SikhKhoj

There are people who claim Sarbloh was written by Guru Gobind Singh (albeit in a previous incarnation). There used to be people who seriously believed the Sau Sakhi was written by Guru Gobind Singh about a century back (Kahan Singh Nabha talks about this). There are who ascribe many granths to Guru Gobind such as the Puranmasi Katha, Prem Sumarg, etc
Truth is that we are gullible as a community in general, just associate anything with the Gurus and you will have fools ready to pay millions for it or worship it. Anything with the title Pt 10 was seriously considered as a Dasam Pita Bani just because of the heading - and mind you, I personally know dozens of people who still think that way. This fact was severely misused by our enemies and corrupt people, read the Naveen Panth Parkash to read how the son of Sukha Singh Patna (Granthi) actually imitated Guru Gobind Singhs handwriting and sold the writings for lots of money.
But since most of the compositions seem to have been composed in the Gur Darbar the Dasam Granth seems to have had more general authenticity over the years. But that is one evolution, it is in this aspect that you can not deny the Amrit Sanchar proofs from within Bansawlinama. You say 'thats another topic' but the title says 'Bansawlinama on DG' and since Amrit Sanchar has no DG banis it is very important to notice a trend and actually understand why and how DG became so popular.
If people like Kesar Singh believed in the 1760s that DG was by Guru Gobind Singh they also on the other hand showed Amrit Sanchar had no Dasam Banis. The Mukatnama from around the same time equally gives no DG Bani in the Nitnem. Theres a dozen sources confirming about the Nitnem. (don't quote unauthentic Rehats such as the so called 1695 Nand Lal rehat for Jap Jaap - Pyara Padam himself published them and said they're all later writings and not of Nand Lal or the respected others)

DG gained more importance in the late 18th and early 19th century because that is when things such as DG Banis started appearing in the nitnem, and DG Banis were added to Pahul. Even if we accept the flawed source of Guru Kian Sakhian for 5 Banis (including DG) it means no source prior to 1790 mentions those Banis. Even the Prem Sumarg that is so admired on this forum does not give Dasam Banis for Amrit Sanchar, which leads me to accept that it might have been written somewhere before the 1780s.

DG did not gain prominence because it was Dasam Krit but because it was made part of Nitnem and Amrit Sanchar. And that is how our community got fooled by having our main ceremonies depend on the Dasam Granth - and even today people still do not dare to question DG because our main ceremonies depend on it. So it is a complicated issue and needs full assessment. You can't just say Kesar Singh accepts DG banis as Dasam Guru Krit and leave out the fact that despite existence of DG there was  no DG in Amrit Sanchar which shows a evolution to include more DG (this is not a conspiracy theory, it is a fact you can establish by reading and taking notes of all manuscripts and you will notice the evolution yourself).
 

There are people who claim Sarbloh was written by Guru Gobind Singh (albeit in a previous incarnation). There used to be people who seriously believed the Sau Sakhi was written by Guru Gobind Singh about a century back (Kahan Singh Nabha talks about this). There are who ascribe many granths to Guru Gobind such as the Puranmasi Katha, Prem Sumarg, etc
Truth is that we are gullible as a community in general, just associate anything with the Gurus and you will have fools ready to pay millions for it or worship it. Anything with the title Pt 10 was seriously considered as a Dasam Pita Bani just because of the heading - and mind you, I personally know dozens of people who still think that way. This fact was severely misused by our enemies and corrupt people, read the Naveen Panth Parkash to read how the son of Sukha Singh Patna (Granthi) actually imitated Guru Gobind Singhs handwriting and sold the writings for lots of money.
But since most of the compositions seem to have been composed in the Gur Darbar the Dasam Granth seems to have had more general authenticity over the years. But that is one evolution, it is in this aspect that you can not deny the Amrit Sanchar proofs from within Bansawlinama. You say 'thats another topic' but the title says 'Bansawlinama on DG' and since Amrit Sanchar has no DG banis it is very important to notice a trend and actually understand why and how DG became so popular.
If people like Kesar Singh believed in the 1760s that DG was by Guru Gobind Singh they also on the other hand showed Amrit Sanchar had no Dasam Banis. The Mukatnama from around the same time equally gives no DG Bani in the Nitnem. Theres a dozen sources confirming about the Nitnem. (don't quote unauthentic Rehats such as the so called 1695 Nand Lal rehat for Jap Jaap - Pyara Padam himself published them and said they're all later writings and not of Nand Lal or the respected others)

DG gained more importance in the late 18th and early 19th century because that is when things such as DG Banis started appearing in the nitnem, and DG Banis were added to Pahul. Even if we accept the flawed source of Guru Kian Sakhian for 5 Banis (including DG) it means no source prior to 1790 mentions those Banis. Even the Prem Sumarg that is so admired on this forum does not give Dasam Banis for Amrit Sanchar, which leads me to accept that it might have been written somewhere before the 1780s.

