Niranjana

Gur Fateh! Bhai Sahib H Singh Ji, my reference to "Sabat Soorat Dastar Sira" was made as this is often, in my opinion, mistakenly used as an instruction for keeping one’s kesh and wearing a Turban, and more recently has been used by some to justify Keski as a part of the 5K’s. [For the record, I fully support the requirement for Kesh as a Khalsa Singh and accordingly wish to make clear that the intention of pointing out this anomaly is simply to clarify the meaning of the shabd within its context]. Gurbani makes repeated use of symbolic references for our relationship with Akal Purakh as that of a Turkish Sultan or or a Mughal Patshah. For instance, in the sahbd “Tu Sultan Kaha Hau Meean Teri Kawan Vadaee...†(Bilawal M1, Sri Guru Granth Sahib). This symbolism expands such that the ultimate desitination of one’s soul is described as the court of the divine Sultan/Patshah, that is the Darbar of Akal Purkh. As is the custom and protocol for the Sultan’s Darbar, no unauthorised persons may appear in the court without the appropriate attire. For instance, criminals and others to be punished have their head-dress removed (more specifically in the case of a turban, it would be made to hang around their neck). In contrast to this, those permitted to enter with the befitting head-dress and attire, do so on account of acceptance and honour by the Sultan. The Sri Guru symbolises these aspects in sahbds such as “Vich dunia sev kamaeeay ta dargah vaisan paeeay†[Those who serve others in this world attain a seat in the Darbar (of Akal Purakh)]. This is also evident in the Jap Ji Sahib (“Panch Parvan Panch Pardhan Panchay Pave Dargey Manâ€) as a reference to the ‘Panch’ or ‘Pardhan’ of the village elders and/or members of the village councils symbolising that who remember Akal Purakh are accepted in the court like the Panch are in the Darbar of the Sultan. There are many more such examples that can be found within the Jap Ji Sahib alone as well as in the Sri Guru. This, I feel to be the context in which the Sabad “Sabat Soorat Dastar Sira†is set, that following the correct conduct as set forth in the Sabad, one enters Akal Purakh’s Darbar in full attire, namely, an unshaven face -Sabat Soorat- [since criminals are presented before the Emperor with a shaven head and face] and a turban upon their head –Dastar Sira. Hence, the shabd is not directly related to the instruction to keep Kesh or wear a Dastar. Apologies if this has caused any hurt sentiments, I welcome feedback on the foregoing and please do correct any foolish mistakes on my part. Sat Sri Akal!

Gur Fateh! As no one has touched on the Chandi/Kali aspects of Sarabloh, I’ll offer my two pennies worth and apologise in advance should this upset anyone’s sentiments –these notions do not coincide directly with my personal views, I present them here as information that I have come across... I welcome all feedback and stress from the outset that these are simply notions that I have come across, supported by some scholars and texts (both positively and negatively) and in no way are presented here to cause offence. GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The tradition of respecting Sarbaloh does appear to be a legacy from Shakat/Tantric aspects that can be found increasingly since the 18th Century amongst the Sikhs, particularly the Nihang Dals. The devi/goddess/feminine attributes of God (depending upon your personal stance) have been worshiped by various names (Durga, Kali, Chandi, Bhavani, Bhagautee etc) one of which is Sarabloh, referring to a Kharag, Khanda or any weapon without a wooden handle or non-iron components i.e. "all iron". (Take a look at the pictures shasters using the links on this forum, under the pictures section, and one can see an assortment of such weapons in common use by the Nihang Singhs). Iron ore, Iron metal and weapons made from Iron in the Indian sub-continent have been and are worshipped as manifestations of Chandi/Bhagautee, this trend is in particular popularity with the Rajputs. This legacy has continued for Sikhs, albeit under different reasoning, as manifestations of Akal Purakh’s power through the use of terminology in the Dasam Granth (Sarabloh, MahaLoh, the Shaster Naam Mala etc) and in more common occurrence with the weapons adorning Dhumalas, Dastaars and Maharaj’s Darbar, aside from their other uses). Iron and iron weapons are termed ‘Asi’ with Bhagautee/Kali described as the appellation of the Kharag weilder (Asipan, Kharagkhet). Sarbaloh is hence considered as another name for Kali in classical Shakat scriptures. Prior to the Singh Sabha reforms, the majority of Sikhs in 18th century, particularly the Nihang dals, as per Bhai Daya Singh's Rehatnama, Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangoo’s Panth Parkash and Santokh Singh’s Suraj Parkash, strongly believed in the invocation of Bhagautee by Guru Gobind Singh during the Naina Devi incident and as such, iron weapons being manifestations of bhagautee, were worthy of worship as Shastar Guru. This is symbolically explained through the use of Chandi, where Chandi (the weapon) rides the Singh (Lion) and accordingly, it is the Weapon and hence Sarabloh, is the wielder of the Singh and not the other way around as well as the invocation of Bhagautee during the Ardas, Chandi Di Var (and other Chandi compositions in the Dasam Granth), Sarabloh Avtar etc etc. Similarly many exclusive aspects of Nihang practice can be seen to have Shakat/Tantric roots and undertones of which some have continued to prevail in subsequent panthic movements who have proximity to ‘Nihangta’, albeit these movements are not necessarily Nihang by lineage or indeed aware of the origins of the Sarablohi bibek in terms of the wider elements of Chandi Puja.

