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Sat Sri Akal: For Sikh History, there are very few books (if any) that can match Bhai Sangat Singh's "The Sikhs In History". It gives a thorough account of Sikh History and is referenced, so the material is soundly backed up. If you need a very good history of Sikhs, this is the one. Spiritually, I would recommend "Bandaginama" by Bhai Raghbir Singh. It can be downloaded at www.boss-uk.org in the Articles section (site is currently not working...but it is usually down for a small amount of time). It is one of the rare texts on spirituality. Also good is Bhai Randhir Singh's works located on http://www.akj.org.uk/literature/article.asp?sec=Gurmat (I am referring to The Meaning of Sikh Baptism, A Christian Missionary Meets Me, and Hair - A Divine Gift). Truly inspirational and FREE!!!

Sat Sri Akal: This link below gives quite a few documents worth reading. Most worthy are the eyewitness accounts of the event and the government account: http://allaboutsikhs.com/bluestar/index.htm

Sat Sri Akal: Muhammed Sahib, Sikhs are to keep a comb on their person at all times under their turban. This represents a Sikhs committment to keep their hair in clean and maintained form. Yeah, food can get on the beard, but it even gets on the face of those with no facial hair too. We do what they do...make sure our faces are clean after a meal.

Sat Sri Akal: I do not want to detract the discussion from the topic of Sikhs being a separate race but... According to te Old Testament (the Jewish Bible), the Jews were a set group of individuals which all arose from Abraham and his wife, which produced Isaac, who is the Jewish ancestor of all "genetic" Jews. Abraham also had a child by a maid of Abraham's wife because she was unable to conceive before Isaac. This child is Is-mael, who I believe is the ancestor of the Arabs or Palestenians, from which Islam arose. So the Old Testament says that the Jews were a genetic people who were given a religion by the Almighty. This converting into Judaism is a new concept, not one in the Old Testament.

Sat Sri Akal: Cultural yes. Biological and genetic...no. Sikhism has been embraced by many different races (ie. Caucasians, African Americans etc.) The Jews were of one genetic population, and the religion was confined to that particular genetic population (according to the Bible: Old Testament).

Sat Sri Akal: I do agree with what you are saying, Jassa. Personally, I really do not care whether a woman threads, cuts, shaves, burns, slashes or electrocutes (same goes for men). They have yet to learn about a basic requirement of Sikhism and that (hopefully) will come in time. But this statement that Sikhs must comform to the 21st century...I can't tell you how many variations of this theme I have heard to excuse cutting kesh (can't get a job, can't find a person to marry, it was only given as a battlefield uniform and is no longer needed etc.). It gets upsetting to read. Forgive the gushing.

Sat Sri Akal: Here's a URL to an article from the Sikh Naujawan Sabha Malaysia. (http://www.snsm.org.my/library/articles/khalsa_insignia.htm). I do not wish to cut and paste, as the bottom of the page has a copyright symbol. But DO read it. It explains the Nishan Sahib, colors of Sikhism and many other things.

Sat Sri Akal: "Raj bina na dharam challay hay! Dharam bina sabh dlaay mallay hay!" --Gurpratap Surya Granth aun 1, ansu 36 (taken from Parasaraprasna, p. 41) Without [our own] governess duty [principles] can't be adhered to! Without principles [dharama] everything is gone! Our culture is everything I guess! (Post can be found at: http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....7?OpenDocument).

Sat Sri Akal: Will Sikhism survive...? OF COURSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is a quotation of the last words of Guru Harkrishen Sahib before passing out of his physical body - taken from the BOSS website:(http://www.sikhi.org.uk/articles/files/LastWordsOfGuruHarKrishanJee.pdf) Pay particular attention to the last line). Guru Hari Krishan consoled mother and said, "Dear mother, all this is happening according to God's writ. No one can harm Guru Nanak's throne. This is a high and sacred throne that will always distribute spiritual comforts (to the world). What Guru Nanak has founded will stay till eternity and continue to distribute pleasures and comforts. (Guru Partap Suraj)".

