Narsingha

Good stuff. You may want to check out: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sain_ravidas.html ..where we have revealed that there is a Bir of Adi Guru Durbar that contains the writings of Mirabai, a Rajput princess and a follower of Bhagat Ravidas who worshipped Vishnu. Not many people know that there is a Bir with the teachings of a female saint within its pages

Your thesis would carry more weight if it actually had some historical facts and scripture to back up your points.

Khalsa Soulja Can you please provide evidence from Treh Charittar to back up your claims? (Please quote the entire shabad if possible).

I assume you missed out the following page from the website: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/epilogue_sikh.html

Just as Seva Panthis, Nirmalas and Udhasis are pacifist in nature and non-confrontational, Nihangs are not. "taking the piss" and sarcasm is inherent within Akali Nihang spirit and although it goes against the modern Sikh ideal of being politically correct and "humble", it is nonetheless a tradition...something that has to be kept alive. Godbless

Who's getting defensive? The websites are there regardless of what attacks it may receive. If I was judging you, then I'd follow the way of mainstream Sikhs and call you names, have you declared a heretic or a traitor to Sikhism, and burn everything you owned each time you said anything against Sanatan Sikhs... ...yet this is not the case, so take a chill pill...

Underground... you may wish to check http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/guru_menu.html ...where is is clearly stated that Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji vested Guruship to Adi Guru Durbar

We assume (maybe incorrectly) that people actually read whats on the websites and posses some basic logic and reason, and dont have to be tutored like little children. Unlike the majority of Sikh-related websites that seem to be re-inventing the wheel, www.sarbloh.info has been designed to pormote thought and vanquish ignorance. The fact that all 3 sacred scriptures are refered to as GURU may be a subtle hint to the fact that their status is GURU. There is also a glossary in case people miss out on this... Also, we assume people will read the numerous quotes eluding to the fact that the 3 sacred scriptures are seen as Guru by Sanatan Sikhs, for example, those found on: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/durbar_menu.html ...some have even been highlighted in bold for clarity. The 3 sacred scriptures have been allocated separate sections for clarity and as these sections will be added to on a regular basis it only seems logical. Just because they have been placed in a separate section does not reduce their importance. In fact, it highlights their role within Sikhi. Also, pointing out the stupidity or ignorance of individuals does not mean you have judged them. It may be an idea for you to start learning to distinguish between "to judge" and "to state an opinion based on fact". Considering the petty comments against the website, and it seems people seem to be missing out over 99% of what has actually been presented there....some, even go to lengths as calling the site "anti-Sikh" simply because it does not conform to their own narrow-minded facist views of Sikhi. Nonetheless, this is expected considering the high level of ignorance amongst Sikhs today in general (...and this isnt "judging"..its an opinion based on the kind of comments we are seeing)

Sri Akal Ji Sahai, Namaste, Salaam and Greetings... An Introduction to Sanatan (traditional) Sikhism www.sarbloh.info has now been updated! New sections include... Nanak - That which is not many, but Ekh (One) Naam Jaap - Contemplation The 5 Spheres of Spiritual Elevation Amrit Vela - The Ambrosial Time Naam Simran Sanatan Sikhs and 'Hinduism' Afraid of the Truth? The Gurmukh - One who follows the path of Dharam (righteousness) Questions and Answers Akal Ustat - Questions Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji put to the student of Dharam Also included are over 400 fully interactive photographs, paintings, sketches, engravings and manuscripts. This website is the LARGEST of its kind that covers Sanatan Sikhism, the true form of Sikhism that existed prior to the arrival of the British Raj within India. From the website: ----- Why do ancient Sikh texts near unanimously say Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh decapitated goats and not Singhs at time of Khalsa initiation? ----- How come the European harmonium has replaced traditional Sikh classical musical instruments in Sikh temples? ----- If only Khalsa initiated Sikhs can be true Sikhs, as modern Tat Khalsa mentality Sikhs contend, then, how do we account for the innumerable Sahejdhari (non-Khalsa) Brahmgiani (spiritual accomplished) Udasi, Nirmala and Seva Panthi Sikhs such as Bhai Khanaiya, Baba Gurbax Das, Baba Seva Das, Bhai Addan Shah, Bhai Vasti Ram etc in Sikh history? ----- Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' (three adornments - kard, kachera and kesh) instead of the '5 Ks'* (* The 5 K - kesh (unshorn hair), kara (steel/iron war bracelet), kirpan/kard (dagger), kanga (wooden comb) and kachera (breeches))? ----- Why is the wording of 'Mool Mantra' (Sikh fundamental creed) given in the original source books of Sikh scripture, ‘Mohan Vali Pothi’a’ (compilation of the first and second Sanatan Sikh Gurus' works) is different than in present day accepted Sikh 'Mool Mantra'? ----- Coming soon: Gurmat Sangeet - Sikh devotional music in Raags (Indian Musical measures) The Nirmalas (intellectuals) - the philosophy Multimedia Gallery (audio and video) Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa uniform, and its significance For more information, please visit www.sarbloh.info or email info@sarbloh.info