any thoughts??? ...where's all the "Souljas" gone???

Sardar Bahadur Khalsa Soulja Sahib! GUR FATEH!!! Bhai Sahib, I'm not a real rap fan, my suggestions are based upon the language and terminology used in your posts which I find qualify you well above anyone else (sorry MC Malkeet Underground Sikhi!) to be the one 'penetrates' the Rap Music Market for the Sikhs...I'm not a fan of 'kacchi' bani either, however there's nothing stopping you from rapping your stuff within a Dhadi format...you have all the 'lingo' and 'gangsta-ness!" necessary! lol! I hope you have a great evening! Thanks for sharing your thougths, I'm happy to 'agree to disagree' on points (many in fact with you! lol) and appreciate your doing the same! Look forward to reading more from you on 'hardcore' Sikhi life in 'ghetto' and underground 'scene' with all the 'Sarabloh Gangstas' diong their 'thang'!!! LOL ...in the meantime, what are you doing up at this hour??? :evil: Surely as a 17 year old, this is way past your bedtime! :oops2: Mr Singh, have a good one... Vahe Guru Raakhaa! GUR BAR AAAAAKKKKKKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!

Gur Fateh, Sardar Bahadur Khalsa Sahib...please could I ask that you refrain from using the titles 'sant' and 'akali' in association with my name, these are not words to be played with lightly and I am far from being worthy of such titles...and NEVER refer to me as a Gangster...if you like to think of yourself as being someone out of the 'ghetto' so be it, I certainly am not and am far from being any sort of Gangster, Rude Boy, Homie, Dude or whatever the 'in' or 'cool' phrase maybe at present -no doubt popularised by some HipHop R n'B artist...I am at best a simple Singh Sahib...however, Niranjana will do fine! As per Bhai Chaupa Singh, your comments are noted and I must admit when I first encountered these (back in my late teens) I too had the same reaction, as you would say, too much "dodgy stuff" in these rehitnamas! You hit the nail on the head when you say "we shouldnt discount EVERYTHING he says - but we should be very careful reading his version of the rehat"...this needs to be considered, of course in relation to other rehitnamas, but also the historical occurences,situations and scenarios at the time of writing to understand why these requirements were in place...including the "dodgy" comments relating to brahmins and women...there are reasons for these being present... [note: I am not saying I support these notions in anyway] ...my personal take on the matter of rehitnamas is that they are complete documents in their own right, so cross-referencing them and combining them into one as a means of establishing some sort of ultimate rehit maryada (as is the case presently) does appear to be a little misleading [note: cross-referencing for study is a different thing] in that these articles reflect amongst other things, a snapshot of what was occuring during that time and the requirements needed... ...I personally cannot account for everything in these rehits, and admittedly I find some of the comments unsettling given present day attitudes and conditioning, however I increasingly find the line of thought that these are false rehitnamas that have been 'contaminated' by brahmins and other forces a tad too simplistic an approach to understanding these matters...with time, I'm sure these will become clearer... I note your comments on jewellery, and have no issue with your relation to Shabd Guru, if that is how it is revealed to you...just please accept that not everyone's relationship with Maharaj is the same as yours or mine, hence the same shabds (and others) will reveal themselves in a different way to way they do to you or me...so I ask that you please reconsider making statements such as:- "...cover their face with makeup or wear copious amounts of jewellry, frankly, like a rundhee?" (source: Khalsa Soulja) If you honestly feel that any women wearing jewellery qualifies as a 'rundhee' then, my dear 'soulja' I'm terribly sorry for you...but as I say, I respect your right to have your opinions and views...but remember that they are just that, 'your' views, no matter how many people or papers agree with you, they still remain your views... I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter and wish you a pleasent evening. Again, I highly recommend that you consider a rapping stint with the "Undergroud boyz" given your passion for all things 'ghetto' and 'gangsta' Lol! GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLL!

