dalsingh101

I could say the same about caste based phudhus like yourself, who keep dragging the Khalsa down into the realm of 'peasant religion'.

Is it not better to have a transportable identity that gives us (at least a degree of) stability, as quite a fluid and outward bound community - instead of jumping into host communities warped identities in an effort to fit in? Especially when 'indigenous' identities can come (ESPECIALLY in the case of Angry Saxons) wrapped up with a whole lot of very questionable notions.

Exactly, I think seeing so many people from Sikh backgrounds being pretty much indifferent about their faith effects how outsiders see it anyway. If you read up on Moscovici's important work on minority influence, he says one of the key factors that swing the majority to a minority view is the commitment and confidence the minority have in their thing. If that is the case, we'd probably score quite low as a community in this area?

Don't you think we need to learn to keep our existing flock before we contemplate converting others?

Note the belief that we may be on the verge of a Panjabi language renaissance.

I had to share this post by wannabe abiyassi on SS in the Gupt section. Gives a clear window into the issues that preoccupy the young minds of the modern day warrior Khalsa panth.

I don't think this comparison is actually analogous myself. What you are talking about are issues of a more complicated nature. And the truth is that we don't exactly know what dasmesh pita would make of the current situation of the panth with it's majority of monay. As for some Amritdhari's being exclusivist, it's worth bearing in mind that they usually have no problems with monay financial contributions towards Sikh institutes. But even as a mona myself, I can see certain logic behind the position espoused by more kattarh members of the panth. If we are honest, we know dasmesh pita had a strong preference for Amritshak Sikhs and placed them central to the panth. It's only natural that more rehitvaan Sikhs will question and challenge perceived lapses. When you see it on a deeper level, our problem is not one based solely on looks - it has other dimensions in that this look issue was made a central one to Sikhi by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself. Where some Amritdharis mess up is by excessively focusing on the external to the extent that it appears as if the profound issues concerning Sikh internal belief appear to become mere adjuncts. Plus human nature is complex, we are just pathetic ego machines mostly, we even take a faith whose central component is control or suppression of the ego, and use it to do the very opposite to this.........the human disease. Haumai. This issue is more clear cut to me. As from my understanding Sikhi involves the worship of a paradoxically formless, transcendental but at the same time all pervasive being. Being as such, it's easy to argue that the above is retrogressive for Sikhs. Not only that, but how can we ignore the patent fact that larges sections of the Sikh community have consciously and willingly moved away from their Hindu roots due to a whole range of factors. Some people would (quite convincingly in my opinion) argue that there is no point in Sikhs becoming one more strand of a array of beliefs under the Hindu rubric. They could point at a lot of early evidence in Sikh scripture and historical literature that points at a steady and conscious break away from a Hindu identity, and say that a continuing of this trajectory is just a natural phenomena seeing trends that were already established to their logical conclusion. You are right, but also need to factor in that there may well be some theological justification behind the stances certain elites might espouse? It isn't - wasps seem to be arguing about race, Sikhs about beliefs. It gets complicated because issues of 'looks' are entwined within Sikhi itself, especially post 1699. It is interesting to note how whitey came to Panjab and introduced their racialised notions deep into Sikhi with their 'martial races' and 'Aryan invasion' theories. When you look at how the modern caste thing breaks down in the panth today, you can clearly see how these conceptualisations still lurk around in certain people's imaginations effecting how they perceive other Sikhs. More foreigners 'ruining' Britain. Says a lot about indigenous working class brains.

White beach whale attacks dread. Hilarious. Where was this? One thing that really makes me laugh (and cringe!!) is the way certain nonwhites keep going on about how they are 'English' despite the fact that hordes of 'Angry Saxons' vehemently deny this to be true or even possible. That Sunny Hundal is an example of an apna whose taken that route.