Entertaining posting.... ..as yet Uptej Singh (the head of the Gatkhabaj amongst the AKJ) has still not answered the challange, and we still await to discover how the website (www.shastarvidiya.org) is apparently "insulting" the "sants" and "shaheeds" of the "sikh panth". Where is the ego in challanging someone to better the maryada for the good of the Khalsa? Were it left up to Uptej Singh and his crew, the martial arts of the Khalsa would dissolve into cutting bananas and melons under strobe lights and play-fighting with blindfolds. Ironic how this posting above speaks of dividing the Sikh faith yet the AKJ remain ALONE on their stance with regard to: a) being anti-Raagmala, compulsory keski for women, c) compulsory "naam drirh" (which incidentally arises from Radasoami influence) d) puritanical fanatic compulsory vegetarianism, e) what can only be described as "pakhand" Kirtan (devoid of Raags) f) brahminical use of Sarbloh (amongst the self-proclaimed "bebeki" AKJ) g) their endless renditions of Bhai Randhir Singh's texts which are equivalent to the Christian 10 commandments. They also reveal through their actions a complete LACK of knowledge with regard to: a) Gurmat Sangeet (knowledge of Raags and musical meters) Shastar Vidiya (knowledge of combat arts) c) Ayurveda (knowledge of medicine) d) Santhia (correct learning of Scriptures) e) Katha (expounding scriptures and historical texts) f) Ithihaas (historical study) ...yet profess to be the true "Khalsa". If anyone can prove this to be untrue, please, enlighten us (either here or on the pro-AKJ forums...assuming this forum is not pro-AKJ). As revealed on www.shastarvidiya.org, Bhai Randhir Singh for example claims that the word "Chatka" does not exist within any historical or scriptural texts (and claims to have read them). Yet, anyone who spends any time reading Dasam Guru Durbar (for example) will encounter the word "Chatka" countless number of times. This same individual claimed that Treh Charittar was not part of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji's gurbaani, yet, this same individual did not realise (or refused to accept) that the Chaupee Sahib which he himself read on a regular basis is the CONCLUSION to the Treh Charittar. Now, we ask ourselves, who is incorrect? Dasam Guru Durbar? or Bhai Randhir Singh? If Bhai Randhir Singh is wrong (AKJ hold yer breath), then, does it not follow that he may not be correct on other accounts? ...but to the AKJ, this would be unthinkable and is considered as "insulting" a "sant". Does one forsake the truth just to avoid denting the reputation of an indvidiual who is worshiped by the AKJ? Dasam Guru Durbar is just ONE text of many. Prachin Panth Prakash for example, is a complete textbook on Akali Nihang history and you cannot escape from Chatka and Sukka. Stay tuned to www.shastarvidiya.org as there is much more to come.