DG did not gain prominence because it was Dasam Krit but because it was made part of Nitnem and Amrit Sanchar. And that is how our community got fooled by having our main ceremonies depend on the Dasam Granth - and even today people still do not dare to question DG because our main ceremonies depend on it. So it is a complicated issue and needs full assessment. You can't just say Kesar Singh accepts DG banis as Dasam Guru Krit and leave out the fact that despite existence of DG there was  no DG in Amrit Sanchar which shows a evolution to include more DG (this is not a conspiracy theory, it is a fact you can establish by reading and taking notes of all manuscripts and you will notice the evolution yourself).
 

Bhagat Singh, Kab Raam was not a pen name of Guru Gobind Singh. The argument that Ram, Shyam and Gobind are synonyms and were therefore used as a pen name by Dasam Pita is weak and unfound. Kahan Singh Nabha accepts Ram and Shyam as part of the 52 Poets (see Mahan Kosh). If you look properly you will find information on who Kab Raam was.
Secondly, Bansawlinama was written in 1769, about 60 years after Guru Gobind Singh. If we look at the history of previous Mehls, Banis were circulated under the names of M6, M7 and so on during the Guruships of the respective Gurus themselves. This also happened during the earlier Gurus times too, which prompted the Guru to utter the Shabad 'satgur bino hor kachi hai bani'. Now if we keep that in mind, that some Sikhs were fooled by during the Gurus times themselves that can't it happen 60 years after?
And one thing is interesting; Bansawlinamas author was aware of the Dasam Granth compositions and even quotes from them but he still does not mention any Dasam Granth Bani in Amrit Sanchar ceremony. What say BhagatSingh? We're going the heretic way haha.

The Dasam Granth bir supposedly written by Mani Singh with every SGGS Bani sorted author wise and combined with Dasam Granth has been researched tirelessly by scholars.
The Bir is dated 1713 but that has been doubted because the dating was written in different ink and handwriting in one of the corners. The history of the bir is also dubious.

There are other 2 things that blow the Mani Singh Birs historicity is that a dohra of Poet Alam is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh & it contains extraneous compositions like Hakikat Rah Mukaam Raje Shivnabh Ki before the Raagmala.
The scribe seems to be ignorant of Sikhi by the above mistakes and thus could not have been Bh. Mani Singh.

Good to see that you try to think autonomously Bhagat Singh and do not believe anything just like sheep.

There is an 18th century book that confirms that parts of Dasam Granth were commissioned and not written by Guru Gobind Singh.
Its good to read these (weird) theories of yours, they often find some support in old sources just like you guessed that Guru Hargobind might have given Khande ki Pahul and... it is mentioned in a puratan source too.

So Guru Hargobinds four battles, Guru Har Rais skirmish were fought without bir ras?

Charitropakhyan film has already been made. Watch MIRCH, a Bollywood movie which is based on ancient Indian stories (its not as explicit as the Charitars) Since Charitropakhyan offers mostly old recycled stories, the ancient stories featured in Mirch are actually very similar to the tales in Charitropakhyan because they have the same source.

What does my picture show? Sikhs reading 10 different Granths? No. Its all of them reading GGS. Same way in the painting of singh123... it could be two GGS.
 
 

Good to see that you try to think autonomously Bhagat Singh and do not believe anything just like sheep.

There is an 18th century book that confirms that parts of Dasam Granth were commissioned and not written by Guru Gobind Singh.
Its good to read these (weird) theories of yours, they often find some support in old sources just like you guessed that Guru Hargobind might have given Khande ki Pahul and... it is mentioned in a puratan source too.

On punishments

A Sardar, a German and a Pakistani got arrested consuming alcohol which is a severe offence in Saudi Arabia, so for the terrible crime they are all sentenced 20 lashes each of the whip.