now now!!! behave boys!!! ---------------------------- Gur Fateh! Sardar Sahib Khalsa Soulja Ji, I note your reference, however from my recollection, the portrait showed the Nihangnee without make-up (note: I personally have no problem for ladies with or without it) however she did appear to be heavily adorned with jewellery, but given its a black-and-white portrait, I can't comment if its 'sarabloh' and 'attracting all sorts of wonderful energy and special magnetic fields' as some allude or if it is of any other metal...what I will say however is that the artifacts are jewellery and not all weapons from the looks of things -but I could be wrong... ...that said, I personally see no issue in wearing jewellery...sure the rehitnama says so, but is this the rehitnama you follow? Or are you simply picking bits and pieces that suit your stance (which for you is fine, not necessarily for everyone else though)... For me this ongoing "which rehit nama issue" is 'simply' addressed as follows...is the Chaupa Singh (or any other) rehitnama a timeless text like the Sri Guru (not that Maharaj is simply a text) or is it a practical application of basic practical elements, minimum criteria if you will, for the Khalsa Panth at the prevailing time and conditions? Consider too the following items from the same rehit nama...(taken from Chaupa Singh Rahitnama, original manuscript, Sikh Reference Library, Sambat 1821, (1765 CE), item number, 506. “Sword baptism is not to be administered to women†(and again from same rehit nama but taken from Rahitname by Piara Singh Padam): Darbar sikhan de lagge vich maaee da jama, pothi Granth Sahib na parhe, sune sahi In a congregation of Sikhs, the female gender, should not read the scripture Granth Sahib, she may listen alright. (page 106) Gur ki sikhni maili hoike na parsad pakai na khawai Guru's female sikh, if mensurating should neither cook food nor serve food. (page 107) Personally, the Sri Guru is the ultimate rehitnama, the ultimate and timeless guide... forgive any foolishness on my part... GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLL!