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai Information on the upcoming lectures on: Panjvah Takht Shromani Panth Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal, Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya ...and related topics click on the link below: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=541

I would ask you to quote the entire shabad rather than copy and paste quotes out of context from a search engine. Then we can dicuss the correct contexts and their relevance. With regards to Mahaprasaad (meat) and related quotes. If this is a burning issue with you (as the selection of latter quotes you have chosen implies), then please await our update on shastarvidiya.org coming in a fortnight.

Inderjit, thank you for such an enlightening post. As you state: "If you nihangs claim to hold the truth in terms of both snataan sikhi and shastarvidiya, then im guessing you would see yourselves as the dearest and nearest to the guru. since the rest of us have been brainwashed by the british and are now just mere shadows of the once great sikhs (apparently..you guys). " What has been presented on the websites is backed up with scriptures and historical texts (how many times does this have to be mentioned??) You state that we claim that we hold the truth with regards to Sanatan Sikhi and Shastar Vidiya, yet, you fail to realise that Maryada, ie, knowledge, is above any individual and is not the property of any one person. As Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji stated, "Rehit pyaari mujkoh, Sikh pyaari nahi". The great Guru stated this, despite being a Sikh himself. If a Sikh is not worthy of practicing any art, be it gurmat sangeet, santhia, or shastar vidiya, then, as Paindeh Khan (friend of Akali Guru Hargobind Sahib) proved, it will seek anyone, regardless of creed, caste, religion, etc. Why would we issue a challange to the Gatka practitioners and invite debate from people? The aim is to DISCOVER where the truth lies, and what it is. If mainstream Sikhism and Gatka is the truth as they claim, then, we ask these people to challange what has been said on the websites with clear objective evidence from historical texts and scriptures ot to accept Nihang Niddar Singh's Hadh Torh Challange. True knowledge will withstand any onslaught by anyone. If you or others consider Sanatan Sikh ideology or Shastar Vidiya as weak or untrutful, or anti-Sikh, etc etc., then, step up and back-up what you say with clear objective evidence, or indeed accept the Hadh Torh challange. Why would modern Sikhs fear the RSS, for example if they claim their Sikhi to be the Truth? Akali Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Mool Mantra states that the eternal truth has existed, does exist, and will continue to exist. So, if mainstream Sikhi is the truth, then, why do they fear groups such as RSS and the "Hindu" world to such a greta degree? Insecurity? As yet, all we see is emotional outbursts, insults, baseless personal opinions and individuals beating their chests about where the Nihang Singhs were during 1984. You can continue bringing up 1984, but as stated earlier, this will be addressed on www.nihang.com. Sarbloh.info deals with Shaant Ras (essence of peace), and Shastarvidiya.org deals with Bir Ras (warrior essence). The politics, which in themselves are a large topic of debate will be dealt with on www.nihang.com. If you cannot even refute what has been stated on shastarvidiya.org or sarbloh.info with any substantial evidence, why open another can of worms? At least stick to the topic at hand. Finally, there is no use asking me personal questions, or directing the debate to me as an individual as this has no bearing on the discussions. Your attempt at making this debate into some emotional rollercoaster will not divert anyone who seeks the Truth from the fact that you, and others like you, have not been able to refute what has been said on the websites with any evidence. I could be a hindu, or muslim, buddhist, or an Eskimo...would that change the fact that you have still not been able to back up anything you state with any evidence? It is truly a sad state of affairs when so-called Sikhs cannot stick to being objective and logical and using Gurbani and History as a guide, but prefer to persue the avenue of Manmat in order to appease their ego. Any student (unviersity/college/school) is taught that what they say should always be backed up with evidence (literary or practical), logic, science, or experience, otherwise their comment is dubious. If they do not find what they seek, then they carry out a study to prove something is true on untrue. Why should debating Sikhi be any different? Indeed, the Gurus and the great sikh (and other) historians have provided us with an addition of Gurbani and History which makes it even easier...so please use it.

There will be sections on Shastarvidiya.org addressing the kakaars But, to note, the kakaars are there for practical reasons, not just "symbols". Simply wearing kakaars does not mean anything when they do not serve a practical purpose.... ..do you not agree?

