Niranjana

karmjeet wrote: "now niranjana, if u look at the post i made abt asking if people r getting the correct idea , i think most of them r getting the right idea so far" to which the infamous w-bol wrote: "veer karmjeet, tusi osnu chad deo. osnu punjabi boli nahi aandi esi karke oh confuse ho chuka wa. enha goria nu ke pata kay punjabi de "ek" word de naal kiney meaning banaye jaa sakde hun aur ek meaning nu samjhaan vastey asi punjabi wich bahut saarey words use kar sakdey ha. Ehi ta khoobi wa punjabi bolan waliya d, magar enha goria nu samjh nahi aan lagi." karmjeet, I believe our discussion on this point has been finalised with plenty of elaboration and elucidation - it is still a shame that you are unable to notice the grave issues facing one with an attitude such as yours (i.e. "I don't try to be correct in what I say"), anyhow, I do not wish to begin a new argument on semantics, bottom line that clarification has been provided and we agree on the fundamental underlying point. Nonetheless, people like you on this forum make statements like "our Atma's are soiled, hence why we need to do paath" whereas the Atma cannot be soiled, only the mind, but nevermind I guess "people know what you're talking about, so what's the need to be correct!" w-bol, You're really something! Do you know me to make a statement like: "osnu punjabi boli nahi aandi" And then go on to make a comment like: "enha goria nu ke pata" What makes you think you are correct in any of the above??? The fact that you go on to make the comment: "punjabi de "ek" word de naal kiney meaning banaye jaa sakde" shows just how much of a fool you really are and here's why in the event your foolish mind cannot understand: 1. You accuse me of having no understanding of Punjabi, yet in your own sentence you fail to use the correct Punjabi terms for "word", "meaning", "use" defaulting to English instead and in the process demonstrating your lack of Punjabi vocabulary, yet have the audacity to suggest that I don't know how to speak Punjabi since I am a Gora (White Male)! 2. The fact that Punjabi words have more than one meaning is (a) not unique to the Punjabi language alone and more to the point ( doesn't change what the underlying point of the discussion was, namely that Brahm-Gyan is not something that one can "parapat", however you clearly have no understanding of debate and instead choose to make cheap shots at someone based on their supposed ethnicity, which given your earlier posts concerning immigrants in Punjab and views on the Middle East show how much of a moronic racist individual you really are, what makes it all the funnier is that you're dying to move to the West - what do you think, the "Gorey" here won't hold the same view towards you, that you hold about the immigrants to Punjab!!! You are really a piece of work! Oh proud son of the land of five rivers, learn to speak your own Language properly since you are destroying its "khoobi"!!!

Jassa: "just reading from sites or magazines would not help u gaining info about nihung singhs ... come and stay with dal ..." As I have indicated, this is not info from some "sites or magazines", this is from the Dal itself. Bottom line, if Joginder Singh is struggling to tackle this issue, there clearly is an issue, you and all others here are in denial, simple as that! At least, "Angrez British Raj influenced modern day Sikhs" can admit to problems within their ranks, shame that the Nihangs have to resort to denial and petty word games. "and lastly how come shuder getting amrit before anyone else dont make budhadal shuder pro jathebandi if jatt getting before khatri makes is jatt pro jathebandi ... ??? or its just u want to see it like that ... if thats the case sorry i cant help u ... " Please grow up and stop analysing the serious situation like a child. Malwe da Sher: "Although I think you are over exaggerating the issue, I have said that there is some caste discrimination in the dal which has been present over the years and Baba Joginder Singh has been trying to tackle it - what else do you want to be said on this issue?" Nihang Jee, I don't believe I am over exaggerating the issue at all. It is simple, if I am lying, please could all the Nihangs come out unequivocally that there is no existence of a "chautha paur" for Langar, for Amrit Sanchar or any other purpose. Nihang Niddar Singh of the UK Nihang Akhara has clearly mentioned and acknowledged the existence of the "Chautha Paur", both within his own writings (the infamous book "typed by various students") and in person (at the Kings University talk a few years back). Despite what may get said about him, at least he is not living in denial, but I digress... Perhaps other factions of the Buddha Dal in the UK, Canada and India can obtain statements to counter Niddar Singh's acknowlegdement and prove me wrong - maybe Jassa Singh, being in India, you can touch base with Jathedar Bawa Singh Ji (Chief of a group of Ranghreta Nihangs) and ask him about the Chautha Paur - yes, he is a Farladhari Nihang who probably didn't get beaten up, so maybe you have a chance here to correct me in my "over exaggerated" view. "Witnessing a Budha Dal amrit sanchar I can say that caste is asked but incidently jatts got amrit last." This doesn't mean anything! There are Buddha Dal amrit sanchars in which the bata is kept separate for those in the "chautha paur".