As they were preparing for their punishment, the Sheik announced:
"It's my first wife's birthday today, and she has asked me to allow each of you one wish before your whipping."

The German was first in line; he thought for a while and then said: "Please tie a pillow to my back."

This was done, but the pillow only lasted 10 lashes & the German had to be carried away bleeding and crying with pain.

The Pakistani was next up. After watching the German in horror he said smugly: "Please fix two pillows to my back."

But even two pillows could only take 15 lashes & the Pakistani was also led away whimpering loudly.

The Sardar was the last one up, but before he could say anything, the Sheikh turned to him and said:

"You are from a most beautiful part of the world and your culture is one of the finest in the world. For this, you may have two wishes!"

"Thank you, your Most Royal and Merciful Highness," Sardar replied.

"In recognition of your kindness, my first wish is that you give me not 20, but 100 lashes."

"Not only are you an honorable, handsome and powerful man, you are also very brave." The Sheikh said with an admiring look on his face.

"If 100 lashes is what you desire, then so be it" And what is your second wish?" the Sheikh asked.

Sardar smiled and said, "Tie the Pakistani to my back" !!!
"SINGH IS KING"....."

This author agrees with most of the assertions in my very first post.

 

No. Hindu attacks on Sikhi started way before partition, remember Arya Samaj?
 

During the times of the Gurus and early period after (till about Baba Deep Singh) contacts were maintained with the Sangats established by Guru Nanak throughout the world. There were Gurdwaras in far away places like the Arab countries, Uzbekistan, Nepal and the east (Assam etc). The arabic bir supposedly prepared by Baba Deep Singh could not have been for Punjabi Sikhs living in Arab lands, that does not make sense. It was most perhaps for the Arab Sikhs living there. Sayed Prithipal Singh talks about an Arabic Japji he saw in Arabia. Our historical sources talk about Gurdwaras sponsored by local Muslim rulers in Arabia.
I think somewhere between the period of severe persecution (Ghallugharas) contacts were slowly lost, so till the 20th century only small communities of Arabic, Iraqi & other non Punjabi Sikhs survived, which by now might have completely vanished. Just because there were over a 100 Arabic Sikh families in 1930 does not mean that the numbers of Arabic Sikhs was always insignificant, Arabic sources discovered by Syed Prithipal talk about significant proportions of Arabs adopting Sikhi during and just after Guru Nanaks visits. If Qazi Rukn Deen could've been persecuted, just imagine what would've happened to other Arabic Sikhs? 

There is no source to back this up by Ahmadis claim Guru Nanak had 20 million followers all over when they left their body.

Neo, can you move the last few posts regarding Guru Tegh Bahadur & rebellion to another topic?
Dhanvaad.

Just like Shivajis teacher met Guru Hargobind, the leader of the Satnamis did meet Guru Tegh Bahadur. But whether the rebellion had any support from the Guru is not known till now. 

Regarding the Satnamis I have also read conflicting statements. But some years ago puratan birs of Guru Granth Sahib were found in some of their villages. So it is highly possible that they were Nanakpanthis and lost touch with Sikhi overtime. It is funny how we have lost so many Sikhs due to our sheer neglect.

Paapi, create another topic if you wish to discuss the current shortcomings in our Panth. This topic is on the historical aspect.

Very important and interesting quote from 1969 by SS Kohli.
 
 

We have to talk about Sikhs here and there, the number of sangats per state because we simply do not have demographics.

Dabistan says this: "ln short during the time of each Mahal (Guru) the Sikh increased till in the reign of Guru Arjan Mal they became numerous and there were not many cities in the inhabited countries where some Sikh were not to be found."
It is an important statement. It does say 'some' Sikhs but also 'countries'. 
 
​There were many, thats the only thing we can conclude safely from the many Sangats established all over India. The Sangats established by Guru Nanak and later the Manjis were quite widespread, information is available about many but many have since been converted into temples and other things. SS Kohli who visited nearly whole of India in the footsteps of Guru Nanaks udasis met lacs of Nanakpanthis all over India in the 1960s. I'll be posting a quote soon.
 
Invalid point. Starting in the 8th century, Muslims invaded and raped the Indian subcontinent for centuries. Despite 800 years of brutalities only 30-35% of the Indian population is Muslim (if you count India, Pak and Bangladesh). So just because it took 3-5 centuries for Iran or Syria to convert, you can not conclude that it wasn't mostly force. 

