Narsingha

For those wanting a vegetarian Khalsa: ‘How can vegetarianism work where there is constant war? How can a Vegetarian Panth survive there? How can vegetarians survive there, where there is daily war, daily bloodshed? There you might have to survive by drinking the enemy’s blood. There are such difficult circumstances. In Banda Bhadur Bairagi’s Panth were Sadhus. How could they know of this?’ (‘Pracheen Panth Prakash - Stik’, by Shaheed Rattan Singh Bhangu, translated by Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh, Pa. 377-378) from: http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/chatka4.html

Something to think about....for those harassing the poor little Goat. ‘An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride, The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either, Humble is the goat it gains honour in the here after and this world, In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged, It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts, Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder, From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru]. With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung, Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort. The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’ (Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Var 23, Pauri 16’) from: http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/chatka2.html ...respect the sacrifice of the Goat!! :twisted:

I guess it ends here... Your pathetic attempts at referring to as as "Nangs" wont get you very far. Try as you may to come across as being intellectual, you have failed miserably. When you can stop the slander, and personal insults, and threats, then expect an answer. People such as yourselves even go as far as to make up malicious lies simply to malign the character of those who u consider a threat to the AKJ ideology. The moderators seem to allow individuals such as "Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa" using the derogatory term "admin cut" to refer to us and yet claim to ask for a civilised debate. This fake Tarna Dal Nihang called "Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa" claims not to be slandering or attacking people's character, yet the terms he use prove otherwise. Even more entertaining is that you claim to be affliliated with the "Tarna Dal". The Tarna Dal is subordinate to the Budha Dal. By insulting us, and referring to Nihang Nidar Singh, Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh Ji, and myself as "Nangs", you have proven you are FAKES yourselves as you have no respect for the Budha Dal either. You are the real Nangs by your actions. jokers.. :roll: www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya will now become the voices and the truth will speak for itself. If you consider that we are "backing away", trust me we are not. As time will show, this is simply the beginning of what is to come. tata darlings... Mod's Note: We already edited his post UK nihangs instead of ----- . So its time to be serious and have intellectual debate.

Would you have me post an article that is meant to be on Sarbloh.info on this thread simply to please Bikramjit? Sorry but the desires of Bikramjit are not important enough for me to give him an exclusive peek. The answer may be simple, but if you do not know the answer, why would you assume the answer is just as simple? Simple questions rarely result in simple answers. Sanatan Sikhi, unlike mainstream Sikhi isnt a series of "do's" and "dont's"...it caters for the real world. As I said, there will be an article addressing Bikramjit's question on www.sarbloh.info. If you cannot wait, I, or lalleshvari can give u a reading list so you can research for yourself.

Unfair? Are we stopping you from seeking the answers for yourselves? Most of the texts we use for the websites are easily available to anyone who has access to a Punjabi Bookstore/website. Just because you cant get answers on a plate (like you're used to), doesnt mean you blame others for your laziness and accuse me of "homai". :roll: "and atittues like that will ultimetely ruin the good work this forum as done till now" ...thats funny.

"...but has been seen buying chickens from Sainburys supermarket!! " ..please keep Sainsbury's out of this The End.

A simple question, which Bhai Balbir Singh Nihang once asked some Sikhs: "Why would you want to ignore Guruji's Hukam just to please yourself? Is this not manmat?" ...he was referring to the Hukam being the RAAG mentioned by Guru Maharaj that is placed before most Shabads within Adi Guru Durbar. Why would Guru maharaj go to such great lengths to arrange Adi Guru Durbar in Raags, and then place the Raag BEFORE the Shabad? Guru Maharaj in some cases even gives more importance to the RAAG by placing it above the Shabad which may contain His OWN name, ie, Nanak. Would you rather not do something, than end up doing something against Gurmat? The reason AKJ do not accept or understand the relevance of Raagmala or dont bother paying attention to the Raag is because, bottom line, they HAVE no Raag Vidiya and NO knowledge of Gurmat Sangeet or traditional musical instruments. If they did, then we would not see them using the Vaja (an Italian instrument, not Sikh), or sheney, and their entire kirtan would be sung in Raag. Its really that simple...the facts, practices and the AKJ multimedia databse speak for themselves

Shyam, are you accusing the Taksal of creating a fake lineage to Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh ji? Also, your comments on http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...?t=619&start=60 Regarding the Raagmala also accuse Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji's work against anti-Raagmala factions as being non-sensical. Are you suggesting Baba Gurbachan Singh and Baba Kartar Singh were wrong in their stance with regards to Raagmala too and also are accused of creating a fake lineage? Please clarify. Could the Taksal experts please point me to a txt/resource on this lineage issue (which was the original question of the thread)

Mod's Note: ----------- Edited--------------- No sarcasm please!!!!!!!