There are many ways to Control Kaam other than wearing a kachera. The Nirmalas, Udhasis, Seva panthis do not wear kacheras, so does this mean that their kaam is running wild? Logically speaking, the arguement that the kachera controls kaam holds no ground. Kacheras have been known to be of colours other than white...

"Pirtham bhagautee simer keh, Gur Naanak laaie sahai, Fir Angad Gur, tey Amardaas, Raamdaas hoee sahai, Arjan, Hargobind noo, simrao, sree Har Rai, Sree HarKrishaan dhiaaeeai jis dithday sabh dukh jai, Tegh Bahadur simereeai, ghaar nauh nidh aavai dhaai, Sabh thaaee hoi sahai." (Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji, Durga ki Vaar, Dasam Guru Durbar) These 9 treasures... 1) Padam, (gold/silver) 2) Mahapadam (jewels) 3) Shank (delicious foods) 4) Makar (being recognised by the state, eg, a knighthood) 5) Ruchap (trade in silks and fine fabrics) 6) Mokhand (fine arts and antiquities) 7) Rund (old ornaments, and cutlery) 8) Neel (Pearls) 9) Vuch (immence Wealth through financial genuis)

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai It seems you wish to continue going around in circles discrediting the website, and then not providing any evidence to counteract what has been said on the website. Blaming GOI propaganda for anything that does not appeal to your particular blend of Sikhi does not do you any credit. If you consider the websites as GOI propaganda, please provide evidence. Apologies but I am sure there are better ways you can entertain yourself. Once again, if you consider what has been said on the websites as incorrect or anti-Sikh, then, please do everyone the courtesy of providing a dicussion that is backed up with scripture and/or historical references. With regard to powers that are against the Sikh Nation, one may ask, WHICH Sikh nation are you referring to? Considering that since the arrival of the British, so many personality cults and self-proclaimed saints and factions have arisen, which do you consider to be true to the Guru's words? Every group seems to vary in what they believe (ie, rehits) and none can agree as to what is true. In the case of the AKJ, they claim to agree with the Akaal Takht (hence the Akal takht insignia on their websites) yet they do not agree with meat, Raagmala or keski. With such confusion amongst modern mainstream Sikhi, is it any wonder that the youth are also in disarray and argue over aspects such as meat, hair, where to take amrit, whether to take amrit, etc etc. To fight for a side, you must know what side you are on. Akaal hee Akaal (NB: Pls note the word EVIDENCE....something your arguements against the websites seem to lack)

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai The fact that the BKI and AKJ have "severed" links with the individual(s) responsible in order to save their own skin leaves much to be questioned. The fact that the individual responsible was already in jail for a a number of years also seems to escape the attention of people. That is simply ONE act amongst many mindless ones that differentiates a terrorist from a warrior. (In case you wish to bring up 1984, this too will be answered on www.nihang.com) Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but, the fact remains, that as yet we have not had any evidence presented that what has been mentioned on the website is not true. (It seems this point repeatedly seems to be escaping everyone who is trying to attack the website and instead wish to take the discussion to a more subjective and emotional one). If you do not agree with the website, please exercise your freedom and dont visit it. If you wish to debunk or discredit it, at least ensure what you do is backed up with evidence from historical/scriptural sources.