please consider the following:- http://www.sikhe.com/gsdno/articles/keerta...lowandpause.htm Flow and Pause in Gurbani and Keertan Amardeep Singh Tue Dec 11 It is important to understand a few terminologies before we proceed further. rahau - While reading through a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib, we find that one line has the word 'rahau' written at the end. Except for raag Majh, we find the mention of rahau in nearly all the other Bani. Depending on it's type, for example, Chaupada (of 4 lines), Ashtpadi (of 8 lines), etc., a shabad has that many defined lines. Somewhere in the middle or in the beginning of the shabad one line has the word rahau mentioned with the numeral 1. Rahau means 'wait' or 'pause' in Punjabi - "Therau". The Gurus have clearly indicated that, while reading a shabad, pause on this line. Why the pause? Because the line with rahau is the central theme of the shabad. This is the line in which Guru is conveying the topic discussed in the shabad and it contains the Gurmat Vichar, the 'right thought'. Therefore, we are required to pause on this line and contemplate the message. The other lines in the shabad are used to explain/extrapolate the contents of the central theme given in the line of rahau. These other lines (the non-rahau lines) talk about prevalent practices, arguments, reasoning, intention, etc. and are used for strengthening and explaining the Central Theme. The point to note is that the numbering of lines is meanigful: the numbering conveys a definitive message. The message here is: Wait/Pause and contemplate on the message. In this line the Guru is telling us the theme of the shabad. The number 1 of rahau indicates, read this line carefully. Now read the other (non-rahau) line, and correlate it to the message in rahau. Now proceed to the other (Non-rahau) line thereby keep proceeding with all the other lines in a sequential manner. At times, if rarely, we find more than one rahau in a shabad. All the rahaus in that shabad (usually 2,3 or 4) convey the same central theme: reflect on truth. Gurus thought it appropriate to explain the same central theme in different combination of words and therefore gave more than one rahau. asthai - In Keertan, or any music, we find one line keeps getting repeated time and again. This common line, which is repeated each time after a different line, is known as asthai in Indian classical music, or Chorus in the western music. antra - In Keertan, or any music, after singing the asthai, the repetitive line, a different line is sung and upon its completion the asthai is sung again and then a second different line is sung, followed by asthai. This changing line is known as antra in Indian classical music. The purpose of Keertan is to deliver the Gurus' message sweetly to the listener. As rahau has the central theme of the shabad and contains the spiritual message, its usage, as an asthai is repeated time and again after every antra, which helps in the message getting drilled into the listener's mind. The result is that the Guru's message gets delivered many times while the shabad is being sung. This increases the probability of retention of the central theme, Gurmat Vichar, by the listener's mind. Let us take a very popular shabad from Siri Raag, Page 44, which is sung by raagis during a happy occasion in the family. Most of the Sikhs will remember the shabad by its popularly known line: "Lakh khushiyaan patshahiyaan jey satgur nadar karey .........." It's commonly found that raagis make the above line as the asthai while singing the shabad because of the word khushiyaan (happiness). This line is the second non-rahau line in the shabad and gets commonly used as the asthai while singing. The English interpretation of the shabad is: SRI RAAG, MEHLA V: All happiness is achieved only by Thy Grace. The precious gift of this human life becomes fruitful when one chants the True Word. One who has such destiny written on his forehead enters the Mansion of the Lord's Presence through the Guru. || 1 || O my mind, focus your consciousness on the One. Without the One, all involvlements are worthless; emotional attachment to a mirage is verily false. || 1 || Pause || Hundreds of thousands of princely pleasures are yours to enjoy if the True Guru bestows a Glance of Grace. If God bestows the Name of the Lord, even for a moment, my mind and body are soothed. Those who have such pre-ordained destiny hold tight to the Feet of the True Guru. || 2 || Blessed is that moment, and fruitful is that time, when one is in love with the True Lord. Suffering and sorrow do not touch those who have the Support of the Name of the Lord. Grasping the seeker by the arm, the Guru lifts them up and out, and carries them across to the other side. || 3 || Embellished and immaculate is that place where the Saints gather together. That person alone finds shelter who has met the Perfect Guru. Nanak builds his house upon that site where there is no death, no birth, and no old age. || 4 || 6 || 76 || If we were to sing this shabad in proper Keertan singing style by making rahau (Mere man eikas sio chit laaye/eikas bin sabh dhund hai/sabh mithiya moh maye) as asthai for repetition, then, upon reaching second antra, the message that will get repetitively delivered to the mind will be that we need to first make an effort to get our mind to focus on One God, give up attachment to maya and emotional entanglements. If we succeed in achieving this state of mind, then, as stated in the second non-rahau line, thousands of pleasures will be attained only if God's Grace falls upon us. Note that the condition (rahau line to be used as asthai) is that we make the effort to rid our mind of attachment/maya, then the result (non-rahau line to be used as antra) is - if Satguru deems it worth then Satguru provides hundreds of pleasures to the devotee. Unfortunately, this shabad is commonly sung by raagis by making the non-rahau Line No.2 as the asthai (Lakh khushiyan patshahiyan jey satgur nadar karey....), which gets repeated many a time during the shabad singing. Now see the change in deliverability of the message to our mind. We are seeking from our Guru thousands of pleasures by God's Grace and, upon getting them, we will then strive towards ridding our mind of attachment/maya! Note that by using the non-rahau line as asthai, the condition has changed to: if Satguru deems it worth, then Satguru provides hundreds of pleasures to us and the result (rahau line being used as antra) is that we will make the effort to rid our mind of attachment/maya! By using the non-rahau line in this shabad as asthai, our mind is subconsciously being told to live on HOPE, rather than make the EFFORT, which is the reverse of what the Guru is telling us in this shabad, viz.- Devotee first makes the EFFORT and then HOPE should arise for God's Grace. Interesting, isn't it? We tend to ignore the finer details of Gurus' message, which is so clear. Probably that's the reason why Sikhs of today lack the spirit/spiritual discipline for which our forefathers were known. I hope people will start making the effort of getting the Sikhs in their immediate contact to understand the importance of rahau in Keertan singing and strive towards singing Keertan in the correct manner. Those who are active in Gurudwara Management/teaching Keertan should make it a point to teach the youth only those shabads in which rahau is made the asthai. For a teacher to correct what he has already learnt in so many years is a tough proposition, but he can definitely make an effort to select those shabads from his Keertan bank for teaching the youth/children, in which the rahau is made the asthai. In this way, we may be able to slowly steer in the direction of true deliverance.