The non Sikh sources do not confirm the Raja Shiv Nabh, the name seems to be more of a description (King who was devotee of Shiv?). But absence of non Sikh sources should not be taken as a definite proof that this did not happen. There existed a tablet in the name of Guru Nanak (memory of  his visit) till last century but it has since dissapeared apparently.
But I don't have many reasons to doubt it, many rulers converted during the times of Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh. Raja Rattan who gifted the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh was a Sikh since 4 generations (since Guru Nanak), another royal family near Katihar  (Bihar) also had a Gurdwara in their palace, Bhagat Peepa was a king... Ofcourse just because many kings became Guru's disciples it does not mean Shiv Nabh did too (or if he even existed).

It happened all over the world, descendants did 'convert' back to their original faith in many cases. The most obvious and undeniable example are the many Sindhis who, especially after partition, have become mainstream Hindus instead of Nanakpanthis. Ofcourse the few Nanakpanthi Sindhis still exist with idols of Guru Nanak or Maharaj Parkash. If it can happen in India, near our nucleus Punjab, then it could've definitely happened in far off lands like Sri Lanka.
Perhaps as Nanakpanthis they're sense of 'seperateness' was not as great as in the Khalsa (niarapan) thus they slowly merged back with the dominant religion of those areas or their ancestors.
 
 

​Brother actually there was a queen who converted at the time of Guru Nanak Maharaaj, her name was Gurjan. Rattan Rai, the king who gifted the elephant was her great grandson. So technically they were Sikhs since Guru Nanaks time.

1. Post 20th century the Singh Sabha mindset has hurt the 'Sikh' numbers by sidelining and ignoring the Sehajdharis and Nanakpanthis.
For example: There was  a time when nearly all non Muslim Sindhis were Nanakpanthis, but the radicalisation post Singh Sabha made them move away. Ofcourse many of them also venerated Jhule Lal besides Guru Nanak Ji but still.
Years ago I was also shocked at the 2001 census having only 20k Sikhs for Bihar, the birth place of Guru Gobind Singh. But since I have discovered that Bihar once had a quite significant population of Sikhs (Nanakpanthis), which withered due to our own neglect and partly the Udasi sadhus 'reverting' to Hinduism post SGPC to prevent their Dharamshalas from getting under SGPC control.
Even today some indigenous Sikhs of Bihar can be found near Lakhmipur and other areas visited by Guru Tegh Bahadur.
2. I also used to believe that most Sikhs inhabiting foreign countries were of Punjabi descent, but I think a critical reading of the Janamsakhis is needed to ascertain this. The person who gave the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a native Assami King, his ancestors having converted at the times of Guru Nanak.  The Raja Shivnabh of Sri Lanka also converted. More than a hundred Nanakpanthi native Arab families existed in 1930, Sikh since Guru Nanaks times (source: Mushtaq Hussain alias Prithpal Singh). Remember Salas Rai Johri the jeweller? His descendants are Nanakpanthis but in dire need of parchaar just like many other tribes and people but our SGPC is doing nothing, in a few generations they will also be back to Hinduism. Bihar used to have above 300 Dharamshalas, all with native Bihari Sikhs, such as Bhai Bhagwan during Guru Har Rais time (ex Buddhist).
While one may not take this statement too seriously but the Dabistan also talks of Sikhs living in most corners of the world. But you could argue that it talked of Punjabi Sikhs, which I doubt but fair enough.
3. So from the above we can assume that lots of non Punjabi Sikhs used to exist. But where did they all go?
a) reverted back over generations due to lack of parchaar, just as we are seeing right now with Johris.
b) many of them were not in Khalsa form and thus were neglected
 
4. We did not forcibly convert others. While forcing is the un Sikh way, I wish more was done to convert non Sikhs during the Misl and Ranjit Singh Kaal, but sadly we are too secular... We are even butt hurt at ex Sikh Christians returning back to Sikhi to avoid political disturbances in Punjab. This explains why we are only 10-20% of the total Punjabi population.
5. Indian census is not reliable, they do not count poor tribal Sikhs as Sikhs, who are atleast 2-3 million in number. Search for Sikligar, Vanjara, Lobana, Johri, etc.
 
 

Does this forum allow discussing the authorship of the Dasam Granth?