Hello folks. A question for the knowledgeable. When we read this well known pauri of Japji Sahib we get a number of variants on the word 'hukam' or divine order (see below). ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਿਨ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਿਹਆ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਿਨ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਿਮ ਿਮਲੈ ਵਿਡਆਈ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਿਮ ਿਲਿਖ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਿਹ ॥ ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਿਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਿਹ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਿਰ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਿਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥ So we seem to have the following. Can anyone help pinpoint the differences between each for us? From my (woefully inadequate) understanding (and I'm likely to be way off here, so be warned and ready to correct!), 1 maybe a female noun? 2 I don;t know. 3 is a verb and 4 is possibly a male plural noun? Please share knowledge. 1) ਹੁਕਮੀ 2) ਹੁਕਿਮ 3) ਹੁਕਮੈ 4) ਹੁਕਮੁ

lol@suryadev

Nah, they love that as it makes what they do okay. It's one of the best things I've read in ages. He is an important figure of black history/literature. Helps globalise our historical knowledge too as what he talks of was happening whilst we were having our issues with whitey. I heard that too. I just don't think nihangs had printing presses. Plus it wasn't warmongering on the Sikh side. They just weren't under any illusions as to the nature of the English. Given their history in India and their duplicity in Sikh politics (curtailing Sikh expansion in Sind for example). They knew the score and were trying to warn about and preempt the inevitable. Yes it is. you can read the first part on scribd here:

Need to read up on that. i know the last witches to be burnt here was in 1682, when our people were just about to throw themselves in a social, military Khalsa revolution. Thanks for the heads up on 1st nation people. I noticed that as well! Like grandpa never speaking of how he saw the mussies pulled off a train, robbed and then thrown into the local canal (after having their throats slit) in retaliation for what was going on in Pakistan. I have recently come across the narrative of a Sikh bibi who was involved in all the repatriation of apneean and sullian after partition (in Panjabi) though. It was a really interesting read. mentioned A LOT of stockholm syndrome going on on both sides. Ps - When I cuss Sikh penduness, realise that I too fall under that rubric!

I meant more of those city types, who detest the sight of their own as they go up in the world. Plenty of them around Canary Wharf for instance. It isn't just Singhs with dastaars they loathe, even monay 'disgust' them. lol I know what you mean. Victorian goray (hell even contemporary gora judging by The Sun) have always had this weird underlying sexual fascination with 'natives' which usually came out as a mixture of drooling and condescending judgments, which conveniently ignored their own highly sexualised fetishism, hypocrisy and whatnot. That being said, some of the less flattering stuff about our lot isn't always lies. The score is simply that they played up our dirt whilst sweeping their own under the rug - which appears to be a well used tool in white western culture, when it comes to dealing with the 'natives'. I'm thinking all communities have broad characteristics, and as ours became increasingly rural, it became less intellectual. Pendus even now seem to have an indifference (even antipathy) to literary pursuits (unless directly related to some strategy for status upliftment) which is pretty indicative. Read the narrative of Frederick Douglas it's pretty short but it gives you a clear insight into what black Americans had to go through to learn how to read, when it was pretty much banned for them. The other thing to note is the date of the narrative. It directly corresponds to the period when our own people were having their wars with whitey. Your point about oral history is interesting but we have to bear in mind that by this time people like Rattan Singh Bhangu had already realised the importance of recording this, hence the creation of Panth Prakash. I'm translating a piece by Ganda Singh that might shed light onto the matter, hopefully I'll get that out around the new year. That point you made about having to go back to the start because we don't use accumulated knowledge (as is typically passed down through literature) is an important observation though. That's why even today we are still in a position to be politically exploited by outsiders. I've never heard this. I doubt it too. The nihangs seems to have gone seriously introverted after the wasp wars, something that continues till this day. I think you may have got the Ghadrittes mixed up with post annexation nihangs? To grasp history we must also understand the role and use of 'silence' in all narratives. These serve various utilitarian purposes. As a rule, it's usual that dark stuff that gets mentioned in passing is usually indicative of a much higher prevalence of that type of stuff taking place. Take white America's portrayal of teh 'good old pioneering days' as a clear example where savagery towards 'Injuns' is all but written out. I watched that Che Guvera movie recently and there was a bit where it shows how he would not give illiterate people positions of command in his force, no matter how good a fighter they were. He explained it in terms of them being easily manipulable by the educated as a result of their ignorance. It's like they say, the strong rule the weak, and the smart rule the strong. Yes, we may have been strong, but maybe we need to face up to the fact that cognitively speaking, we weren't that smart. That's what explains the jaw dropping naivety and credulous behavior that had apnay allowing goray to fall for all these pro-Anglo 'prophecies' and allowing them to manipulate the religion to the extent of intertwining vows of loyalty to the British monarch in the Amrit sanchar ceremony and incorporating all manner of puritan into Sikhi. I just read Panth Prakash recently, and the portrayal of the Sikh community therein (by the grandson of top ranked SInghs no less!) is miles away from the puritan image as reflected in Bhai Vir Singh's famous historical novels.