Using that mindset, technically, we are all committing incest since Humanity is defined as one brotherhood several times in Gurbani. Let's grow up.

Jassa, maybe there is a language issue here, but I really can't follow your broken English, but here goes: 1. The reference to the UK was used as an example to address the irrelevant points YOU have brought up to justify or at best, sweep under the carpet, the inherent issue of caste discrimination in the Buddha Dal. Whether you care about the UK or not is not important, if you read what I have written, it answers your questions clearly. 2. It seems you are clearly sheilded from the reality of what happens on the ground - bottom line is if I am 'lying' or 'distorting' the accounts, as you and others are now alluding to (re: I have never seen this in Punjab blah blah), then why would Baba Joginder Singh be struggling in Punjab within the Buddha Dal to address the very issues I have raised here repeatedly - or is he just lying as well, because YOU personally have never witnessed this! 3. Where are all the "ture form of the Khalsa" revivalists - they've made plenty of noise in the past about angrez-sikhi and what not, where are the academics of the Nihangs now? Why can't they face up and admit to problems in house, rather than furthering the problem in the name of "maryada"?!!

I think our individual expressions are meeting at a natural conclusion. Good discussing with you on this thread. Gur Fateh Sardar Sahib!

Karmjeet, "but as long as people get the basic idea its fine" That's precisely the point. You chose to ascribe a meaning to a defined word (prapti) which makes your initial statement sound incorrect or insulting (depending on how you choose to take these things). So, people are clearly NOT getting the basic idea!!! So it is NOT fine!!! "Although 'prapti 'might be an incorrect term, but I think people would get the idea or some even the wrong idea" Exactly, some would get the WRONG idea and its not their fault, it is YOUR communication problem!

Xylitol: "lack of scientific methodology and no overseeing body to keep out quacks has resulted in the entire field as a whole degenerating" Fine - I will not discount this, however the majority of publicly available Auyrvedic literature is little more than quackery, be it the cheap shots that Deepak Chopra pulls or more established and perhaps "authentic" figures. Ask any Auyrvedic doctor for an explanation of how his treatment/remedy works, invariably the words "philosophy, faith, prayer etc" come into his explanation - I have no problem with thosse concepts, however, then let's accept that it is not a science but is theology/philosophy.

"so i have heard a part of it and sarbloh granth has the answer of ever why how and what regarding mareyada and jeevan of khalsa panth including amrit sanchar ... " OK, please outline and explain in detail the following: 1. Why exactly are Mazhbis are provided a separate Langar and made to sit separately from the remainder of the Dal? 2. Why, if a non-Mazhbi Nihang commits a kurehit, as part of his sentence, he maybe asked to eat langar within the "Chautha Paur"? This blantantly indicates that Mazhbis are regarded as 'dirty' and that sitting next to them and sharing their food is "punishment" - please explain this fully using the Maha Katha of the Sri Sarabloh Prakash. 3. Why are there many cases of non-Mazhbi neophytes who are not "jimidars" (i.e. Jatts) also included within the "Chautha Paur", if this isn't indication enough that the Buddha Dal is moving towards a system of caste discrimination where Jatts are regarded as the "top dogs" I don't know what is - maybe some Maha-Akali-Baba-96-Crore-Tyar-bar-Tyar-Chaldha-Vaheer-Brahmgyani-Nihang-Khalsa-Jee can provide you with some 'authentic oral tradition' to account for this?