Sardar Bikramjit Singh Ji, I for a long time was in a similar state of mind for a while at a time when I was getting close to AKJ sangats through friends, however having assessed the matter further, whilst many argue that the counter arguements provided by the Pro-Raagmala groups may be lacking in some form, for me it boiled down to a decision that the recitation of Raagmala is a must, if it turns out to not to be Gurbani, then fair enough, I'll repent upon my ignorance of faith, however in denying it and aggresively opposing its recitation, should it turn out to be Gurbani then I've sufferred at the hands of my ego and effectively 'silenced' or pulled out the tongue of the Sri Guru... What I would be interested to know is if someone can provide me the works of the poet Alam (links etc), who is supposedly meant to written the composition as the Anti-Raagmala proponents claim. GUR FATEH! http://www.akj.org.uk/faq/#9 Raagmala is a small composition which appears on the final page of most Saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Along with other organisations and scholars, we believe that Raagmala is not Gurbani, but was added to Guru Granth Sahib at a later date. The Raagmala was not part of the original Bir compiled by Sahib Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, neither was it part of the Damdami Bir. It was composed by a poet named Alam, a contemporary of Emperor Akbar - in the year 991 Hijri or Bikrami 1641 - about 20 years before the compilation of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. http://www.akj.org.uk/literature/article.a...gurmat&f=srm04d "A Muhammadan poet called Alam in AH 991 (AD. 1583) wrote a work in 353 stanzas, generally from four to six lines each, called Madhava Nal Kandala. The Raga Mala, which forms the conclusion of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and contains a list of the raags and raaginis and their subdivisions, is a portion of Alam's work extending from 63rd to 72nd stanza. It is not understood how it was included in the Sacred volume. The Raags mentioned in it do not correspond with the Raags of the Granth Sahib."

Snigga Sahib...not wishing to sound alarmed, but is this post directed to anyone on this thread or just an opinion you wished to express? Gur FateH!

Gur Fateh! Nihangnees may or may not wear a dastaar from what I have personally seen and come across. During battle times, yes, we can see the Dastaar being worn (in as much a disguise as it is for other reasons), however at the same time, portraits of a Nihang with his nihangnee often show the latter to dressed with jewellery head to toe and with a churri-pajama or long Gagra, blouse or flowing top with a dupatta over her head (in one example, I have seen the dupatta held in place with an assortment of jewellery and/or Sarabloh items). I guess they're just practical as per the situation they find themselves in, that's all. Sat Sri Akal!

Well now that it has, let's hear some more on the Sarabloh Avtar...and on Asipan and Asidhuj... Sri Laxmani Jee Sahai!!! Having pleased Bhagvati and Bhagvant, the True Guru destroyed the evil-doers, Those demons, revilers of the Lord and his sants, who were creating obstacles on the path of Hari. He destroyed in dharmayuddha the demons who reviled Brahmans and cows. Purifying varna and ashrama, he churned the essence and gave it as a mantra to the Khalsa. According to the command of Akal Purakh the form of the best of munis was manifested: Keeping long hair from head to toe, the best of men took on the form both of bhagats and of heroes. They received from the beginning the gift of chakravarti status, their righteous rule (dharamarÃja) devouring the highest of mountains. They received unshakeable sovereignty [of the earth] up to the ocean, from the rising of the sun to the point where it sets, and of heaven. The pure Khalsa Panth arose by the Lord's command: Duality was effaced by these means and the unclean demons (asura malechhana) were destroyed. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, pp. 495-96.

