Mithar

Personally I think it is a beautiful story of a person who has not only found a spiritual path but also her soul mate. But this article seems to make it out to be something else. The first article made it seem like there is something strange or weird about this whole thing, the comments by the Goray were no different. The second article posted by KDS was a little better. I hope both of them have a happy and spiritual future together.

Is he a Nihung?

It is a way of restarting a forgotten thread on a discussion forum.

First of all, the gangster culture in BC is by a few Sikh youth who are born and raised in Canada, or atleast have been raised in Canada. In other words, they are western kids much like you. They are not immigrants themselves. You're the one who is putting the Jat label on those gangsters. There are probably Tarkhans, Labanas and Sainis amongst them as well in proportion to their population ratio amongst the Sikhs in BC. I'm not the one living in denial, it is you who is blinding by your sheer hate and phobia of Jats. Your idea of why Jats do not do these jobs back home again shows your ignorance about this matter. First of all, the main reason why Jats do not do these jobs back home is because they do not pay well, they will only make around a 100 rupees a day for back breaking work, where as in the west they will make much more for the same work. Secondly, the construction jobs back home are mainly done by Bhaiyas from UP/Bihar not the so called low castes of Punjab. Many Jats today have already adopted other occupations that have traditionally been occupied by other castes, for example, it is not uncommon to find Jats beginning to do Mistri work on the side like Tarkhans, or the fact that many Jats have started to open up shops(dukaans) which have traditionally been the work of Khatris, Bramins, Banyaas. If the work is profitable, the you will see Jats entering that field.

You havn't witnessed any thing. All you have done is, so and so told me this so it must be true. If anyone challenges your statements which are so full of ignorance and lies you accuse them of being casteist or being loyal of their caste. I've met a few Kenyan Tarkhans in my life so I wont form an opinion about them as you have blindly formed about Jats, but I certainly hope that most of them are not as ignorant and hateful as you are.

you can pretend all you like to act as an expert specializing on the Jat people, rural people of Punjab, immigrants but in the end of the day it just exposes your own ignorance on the matter.

Being an immigrant myself and seeing what it feels like to be an immigrant, I have seen how coconuts act around new immigrants. I have seen that Goray are not as discriminatory as coconuts born and bred here are. Being born and raised here they start to think they are Goray themselves not realizing that from the outside they ARE brown. Whenever I ask parents of these coconut kids of what they did when they came here and they have a similar story of how they originally started off as unskilled labourors eventually learning a skill and becoming successful in their fields and even successful businessmen. Dal Singh, you think it is so easy for an immigrant. They struggle all their lives day and night to establish themselves so their kids can have it easy and not struggle like they did. I was lucky that my father struggled here day and night to establish himself while his family (me, mother, sister and brother) were in India. Originally he did labour, but eventually he started his own business and his struggles paid off and he became successful, he made money and bought a house and called us over to Canada so me and my brother wouldn't have to struggle day and night like he did. I take it as a personal insult like most sons of immigrants would that one of our own would think my father is a donkey, pendu or a peasant just because he wasn't skilled when he originally came here before eventually becoming a success. I'm proud of my father, and I wouldn't give a damn what anyone thinks of him.

Personally speaking, we as Sikhs should not support either they Goray imperialists or the Islamic imperialists. For the last 250 years, the English man has conquered all the peoples in the world due to their imperialism. Goray have started world wars with each other due to imperialism. Our own people along with other peoples of India were a victim of British imperialism. We lost our Raaj and have been struggling since. But that isn't to say that these Muslims are any angels. Before the ascension of the white man, it was these Muslims who were biggest imperialists of all. After a brief decline, the Islamic imperialists are again on the rise ready to take back what their imperialist forefathers had. I say let the Goray and Islamic imperialists fight it out and weaken each other.

Brother, this type of thinking is a new low. Most of the kids who are born in the UK, Canada, US are children of men who were originally laborors, pendus or donkeys as you like you refer to them. Eventually they learned some trade and established themselves. These new pendus, peasents, donkeys or whatever you like to call them will also eventually learn a trade and establish themselves, then they will also have kids like you and other forum members here who will be born and raised in the UK all thanks to some Pendu, donkey or peasant who had to struggle like hell to provide for their family. You have no idea what struggles and pressure new immigrants have to face. You think it is just as easy as that? On one hand they have to learn a trade, establish themselves, provide for their family who are probably in India, then they also have to face discrimination from Goray and even coconut Indians with a "I'm better than you" attitude who look down upon these these new immigrants by calling them pendus, donkeys and peasants completely forgetting that their own fathers and grandfathers were also pendus, donkeys and peasants.