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai I think you missed the point. W e are not questioning whether Bhai Fauja Singh gave "Shaheedi" or not, that is for Akaal Purakh to know. Who is a Shaheed and who isnt is for Akaal Purakh to decide, as only the ALmighty knows what a person's actions are truly like. What we question is his stance on Gatka, and his use of it to lure people into his movement. These is the fact as proven by his actions. Secondly, the actions of the Babbar Khalsa International are evidently those of terrorists. It is simply political correctness amongst Sikhs that prevents them from speaking the truth and being direct about it. If blowing up a plane full of innocent people (including Sikhs) is the sign of warriors, then what is the difference between a warrior and a terrorist? For more information, please visit Amnesty International, a well recognised human-rights organisation and even the United Nations. Amnesty and the UN are one amongst many that have BKI on their list of terrorist groups. Should you wish to dispute this, take it up with the them. I await to hear of your campaign against these groups in the near future. Once again, it seems you provide NO EVIDENCE to counteract the claims on the website but push personal views across hoping people will sympathise with you. In addition it seems that you have misunderstood (maybe on purpose) the information given on the website and wish to simply fight a case based on subjective views. Good luck in convincing people that what you say has any substance, I'm sure there will be some who will agree with your views. We do not seek to emotionally blackmail people into thinking we are correct, we provide historical facts and quotes from scriptures and leave the decision to be made by the individuals themselves as to what is right or wrong. To those who seek MORE than just opinion, then they will be harder to persuade by people such as yourself who simply base their discussions on personal views and emotional outbursts such as those you have mentioned. I still await your response to my previous post asking for proof regarding the AKJ, Bhai randhir Singh, BKI and Bhai Fauja Singh. To end, please do not expect a response unless you wish to provide concrete evidence to back up your claims (and it would help if you actually read the website rather than come to your conclusions based on your own skewed perspective). Do not consider this ego, but a search for the Truth....if you can prove (with evidence from historical references and scriptures) that we are incorrect, then there can be dialogue.

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai GurFateh Singh Khalsa, thank you for those quotes from the website (and highlighting them for clarity). Firstly, a humble request.... Can you provide EVIDENCE (historical or scriptural) with regards to what has been said about: a) Bhai Fauja Singh Bhai Randhir Singh and his followers c) AKJ d) Babbar Khalsa ..is INCORRECT as you claim? Pointing out historical TRUTHS and FACTS about any one person or individual is not "Nindiya" as you claim. Nindiya is baseless rumour and insults based on ego. However, what has been mentioned on the websites is the Truth. If you do not wish to accept these truths, then that is your wish, but it does you or anyone little credit to simply ignore them or end up insulting those who do not conform to your views. Are you caught up in such a high degree of hero-worship that truth does not seem to register? With regards to Shivji. You say that Shiva is "insignificant" with regards to Sikhism, yet why does Guru Maharaj refer to Shivji (and the trinity) as followers of Akaal Purakh within Adi Guru Durbar and Dasam Guru Durbar and Sarbloh Guru Durbar? I assume therefore that references to names such as "Mahakaal", "Mahesh", "Rudra" that arise in Gurbaani, and in most cases refer directly to Shivji would also seem "insignificant" to you. Needless to say you reveal your own ignorance with regards to Gurbaani. Is there anything wrong with regarding Shivji, or anyone else as a source of inspiration if they are worthy of respect because of their warrior prowess? For example, why would Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji write 4 ballads devoted to Chandi (Durga) within hiw works if Chandi? Will you also regard Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji as a admin cut for writing Chandi Charitra? Or writing Krishan Avtaar to reveal the warrior prowess of Krishan Maharaj? Indeed, the great warrior Guru also wrote many other works that inspire his Khalsa that have their basis in folklore and other tales...even Soni Mehiwal. If you do not acknowledge Krishan Maharaj (for example) as worthy of respect, then why do you read Gurbaani that arises from Krishan Avtar within Dasam Guru Durbar as part of Rehras Sahib? Why do you read Ardas which arises from Chandi Di Vaar (a ballad revealing the warrior prowess of Chandi). Indeed, Japji Sahib itself mentions Raam....another diety. Do you then consider Akali Guru Nanak Devji as a admin cut too? I can point out the verses if you wish, but I assume that you are already aware which ones I am referring to. We state on the website that we RESPECT these dieties, but do not worship them. Incidentally, could you point out where the word "HINDU" is mentioned within the following texts: Gita Ramayan Mahabharat 4 Vedas 18 Puraans Shastars Upanishaads ...if you find the word "HINDU" in them, please let me know. Once again, please provide evidence for your claims. Subjective opinions based upon your personal feelings do not carry much weight, no matter how passionate they may be. Akaal hee Akaal www.sarbloh.info www.shastarvidiya.org