Gur Fateh! Thanks for this, in my post (the blue coloured one!) I expressed a similar notion that iron being a metal which is cheap and easily available to all, counters the likes of gold, which predominantly feature in most brahmanical traditions. By this, I mean, two things, firstly iron symbolises strength (for obvious reasons) and secondly humility in that it is available to all regardless of their social standing –this, I personally believe to be ‘one’ of the many reasons for the use of terms such as Sarab Loh and Maha Loh in Dasam Bani as metaphors for Akaal. On the point of strength, similarly I find that the inclusion of the sarabloh kirpan and sarabloh kara in the 5Ks to be a direct parallel to the requirement under brahmanic traditions to wear 5 items of gold (sorry, I don’t have references to hand for this) –in the latter case, all one does is worry about being mugged or attacked, hence weakening their state of mind, with the 5 K’s in particular the Sarab Loh elements, one feels empowered to defend themselves and others... To touch on the bibeki element briefly, one thing I’ve always found interesting are the Scythian People. In ancient Europe they are believed to have worshiped the sword as a manifestation of power. Archaeologists have found graves believed to belong such people where the deceased have been buried with a sword and a small metal cauldron...this may be premature on my part, but the first thing that comes to mind is the notion of Sarabloh Shaster and Sarabloh Bata (Degh, Tegh...) Narsingha, if you were referring to me in the iron count, no worries, but I’m a lacto-vegetarian and have no issues with my iron levels (plenty of saag, methi, nuts and seeds does the trick and also provides loads of zinc to keep things running smooth!)...however as you do bring up the matter of meat...any thoughts on the chandika/kalika aspects associated with the metal iron? Ashiduj, Asipan... GUR BAR AKAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! On the point about Darbar, this is an important aspect, Sardar Kapur Singh mentions it extensively in his 'parasaraprashna' with the decorum required... ...as per the dressing up, sure a nice Kurta-Pajama/Shawl would be nice for guys, but I don't have an issue with Black dastaars or even folks coming in wearing 3 piece suits -most oldies from East Africa and those from the Military days are the best, these Sardar Jis, really do make the effort, nice turbans, groomed beards (whether open or tied) , suited and booted...really look like they are entering a court -shame that the generations that have followed have lost it... ...what we have is either wearing scruffy work clothes or in the case of the youth, it's amazing, the uniform is effectively the blue/black dhumala, tight t-shirt, track-suit bottoms, massive karas accompanied by a group of similar looking young men telling each other how "gangsta" they look!!! I really don't understand the need to act like downtown ghetto-based black men? What's with this macho rude-boy image problem??? And moreover, why do you want to look like a "gangsta" in Maharaj's Darbar anyway??? Forgive any harsh comments... GUR BAR AKAAAAAALLL!

Gur Fateh! I posted this query on another website and provide below the most comprehensive response I attained (note: these are not my views, but that of another forum member). I post this here to see if there are any views differing on the matter either from the questions I have asked and also with regard to the response I received. Look forward to hearing from you... GUR BAR AKKKKAAAAALLLLLL! *My post* There is much talk about Sarabloh, be it Bibek, Granth or what have you. I'm starting this thread to 'share' our 'thoughts' on the matter of the significance of Sarabloh for the Khalsa, however not explicitly with regard to Sarabloh Bibek or Sarabloh Granth (there are already many threads on these topics in existence), this is slightly wider...or simplier, why Sarabloh? Points to consider...(and not all necessarily Sikhi...just Sarabloh...to appreciate the ideaology) *Significance vis-a-vis other metals used in religious services, ceremonies and rituals (namely gold and copper), political/social reform... *Symbolic Value vis-a-vis availability for all/cheap (compared to gold, say), strength...tantra (importance of Iron to the Chandika/Kali aspect) and martial aspects... Look forward to your ideas and thoughts on this matter... GUR BAR AKAAAAAALLL!!! SAT SRI AKAAAAAL!!! -------------------- Dohraa Mahaa Kaal Kee Saran Jae Paray su lae bachae. Uor Na upjae doosar jag pachiyo sabhai banai.366 *Response from another forum member* Sarbloh is great!! Guru sahib himself does ustat of the power and says akal purakh himself resides in sarbloh. The power of sarbloh around your body and in your blood when doing naam simran is indescribable! I think for most of us its hard to understand, so I can explain it in western though/science. Most of the time (if you watch documenteries and things u will know) spirituality is related to our magnetic field around our body. We all have an electro magnetic field around us. Increases in this field have been measured when french nuns and tibetan monks were studied while praying. Ghost hunters also use machines that can read electromagnetic fields to find ghosts. anyway, all magnets are made from iron, iron is a metal with such a property that it effects magnetic fields in a special way. So gurbani says everything is made up of naam, naam vibrates in everything. There is a new quantum theory out that says all sub-atomic particals (proton, neurtrons, electrons) are made up of strings that are vibrating.. if you were to read a paper on this you would think of so many gurbani shabads! This single vibration is permeating everything.. so the answer science doesnt have is what is this vibration? NAAM!! So I think Sarbloh channels naam a lot better than anything else and having sarbloh around us and in us helps us channel our bhagti easier. Sarbloh has great and indescribable powers and is very beloved to our guru sahib. --------------------