All the rehets are very similar with a few differences. SGPC maryadha is good, but it's just the part of having 5 nitnemi banis instead of 7 that I can't seem to agree with. Taksal's maryadha is also good, it has the 7 nitnemi banis. But yes, Sikhs do need to have a centralized maryadha.

Tony Jee is correct. Many people from India do have a tendency to do gup shup to western kids. They will never act real amongst western kids. Almost everyone(Jats, Tarkhans, Khatris all!) likes to over inflate their influence, jaidaat, pay in job from back home. But I have never come across anyone who has ever said he is a rapist or takes advantage of low caste girls as DalSingh claims. People do all sorts of gap shap, but it doesn't make it true, especially when presented with factual data.

NO! Suicide bombing as it is called by the western media is a form of fighting against an enemy. You need to first understand in what context this is used for. If it is used against civilians then it is against all war ethics. But if it is used against enemy leaders and combatants then it is justified. What Satwant Singh and Beant Singh did was nothing short of what Dilawar Singh did. They knew full well that killing Indira Gandhi was sure death yet they did it. Let us say for example, if a Jew during the 30s or 40s was able to kill Hitler through the act of blowing himself up, would you consider that Jew to be a terrorist or a hero?

Totally agree. Liberals under the leadership of wimp Ignatief has shown that they do not deserve Sikh votes. Sikhs should seriously think about NDP. At least they stand for something even if it will not get them a lot of votes. Conservatives are a party of Goras and support the Gora agenda. The NDP are the party who stand by the minorities when push comes to shove.

Michael Ignatieff has shown consistently that he is a first rate loser. The man has no moral stand. He is the type of man who will bow down to which ever direction the wind blows.

It's very easy to call someone that behind a computer in a western country, especially since that person is no longer alive. You shouldn't judge someone who you don't know about or the circumstances they were in when they did what they did. For us, he is a hero, a Shaheed who stands at the level of Satwant Singh, Beant Singh, Sukha and Jinda.

I could be wrong, but I think Tony Jee might be referring to the Chola with writings from the Kuraan on it that Ahmadis use as a proof that Guru Nanak Dev Jee was a Muslim.

The problem with your argument is that you see everything through the perspective of a westerner. You equate every situation no matter how different to white people and their treatment to non-whites. Yes Punjab has a caste problem, Jats discriminate and I've seen other castes (Tarkhans, Brahmins, Chamars) do it as well to others. Are you trying to deny that Tarkhans of Punjab don't think they are better than others? In Punjab it is no secret how Chamars (despite their crying about caste discrimination) do the same thing to the Churas of Punjab. The Churas are the only ones I can safely say who don't discriminate against others, since they are on the receiving end by all the others, the rest are all (YES! All!) guilty of caste based discrimination. Yet you don't see that since you have never been to a Punjabi village, what you have basically found is a scapegoat in the form of the Jats to take the shared blame of all the castes of Punjab. You so wrongly compare Jats to white people, what about the Tarkhans, Chamars and others who discriminate against the Churas of Punjab? is discrimination and rape a trait of Tarkhans and Chamars as well? For someone who likes to expose Goras so much, you have much in common with them in terms of generalizing an entire people and that too based on ignorance and second hand information. I got only one advise for you brother, please stop basing your info on music videos and second hand information and actually go to Punjab and see the truth for yourself.

The reason I dismiss your statements is because they are far from the reality of the Punjab I have grown up in not because they are contrary to my views. Personally I actually like reading your posts and mostly agree with them. I'm just surprised how a person like you can actually believe in the stuff you have written recently about this topic. Yes, caste problems do exist in Punjab. The problem I have is when you write something so wrong as claiming that rape, corruption, greed, exploitation is a characteristic trait of the entire Jat people. That is pure nonsense and a malicious lie.