When a child is born, does it know what religion it belongs to? ..if it does not have a faith then, the who decides what faith the child should follow? ..who's right is it to decide the fate of a child? ..is it destiny what faith a child follows? or is it something imprinted on the child by its surroundings? Most people today cannot even adhere/speak the truth yet claim to be such great followers of their respective faiths. Why not teach a child to simply speak the TRUTH? ...the essence of all faiths.

Shyam (a well chosen name), do you also wish to get the Taksal involved by insulting Baba Gurbachan Singh ji? You fail to forget the AKJ were never able to question the works of Baba Gurbachan Singh ji with regards to the Raagmala. It is only a matter of time before Baba Gurbachan Singh ji's works are translated into English and revealed to the world. "Singh 132 wrote that the debate of Ragmala has been going on even before Bhai Randhir Singh and this is why he presented the proof of its rejection in Kavi Santokh Singh’s works. This does not mean that one has to accept everything he has written. " - Shyam Why would Singh132 present Kavi Santokh's work as "proof of its rejection" and then say you shouldnt accept everything Kavi Santokh Singh has written? Are we to assume by this statement that....if the AKJ say a portion of text is acceptable because it complies with their thinking, then its automatically legitimate? And, if it goes against AKJ philosophy then one shouldnt "accept everything he has written"? Please enlighten the sangat. It appears that the AKJ find it hard to stick to historical truths in their entirity and simply borrow what they see fit, and dismiss what they find unappealing... ...so these are the Sikhs who claim to follow the "true rehit" (quote from www.akj.org).

narinder, try not to make the debate a personal one, and mentioning people's names and locations wont make your comments any more credible. :roll: Or are you hoping that mentioning names and locations will deter people from questioning the AKJ and get intimidated by you and the AKJ? Grow up. 8) Secondly, you seem have simply dismissed the FACTS placed in front of you, and to want to divert the attention away from the AKJ towards Nihangs. You even go as far as accusing me of "manipulation". Is this what you call it when someone presents hard facts? :arrow: Stick to the issue narinder. Singh 132 presented Kavi Santokh's work as what the AKJ consider as evidence against the Raagmala. :!: Now, I have questioned why you do not accept what Kavi Santokh Singh said with regards to Guruji drinking Sukha, the authenticity of Nihangs and Akalis. :!: If you do not wish to submit Kavi Santokh Singh's work as being anti-Raagmala and go back on your discussion, then do so. But, please present your next EVIDENCE. :!:

Singh132 It appears you/AKJ are now faced with a choice a) accept Kavi Santokh Singh ji's words and consider the Raagmala as not being Gurbani reject them and consider Kavi Santokh Ji as being incorrect. Selecting option a) means accepting Guruji took Sukha (cannabis) and acknowleding Akalis and Nihangs as being Guru Maharaj's institution (and logically accepting Sukha as being part of Sikh maryada). Selecting option means your case against the Raagmala using Kavi ji's text has to be rejected. Incidentally, one can present many more quotes from Kavi Santokh Ji's works that are far more detrimental to AKJ ideology, not just the Raagmala. (we have plenty more quotes with regards to Guru Maharaj, Sukkha, Akalis, and Nihangs in addition to those ALREADY presented on Sarbloh and Shastar Vidiya Websites aside from Kavi ji's works). I would like to know now where the AKJ stand, and which other past credible historian they would like to mention who is anti-Raagmala.