Sat Sri Akal: "Fixing their beard with gel & some Fixco etc & Sikh girls started making there eyebrows (threading) Which is quite acceptable for the basic need’s of the 21st century. " What is so acceptable about the above practices? Please enlighten as to how threading (which is essentially "flossing" the hair off your face) is acceptable. Fixo...know many people who use it...but why not keep beard open (unless you have work related issues such as working in surgery). And by the way, what's so different about the 21st century that we have to adapt our Guru Roop? (This is not meant to be an insulting post. If it feels so, I apologize. However, I would like to hear within what context the comments above are made?)

Sat Sri Akal: JT Singh Sahib, I hat to say it, but this is the debate forum. It was meant for (polite) arguements. Teja Singh has been explained. To make this connection that Bhai Randhir Singh was a mindless zombie of Teja Singh is moot. There ARE people who were on the path of Sikhism and fell off it, and Teja Singh was one of them. Once he fell from grace, Bhai Randhir Singh did not associate with him. "...they (SGPC/Singh Sabha Lahore) were created much earlier with the aim of representing Sikhs and Sikh interests to the Colonial regime in British India." The objectives of the Singh Sabha were to re-vitalize Sikhism into its origional form. It started out as a religious movement. As time went on, the organization gained favor among the Sikhs, THEN the organization did present greviences and problems that the Sikh community had to the British. They were a mouthpiece of Sikh greviences to the British, not their hand-maidens. Naamdhari and Nirankari movements and the Singh Sabha Movements have only one thing in common - that they tried to re-ignite Sikhism. All resemblance stops there. The current Rehat Maryada is not some weekend project that was undertaken by the SGPC of then. They invited the top Sikh scholars and prominent Sikh figures of the time to evaluate 100+ Rehitnamas. Each Rehitnama was compared to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib. Whatever was in line with Guru Sahib's teachings were kept. Those which were not were disposed of. This draft was sent overseas (in an era with no airplanes) to get the approval of abroad Sikhs. After 11 years of deliberation, the Rehit Maryada was passed, and was passed at the Guru Panth level. To say that the SGPC just took a pick-axe at it is a grave injustice to the time and effort that it took to make the Rehit.