I'm not a fan of SGPC, but you have again made statements which are not factual. Firstly, SGPC does not hold the power to excommunicate anyone, Akal Takht does. It is not the Jathadar of the SGPC who excommunicates, but the Jathadar of the Akal Takht who does that. Secondly, no one since the start of SGPC has been excommunicated because of their caste. SGPC is a caretaker organization which is supposed to make sure all the Gurdwaras under it's control are being run in accordance to Maryadha, just like DSGMC does. As Tony jee said, the reason I mentioned DSGMC is because you claimed that the SGPC is corrupt or does wrong things is because it is a Jat trait (which in itself is a very offensive and casteist thing to say), but by that logic of yours other similar large Sikh organizations that are run by non-Jats should not have the same problems that plague Jat dominated SGPC. But if you look at a comparable Sikh organization to SGPC that would be the DSGMC which is quite close to Punjab and they are plagued with the same problems. That alone shows your statement is a false one. You have confirmed what I suspected, all your views about this topic are based on second hand knowledge from people who you meet, so they are not based on first hand knowledge or facts just like your claim that raping women is a Jat trait which Tony Jee refuted using facts and figures. To me it seems you are talking about UP or Bihar rather than Punjab. Many NRI who are born and bred in the west have preconceived ideas about India which are not necessarily based on facts. When a person like me hears of them, I cannot help but shake my head in disbelief and crack a smile at such ignorance. Again brother, I urge you to save some money and live in Punjab for 6 months, especially in the rural Punjab and experience it first hand to get a better understanding of the culture and people there, and you yourself will realize that truth is quite different from what some freshee had taught you about Punjab and it's people.

How is DSGMC any different from SGPC? DSGMC is the biggest Sikh organization after the SGPC. Many people say DSGMC is a mini version SGPC in all respects. They carry out the same functions, Delhi it self carries a large powerful Sikh community, probably the largest after Punjab. DSGMC and SGPC have exactly the same problems. The only difference is, where as SGPC is mainly dominated by rural Jats, the DSGMC is mainly dominated by Urban Khatris. So that in itself disproves your frivolous caste based theories, and shows that our problems are beyond caste or even the rural-urban divide. I'm not defending Jats as you are accusing me. But I do reserve the right I think to correct a brother who is making statements which do not match ground realities in India. You seem to have an unhealthy Jat phobia which is why you eventually bring in "Jats are responsible" in almost every Sikh related thread sort of like how Godwin's law says given some time eventually some people resort to mentioning Hitler or Nazis in any topic or debate.

I'm sorry to say this but the Sikh retaliation during partition was a necessary evil. Muslim violence on Sikhs started way back in 1946 in Pothohar region. My grand mother tells me that they lived in Lyalpur before eventually moving to Amritsar. They say they would wonder why these Pothoharis are moving in 1946, at the time Lyalpur was still relatively untouched from violence. But when Sikhs began moving in mass to east Punjab, living in refugee camps, women abducted, this was too much for the Sikhs of east Punjab to witness who still had not touched their Muslim neighbors. The Muslims of Majha and Doaba region were especially very vocal about Pakistan. The Muslims of Ludhiana had also begun violence against the Sikhs there. Sikhs had to retaliate and clear the land for the Sikhs of west Punjab to settle down, where else were these refugees going to settle down? If the Muslims had remained, it is very likely that Punjab today would have become like Kashmir where the Hindus did not retaliate and allowed the Muslims to remain while the Hindus of Pakistani Azad Kashmir were killed or forced to move. The result was the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits during the late 80s from Kashmir valley and an ongoing movement to join Pakistan all of Jammu and Kashmir state.

True Veerjee. This sort of shows us how puraatan and vartmaan Singhs must have gone through the worst of tortures yet had the Naam Simran on their lips. Ordinary people like us cannot even imagine the spiritual heights of these great souls.

"monopolise"? that alone shows you have no idea how politics works in Punjab. The ground realities in Punjab is much different from what we read about in the English media here in the west. Our problems are very complicated, and believe it or not but Jattness is not the reason. What the problem is in SGPC, the same problem is happening in DSGMC (delhi) which is dominated by Khatri Sikhs, does that mean Khatris are the most evil people in the world? you need to come to Punjab and live there for a year or come more often to realize the ground realities there.

It is amazing, but probably not painful for him. He had probably gained much control over his senses and body.

It seems like every topic there is, you always end up blaming everything on Jats sort of like how some people like to eventually resort to calling some Nazis or Hitler. Jats are to be blamed as much as Khatris, Tarkhans,Ahluwalias etc are to be blamed. Just because the majority of Sikhs coincidentally happen to be of Jat does not mean you can simply hold only Jats as responsible for everything wrong in the universe. It's not so simple as that as you think it is, it's much more complicated that that, and a lot of factors contribute to our problems than simply saying "Jats are responsible". There are some brothers like you who blame Jats for everything, some blame Brahmans for everything. Then there are people who blame people from a certain region in Punjab for all the ills in our society, you can blame all you like, but the blame game wont solve anything. It seems all Sikhs have been doing is blaming each other rather than looking inwards and being true to the Guru's lifestyle. First we need to reform ourselves and see "am I living in accordance to Gurmat? am I a good Sikh?". Reformation of a society starts from the individual level. BTW, Hindus have farmers too.