"A work that's that recent can be traced and the originals are available. " -Singh 132 Thank you for saying this and accepting Kavi Santokh Singh's work as being genuine. I now humbly quote from the same text: "Guru Ji [Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said thus from his mouth: "Bring us Sukha [cannabis] and black pepper. I have spent a long time without Amal [drugs]. I desire to take some." from Siri Guru Partap Suraj Prakash, 1843, Kavi Santokh Singh, expugnated by Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Vol 14, Page 5920) That is an extract of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji speaking to an individual named "Goolaba" Kavi Santokh Singh then continues to speak in the same paragraph: "Happily Guru [Gobind Singh ji] quenched his thirst. Being pleased he gave a blessing [to Goolaba]. In the Panth Khalsa you [Goolaba] are in, dressed like you, and of great character like you, called Nihangs there will be many Akalis." ....from Siri Guru Partap Suraj Prakash, 1843, Kavi Santokh Singh, expugnated by Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Vol 14, Page 5920) So, it appears, Kavi Santokh Singh Ji gives evidence that Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji drank Sukha (cannabis) and has also mentioned the NIHANGS and AKALIS, hence confirming them as being an authentic Sampardah (an institution blessed by the GURUS directly). If I have in anyway misquoted, please let me know, indeed, I have given the page numbers for you to check yourself (as I am sure you will). If the AKJ are willing to use Kavi Santokh as a genuine historian, then, can they now also accept these facts with regards to Akali Nihang Singhs, and Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji taking Sukha?

Can I use your excuse and claim that this text too has been doctored in the 19th century?

"It seems more like a nihang and taksaal gang up on Bhai Randhir Singh and akj. " -narinder Pls stop trying to play the victim. Only truths are being revealed, but the AKJ seem to be retaliating by revealing people's names and addresses on the internet instead of presenting their case There are even rumours of an "AKJ hitlist" of which I am currently at the top :wink: Tragic behaviour from so-called "Sikhs" of the Panth (..assuming here that we accept their claim that they are under the umbrella of the Akal Takht). Yet, the AKJ still wish not to be labelled as being "extermist". For a long time (over 150 years) , people have been insulting, spreading rubbish about the Nihangs, Udasis, Nirmalas, and Seva Panthis in order to paint them as anti-Sikh. The way to combat this is to reveal TRUTHS, FACTS and DIRECT LOGIC and with OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE. The AKJ however, seem to resort to blindly dismissing anything that touches a nerve (the product of self-concoted ignorance), doctoring posts on AKJ forums, censoring posts on forums, attacking/threatening individuals, and bringing up 1984. "This debate has been going on in Panth well before British, Bhai Randhir Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bindra jatha, etc. They just presented opinions. " -narinder If you have actually READ Baba Gurbachan Singh ji's work, you would see that he has presented SCRIPTURAL and HISTORICAL evidence, and his "opinions" as you suggest are LOGICAL deductions based upon presented facts. The least you can do is stop insulting the works of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji and Kavi Santokh Singh ji by spreading untruths about their work.

Bikramjit, as yet all you have done is insult me, nothing else. So, try to remove your God-complex. We have stated on the websites that if anyone can refute the facts presented on the websites they are welcome to do so, and if we are proved incorrect we will make ammends. (I guess you missed reading that bit too right?) :roll:

Please remember, the only reason I am inviting discussion here is because I wish to do so, I may equally choose not to respond completely. Use this chance wisely www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya will have their own forums in the future, so please dont expect that I am obliged to answer you or anyone else here. :wink:

As I said, ur question will be answered on the website, sow ait for it. If you think this is unfair...sue me.

Ignorance is bliss

Still waiting for AKJ to comment on the photographs

"admin cut, now you agree with baba gurbachan singh? even though he was clearly against your use of chatka and bhang? " - (some morong calling himself) Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa Errm, try not to lower the tone of the thread, and secondly state your proof for such a claim.

As Sikhs, scholars of the truth, we have a right to question anything within Sikhi, so why not the authenticity of Dam Dami Taksal? If we do not question, we leave the door open to igorance. People have questioned the authenticity of Udhasis, Nirmalas, Seva Panthis and Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, and as such, ample poof has been given of their origins, ideology, practices and lineages (with more to come) on www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org. The question in my first post remains unanswered....could you at least point me to a written source to clarify my question? I am sure your websites must be based upon some kind of literary source and are not being created out of thin air. As such, please let me know the source of the Taksal history you are utilising.

any answers? :cry:

lalleshvari, it is hard to defend a fort that has started to crack because it has not been maintained well