Sat Sri Akal: First, let us deal with this Teja Singh Bhasaur, aka. Babu Teja Singh. The entire story is that Teja Singh started a Sikh revivalist movement. Bhai Randhir Singh actually took amrit from this group. Note that Teja Singh had NOT started his manmat yet about eliminating Bhagat Bani. among other things. So he and Bhai Randhir Singh were close. Key word: Were. When Bhai Randhir Singh learned that Babu Teja Singh had been excommunicated for his anti-Bhagat Bani parchar, he wrote a letter to Babu Teja Singh saying that he REFUSED to meet Teja Singh until he apologized at the Akal Thakat and was reinstated into the Sikh Panth. Now the point was made that the Singh Sabha Movement (Lahore) was a convenient British organization that was used to "destroy" ancient Sikhism. And what gains did the old SGPC and Akalis get (I use the word old specifically - the olden SGPC and Akalis had the intent to revitalize Sikhism. Any attempts to make a parallel between the Akalis/SGPC of then and now is like comparing day and night). The Singh Sabha Movement Lahore gave countless of its members to jails and beatings at the hands of the British government. The Randhir Singh that the site tries to portray as a British agent spent decades in hard and tortorous jail capitivity of the British. And that is not to talk of the literary battles that the Singh Sabha Lahore was fighting against rampant Christian missionaries, Arya Samaj followers and Sikh movements gone awry, such as the Nirankaris and the Naamdharis. And don't forget those who died trying to free Gurudwaras from those Mahants. How about the Independence of India? Akalis fought pretty hard and sacrificed a lot to kick the British out of India (they at the time thought this would mean that Sikhs would be free…). Why was not Master Britain not able to keep its Singh Sabha slave happy? Now onto the brunt of Sanatan Sikhism: That Sikhism has these sections, of which certain sections did not get Amrit from Guru Sahib. The above poster mentions Bhai Desa Singh. Let us see what Puratan Rehitnama of Bhai Desa Singh says about Amrit and Sikhism (forgive my translation skills, I am not a Punjabi Master): "Rehat Bina Na Sikh Kahavae. Rehat Bina Dar Chota Khavae. Rehat Bina Sukh Kabhu Na Lahe." - Without Rehat one cannot call themself a Sikh. Without Rehat, one suffers injuries. Without Rehat one never attains happiness. "Pratham Rehat Yeh Jaan, Khandae Ki Pahal Chakae. Soe Singh Pardhan. " - First know this Rehat - to take Amrit of Khandae Di Pahal. So is a Sikh created. -Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh. Or how about this quote, from one Bhai Sukha Singh of Krit Gurbilas Patshahi 10: "Bina Shastar Kesan Naran Beddh Jano, Gahe Kaan Ta Ko Kitay Lay Sidhano". Ihahe Mor Agya Suno Hae Pyare, Bina Teg Kesan Divo Na Didarae" - Without Weapons and Keshas, know one to be a cowardly goat, which can be grabbed by the ear and led anywhere. Listen to my advice, my beloved – without a sword and keshas, I (10th Guru Sahib) shall not grant you my company. The Rehatnamas above clearly state that one must be take amrit AND be with a sword to be a Sikh. One must ask themselves, would Guru Sahib want any of his Sikhs to live miserable lives as cowardly goats by withholding amrit from any who wished to be a Sikh? I would think not! The 10th Guru Sahib is even noted as stating, “Rehat Pyari Mujhko, Sikh Pyara Nahin†– That those who followed the Rehat were the Guru’s Beloved, not those who merely called themselves Sikhs. And now for a question for those knowledgeable in Sanatani tradition. Either the website Shastarvidiya or Sarbloh mentioned that Nihungs freely marry Hindus and see it as perfectly normal and compatible thing. Now, Sanatani Sikhism, being above all religious distinctions…would it allow a Nihung to marry a Muslim? Thanks to the sangat for their time and patience.

There are a lot of sites out there that say a lot of things about Sikhism. However, those who have taken amrit are first and foremost Sikhs, not AKJ or Nihung or anything else. Sikhs of the Guru. The Nihung values the art of combat...the AKJ people value doing Kirtan; the malaa of the Nihung is a tegh and shastar, the malaa of the AKJ people is the harmonium and tabla...but BOTH contemplate the other skill too. Behind both is Gurbani and Guru Sahib. Let us never forget that!