In addition to the the above article, feast your eyes on this... http://www.vhp-america.org/dynamic/modules...3&orderby=hitsD

Sardar Bahadur Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Khalsa Soulja Sahib Ji!!! Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa! Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!!! I'm not a scholar or even that smart (!), so I'll only present the following links in relation to the above points: have you actually seen the kartarpuri bir? see http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm.../kartarpuri.jpg for photo and also http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagmaala/old_birs.htm in relation to your other points on the Kartarpuri Bir can you explain why the rags in ragmalla and SGGS dont match up? http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...siri_bhairo.htm and also http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...ajh_tukhari.htm why the grammar makes no sense? http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...o%20mahalla.htm why the numbering system is wrong? http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...e_numbering.htm There are more links on the site which provide a full account of Raag Maalaa assessing all the critiques thrown at it from Bhai Santokh Singh, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and all in between...apologies if you've already seen this or if these are "weak explanations" for you, but I hope this alleviates some of your Doubt in the Sri Guru of the Sikhs. GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

Sardar RupZ Sahib Ji, please find below some extracts in English, some of which you may already be familiar with (Khalsa Mero Roop hai Khaas etc -which incidently is a Shabd used by all committees, jathas, deras, sants, babas, scholars and neo-scholars (!) and in general all Keshsdhari Sikhs, when referring to the 5 Kakkars): [Gobind Singh said,] ËœI gave myself to the Khalsa; my second form is the True Guru, the Granth. The utterance of the shabad and the singing or explication of Govind's Name is the True Guru's speech. The pure Khalsa Panth was manifested, an auspicious panth [comprising] all four varnas and ashramas. Seeing them is to have darshan of the True Guru, the shabad of the Guru Granth is the Guru's speech. Thus are enumerated the twelve forms of the True Guru, O sants, these are twelve manifest suns. The manifest power of Parbraham plays itself out in the Granth and the Khalsa Panth. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, pp. 496 The Khalsa is my special form; I live in the Khalsa. The Khalsa is my mouth and limbs; I always live with the Khalsa. The Khalsa is my closest friend; the Khalsa is my joy-giving mother and father. The Khalsa is the support of my glory; the Khalsa is my kin and my friend. The Khalsa is my kin-group; the Khalsa will save me. The Khalsa is my body and breath; the Khalsa is the soul of my soul. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, p. 531. Through the grace of the Khalsa, sons, wealth and treasuries, Rule, animals, palaces, sons, wives, deeds, Armies, ministers, retinue, servants, followers, Friends, family, wealth and my dwellings increase Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, p. 532. I hope these are of help... GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

Copyright 2003 Financial Times Information All rights reserved Global News Wire Copyright 2003 The Economic Times of India, Coleman & Co Ltd The Economic Times May 18, 2003 LENGTH: 272 words HEADLINE: PANTHIC BODIES SEEK HELMET EXEMPTION FOR SIKH WOMEN BODY: LUDHIANA: Reiterating that wearing of helmets by Sikh women was against Sikh maryada, representatives of various panthic organisations, on Saturday, asked the Punjab government to issue a notification exempting them by amending the Motor Vehicle Act (MVA) 1988. The issue was discussed at a gathering of about 15 panthic outfits organised by International Human Rights Organisation (IHRO) at Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Sarabha Nagar here. Terming the legal provision as a direct interference in the Sikh religious code, it was unanimously resolved to suggest that the state government should amend the relevant Act and issue a notification exempting Sikh women from donning helmets while riding two-wheelers. They gave a month's time to the government to bring about the amendment. The Delhi government and Chandigarh administration has already issued notifications in this regard, they observed. The gathering also warned that all Sikh organisations would stage protests at all district headquarters, and Sikh women would violate the provision by driving without helmets, if the government failed to act within a month. The meeting also appreciated the Akal Takht directive excommunicating Sikh scholar Gurbux Singh Kala Afghana for his anti-Sikh writings and resolved to approach the Takht against others doing the same. Besides, they raised strong objections to the distortion of Sikh history in NCERT books. Representatives of SGPC, AISAD, SAD, Khalsa Panchayat, factions of All India Sikh Students Federation, Akhand Kirtani Jatha, Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle and Sikh Missionary College attended the meeting.