Suryadev! Talk about deflection. I was talking about red necks on a street level and you went into Anglo bumlicking mode! lol Anyway, this video here reflects the 70s/80s and should also serve to remind all you young arse lickers of how things can change, if the wind blows that way. http://www.twitpic.com/5exbfg

Most of you have probably seen this. Brought back sweet memories of the 1980s to me. lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i47HoiM0Au8&feature=player_embedded#!

I remember reading about an eyewitness account of a red Indian massacre too and how the goray were cutting off female genitalia and wearing them like badges and cutting off breasts to make 'tobacco pouches'. The whole disparity between the way the western world haps on about the 'savagery' of the 'natives' whilst consciously negating their own beastly behavior through willful silence needs to be understood by all apnay and especially apneean, who frequently take this 'orientalism' characterisation on board and start to view ethnic men along these lines themselves. What has become apparent to me is that our people ARE out and out pendus when it comes to literacy and writing. There are thousands of accounts of the mutiny from the Delhi residents who witnessed it, but yet again, apnay have done the Sikh unparh special and failed to create narratives. We can explain the dearth of witness accounts of the 18th centry due to the make up of most of the Singhs i.e. rural and unsophisticated and the touch and go nature of existence then, but how can it be excused in the 19th century? Even contemporary black American slaves in America left plenty of detailed and well written narratives of their experiences? The mind boggles. lol You lost me there. I didn't know nihungs did anything like this? If anything, 'purbias' (easterners) were pretty much loathed by Panjabis. It isn't really mentioned (probably due to our famous conservativeness on such matters) but it is almost inconceivable that they (the sepoys who accompanied the honkys) never went on any raping and pillaging spree on the back of British success in the Anglo-Sikh wars. I don't think Duleep Singh had anything to do with it. The truth is that most Sikhs by then were not religiously or ideologically motivated, it was economics that drove them. It was the 'marauding instincts' in some of our more base brothers than dictated behaviour. Plus let's be frank, our farmers have had an inferiority complex to goray since the fall of the Sikh empire and many would still gladly be their pampered pets of choice. That being said, I think revenge against poorbias was one determining factor but the failure to give whitey a boot up the arse when they could have so easily seems to be the the first manifestation of that gullible, lulloo, credulous, hungry for love and acceptance type nature so many of our people so frequently demonstrate towards goray even today. lol

How to convince Muslims about Sikhi!! How about trying to convince Panjabis born into SIkhi about Sikhi! lol

When I read this one I can't but help cringe at the overt, unabashed sycophantic, straight simpleminded lullooness on display.......talk about taking the bait. forget the hook, line and sinker......this guys swallowed half the rod as well. What a dick.

Sounds good: http://apnaorg.com/articles/roop-2/

Well, I've only really started to progress in my Panjabi very recently. And that is with a LOT of effort. I know some people seem to be natural linguists in that they can pick up languages really quickly, retain vocabulary, remember grammar nuances etc. I'm certainly not like that. I do find older granths like Suraj Prakash etc a challenge. I mean how do you find the text I posted (and tried to translate) from Suraj Prakash Granth earlier for instance? http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/14487-suraj-prakash-text-regarding-muslay-balatkaars/page__fromsearch__1