The issue of the shastarvidiya AND sarbloh website, however, extends beyond which is the martial art of the Sikhs. Let me note that whatever said below only applies to what I have read, and is analyzed to whatever knowledge I have. It does not reflect a generalization on the Nihungs, as I do not know if these websites are authorized by the Nihungs or not. 1)The point of the Brahma Vishnu and Shiva has been brought up and one of the sangat has stated that these are given as inspiration and not worship. If these three are to be seen as simply inspiration, then it is not made clear. In fact, the website is riddled with images of Vedic avatars and devas. Rather, the way it is portrayed, it seems that they are main objects of worship. The statement is made repeatedly that weapon worship is equivocal to Chandi worship. So to say that the website has no statements that devas and avatars are not worshipped seems at oddds with the blatant use of the pictures displayed on the website. 2)Respect for "Kshytria" Ancestory - Genetically speaking, there are very few Sikhs who had Kshytria ancestors. Most were of the lower castes. However, how one can be proud of Kshytria ancestory is odd. These same Kshytrias stood by and let the Mughals into India without putting up a fight. They even married off their daughters to the Mughals so their territories would not be harmed. The Hill Rajas (also Kshytrias) REFUSED to take amrit from Guru Gobind Singh because Guru Sahib would use the same bowl for the Kshytrias as he did for the Kshytrias, a fact that did not sit well with the Kshytrias. Kshytrias may have been a valiant people in ancient times, but that had mostly faded by Guru Sahib's time. 3)Chatka of Goats - much focus is given to this issue. The Rehat Maryada is quite clear in the matter. If one wants to eat meat, go ahead. 4)Anti-Singh Sabha Parchar - The website attempts to give the impression that the Singh Sabha Movement was British puppetry. However, it was the Singh Sabha Movement that slowly freed the Gurudwaras from Mahants, Mahants that practiced Hindu rituals of idol worship INSIDE Gurudwaras. Countless Singh Sabha people went to jail and fought to get the Sikh Institutions back in Sikh control. It should be noted that the Singh Sabha movement had two parts - one was Singh Sahba Amritsar, which supported Snatani Sikhism and one was Singh Sabha Lahore, which supported the current Tat Sikhism. To give an impression of Amritsar Singh Sabha, here's a bit. One of the founders of that movement was Khem Singh Bedi. Himself being a Bedi, he considered himself a desendent of Guru Nanak, and was not adversed to having people bow down to him. That is one of the reasons that Prof. Gurmukh Singh (founder of Lahore Singh Sabha Movt.) split from Amritsar movement. 5) Anti AKJ Parchar - Suddenly, the site takes a sudden turn and attacks people of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. The site makes alligations that the AKJ are fraud gatka users and are trying to mimic Nihungs with dress. First, nowhere has the AKJ organization made a claim that it teaches Gatka. Its main aim is to do Kirtan, as the name implies. Some members do try to practice some form of martian arts, but they do not claim to be experts (I am not familiar with the claims of this Uptej Singh). Showing pictures of AKJ people doing Gatka and trying to make the connection that they are somehow perpetuating the image that they are Sikhs is weak at best. What is "Nihung" bana? Some Sikhs, in their love for the Guru, copy the dress that they associate the Guru Sahib and his Sikhs used to wear. So what? Have the AKJ people put on this "Nihung" bana and made claims that they are Nihungs? Has the organization stated that it is a Gatka organization? The answer is clearly no. Nihung is not bana, Nihung is a SIKH who has trained in the ways of war. The last thing to be adressed here is basically insult to a Sikh Shaheed, namely Bhai Fauja Singh. Bhai Fauja Singh lead a peaceful protest against the cult of Gurbachan. Gurbachan stated that he, being a Guru, would create the Sat Sitarae (a sick play on the concept of the Panj Pyare). This was an insult to the Sikh Panth. When the protest reached Gurbachan's headquarters, the cultists of Gurbachan fired with guns upon the protestors. The protestors tried to defend themselves as best as possible. Now, can someone tell me what is so "fanatic" about defending yourself? 6)Marijuana (Sukha) - If Sukha in indeed just a painkiller, then I gotta say, there are much more potent pain-killers out there. You got codeine, morphine, fentanyl, etc. But sukha has been ingrained into Nihung practice and it has taken on other meaning. Recent research shows that Marijuana slows the human reflexes and slows decision-making. How would this help on the battlefield is beyond me.

Sat Sri Akal: First time poster here...but watching this Internet Battle for quite a while. I decided to find out something about Nihung Niddar Singh. SO I went to a source that had some experience with Gatka - Nanak Dev Singh Khalsa. What I found out from my e-mail to Nanak Dev Singh was quite interesting. Keep in mind that Nanak Dev Singh published a book on Gatka. His website is www.gatka.de . He told me that once his students held a Gatka demonstration in England. Niddar Singh "crashed" the demonstration and instructed 6 of Nanak Dev Singh's students - armed with different weapons - to attack him. According to Nanak Dev Singh, Niddar Singh disarmed EACH student. So the students called Nanak Dev Singh and told him about this Niddar Singh. Nanak Dev Singh himself flew out to England and undertook training with Niddar Singh for five years. Nanak Dev Singh goes on to say that he has deuled against people of many forms of martial arts (black belt levels) and has been able to beat them with the open handed techniques that Niddar Singh has on the website.