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai We would like to know how many people would like to learn: a) Savyah Rakhsha (self defence techniques ONLY) Shashtar Vidiya (full combat art, with the Akali Nihang maryada) ...if we started an Akhara (training centre) in your area? The reason for this survey is to get an idea of the demand for the art, and where this demand exists. The Akhara would run weekly, either on a weekend, or during the evening. Please be aware that before proceeding to learn Shastar Vidiya, a person is required to spend a minimum of 2 years learning Savyah Rakhsha. The artform is open to ALL good citizens of sound mind (regardless of GENDER, CASTE, CREED, COLOUR, FAITH, APPEARANCE, SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS, SEXUAL INCLINATIONS, etc etc). It would be helpful if you could provide the follow information (optional) a) where you live, ie, town/country how far you would be willing to travel to learn this art? c) why you wish to learn? d) do you wish to someday teach this art? e) what day(s)/time(s) would be best for you to attend? f) would you bring your family/bf/gf/husband/wife/kids with you? Thank you

Change (from an interpretation of the Vedas) When I was a young man, I wanted to change the world. I found it was difficult to change the world, so I tried to change my nation. When I found I couldn't change the nation, I began to focus on my town. I couldn't change the town and as an older man, I tried to change my family. Now, as an old man, I realize the only thing I can change is myself, and suddenly I realize that if long ago I had changed myself, I could have made an impact on my family. My family and I could have made an impact on our town. Their impact could have changed the nation and I could indeed have changed the world. (Veda)

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai There is no use insulting someone then claiming that no offence is intended. Everyone has an ego, to be without one is not to be human. However, when ego clouds objectivity then it becomes an issue. Whether a person wishes to deal with this depends on their karams. We do not claim to be all-knowing or supreme, that is is why we desire that people come forward with what they disagree with so that all may benefit. However, on a discussion forum it is evident that some individuals prefer to get personal that is why they cannot be suitable platforms for debate regarding these topics. If you still consider this to be egotistical, so be it. Life goes on. Do not blame your own insecurity and ignorance on us....seek to rectify it not to whine about it. If you do not like what has been said on the website, then we suggest you exercise your freedom and avoid these websites. Unlike mainstream Sikhism, we do not seek to convert anyone, nor impose our views upon them, nor do we seek anyone's approval, as this Sikhi is Sanatan...ie, eternal and will exist regardless.

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai Once again, we ask people such as "Bikramjit Singh", etc, to provide objective evidence from historical texts and/or scripture to refute what has been presented on www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org. We request that such people leave personal attacks outside of objectivity, along with their inflated egos. Unless of course this is the only way they can gain credibility/ego boosts for their opinions on a discussion forum. Sadly Bikramjit Singh seems very sore that his desire for attention was ignored on another Discussion Forum and seeks to appease himself. To find out why Bikramjit Singh was ignored, please refer to the quote at the end of this post. If you wish to refute what has been presented on the websites, please email info@sarbloh.info or info@shastarvidiya.org along with your evidence. Akaal hee Akaal

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai If you wish to persue a personal arguement and/or desire an ego boost, then you are in for a big disappointment. The website is run by myself on behalf of the Gurdevs of the Institute of Sikh Martial Heritage, and the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Budha Dal. As such, please be aware that your questions regarding the website will be directed to ALL who are involved, including the Sanatan Sikh World. These forums have been utilised to ADVERTISE the art of Shastar Vidiya, not discuss it. The individual called Sukhbir emailed us, and received a comprehensive reply yet he failed to post that. Should you or anyone else wish to ask any questions, then please email info@shastarvidiya.org as they will not be answered on discussion forums. This is the wish of the current Shastar Vidiya Gurdev Nihang Niddar Singh. If you feel this is unfair or not up to expectations, being cowardly, etc etc. , then you are more than welcome to meet us face-to-face at one of the Shastar Vidiya or Savya Rakhshah Akharas running in Wolves, Coventry, B'ham or London (coming soon) and present your case. Akaal hee Akaal.