Gur Fateh! Khalsa Soulja, I like it "nuns" that "chilled" with Guru Har Rai...man, the Underground Sikhi 'massive' should get you for their next album... OK, seriously, I'd like to know what tangible evidence can be presented for the 'wife' view versus the 'celibate nun' view -we've seen some references alluding to the former, however nothing to suggest that all the marriages were virgin-wedlocks...anyway, whatever the case...as I stated elsewhere on another forum, is it really important for us to 'copy' the Gurus or 'follow' and 'understand' their hukam...? forgive any foolishness comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AAKKKAAAAALLL!!

You're telling me!!! This is not the first time either...last time a query on the following article with regard to understanding the mantras, their origins and practice was met with a response that this is not a Sikh organisation!!! Can you believe it!!! Yet SikhNet are quite happy to advertise and offer such mantra recordings in their Gurbani section!!! http://www.susankezios.com/Information/Man...%20Sadhanna.htm Can anyone here explain to me the meaning of "Ra Ma Da Sa, Sa Se So Hung"???? GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!!!

Agreed...however I am not contesting this...which is why I mentioned that "I have personally always found this reasoning to be a tad too loose and shady, however there does appear to be ample evidence to suggest that the Guru's in question had more than one wife...why? I couldn't answer (at present)...in an adequate manner... " Sorry if I have offended you in anyway...

Gur Fateh! Everyone, thanks for your contribution thus far...keep it coming...in addition to the AKAAL MANTR, I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on KAAL DARSHAN? I've come across this in conversation/katha, but am uncertain to what it exactly refers -are these two related? GUR BAR AKAAAAL!!! n.b. YES, I do mean 'Kaal' and not 'Akaal'

Snigga Sahib! Gur Fateh! Thanks for your 'hard-hitting' post! OK, let's keep jathebandis and what not out of this as you say. Just to comment on your closing comments, the admin in question is not from SIKHAWARENESS but from WWW.SIKHNET.COM and I suggest that anyone who wishes to raise this matter write to them directly, since they appear to boycott my posts despite me having many friends in the associated organisation to which they belong...anyway...just wished to clarify matters... SAT SRI AKAAAAL!

Gur Fateh! Rupz, thanks for getting back to me. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, and agree this isn't an easy topic to stomach, however, find your description a little hard to follow. Allow me to explain, if Consort really did mean 'associate, partner, co-worker' as you suggest, then surely Mai Bhago would qualify as a Guru Gobind Singh's consort as she was effectively his 'associate and co-worker' in her role as his personal bodyguard...however do refer to her as such would be sheer absurdity, would it not? My understanding of the term 'consort' is of a spouse or companion or more formally as a 'noun' the husband or wife of a reigning monarch -this woud coincide with the somewhat simplified reasoning eldar Sardars and Sardarnia have used to explain this matter [i.e. Guru Gobind Singh created a Darbar and in challenge to the Rajput and Moghul rulers also kept more than one wife] I'll admit that I have personally always found this reasoning to be a tad too loose and shady, however there does appear to be ample evidence to suggest that the Guru's in question had more than one wife...why? I couldn't answer (at present)...in an adequate manner... For some more formal definitions of consort please see the note below. As per polygamy, whether or not it is acceptable, it's certainly not feasible in Punjabi Sikh communities given the dwindling numbers of females owing to the sheer stupidity and disgrace that leads to the levels of 'Kurimar' and/or 'Narimar' that occurs to date in Punjab...and elsewhere... [NOTE: I am not trying to promote polygamy!] Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!!! note referred to: 1. One who shares the lot of another; a companion; a partner; especially, a wife or husband. --Milton. 2. To unite or to keep company; to associate; -- used with with. Which of the Grecian chiefs consorts with thee? --Dryden. 3. To unite or join, as in affection, harmony, company, marriage, etc.; to associate. He with his consorted Eve. --Milton. For all that pleasing is to living ears Was there consorted in one harmony. --Spenser. He begins to consort himself with men. --Locke.

Gur Fateh! Rupz, please could you differentiate between the role of a consort and a wife? I'm not sure I entirely follow :stupid: Also you're point about the use of KAUR is valid...not even Guru GobindSingh's wives had this name... GUR BAR AKAAAAL!