Jassa asked: "if budhadal is a pro jatt jathebandi ... how come baba santa singh who is sultane kaum be a non jatt ... he is an arora sikh ..." If you go back and read the thread, this issue has been addressed. The fact that Udey Singh and Baba Santa Singh are Aroras has no impact on what actually happens on the ground, which is exactly what I have described - please could the "Guru ki Ladli" fauj actually address the issue rather than trying to divert the topic! "actualy the problem is budhadal has its base in villages ... among jatts ... 80 % form jatts ... its natural to have bond ... malvai cant mix with singhs from majha .. because of language ... is it anti sikhi ???" Jassa, in the UK, there is much in the way of caste-based biradharis, which form tight-knit communities, can be identified by their speech, turban style etc, in the way the rest of your post seeks to defend the pro-Jatt discrimination at Langars and Amrit Sanchar. We have caste-based Gurdwara committees, however even there one does not find Ramgarhias or Ravidasias or Jatts bastardising the very Amrit Sanchar ceremony or the Pangat of the Langar through the introduction of the "Chautha Paur". "if u look at itehas budhdal has faught against brar jatts of malva ... why ??? wasnt at that time it was singhs vs jatts ... " We are talking about what is happening today right now, history is great, but only if we can learn from it, clearly it seems the Buddha Dal haven't been able to and want to return to some form of Manusimriti format where Jatts become the new Brahmins. "But in nihungs whats inside is outside ... yes their is racism ... but it dont have any negitive effect ... if u have kammai and seva no matter u are khatri or shudar ... one so called jatt nihung singh would give u more respect then his fellow jatts ..." That's right Jassa, so when a "Mazbi" Nihang was given a farla on the basis of his "kammai and seva" why was he subsequently beaten up???!!! "i dont think so its wrong to ask what jaat u belong to because chandal is a jaat which is not given amrit according to puratan amrit sanchar tradition ... this is the reason of asking race ... and what matters is whats ur jaat after amrit sanchar its khatri ... singh is a khatri surname ... baba bachiter singh was bachiter singh even before taking khande di paul .. and thats a seprate issue ... so asking ur jaat on amrit sanchars in not for pro jatt etc but to know ur background ... and to confirm you dont belong to chandal jaat ... " Jassa, that is simply a loads of "b*llocks" to be quite frank. Re-read my comments and clearly you will see it is a racist practice and one that has now become pro-Jatt.

karmjeet, Sorry to say, but that sounds like a really cheap cop out! The matter at hand here does not concern "scholarly stuff" as you put. "scholarly gyan and education will fail" If you feel this way, then why not undo your education to date and if you are at University, drop out. Let me know how you get on through life as a result and how this benefits your spiritual practice. You seem to be using Gurbani now to justify your lack of language skills - which is rather appalling! But to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps what you "mean" to say (but are not actually saying) is exactly the same point as I have been making above: "prapti" of Brahmgyan cannot be done, only "realisation" of Brahmgyan. There is nothing scholarly about this issue, it is basic Gurmat and to a large extent Vedant, something that I believe the 5 Banis in themselves reveal to us - or is understanding paath now "scholarly stuff" for you? The reason I brough up the issue is not to argue semantics, but to clarify for the benefit of all readers, that Sikhi (and as mentioned Vendanta) does not support the concept of "acquiring" (prapti) Brahmn-gyan, one can 'acquire' wordly knowledge/education (as you probably 'meant' to say, this knowledge will 'fail' from a spiritual perspective) . This "wordly" knowledge/education is not self-evident, it requires verification etc, hence my earlier comments concerning Brahmgyan being self-evident and not requiring verification - hence the difference and why suggesting "prapti" of Brahm is flawed. These are things that the Gurus have taught us, so I don't see why you are now refusing to work to understand them - in fact, you are even try and use Gurbani (incorrectly) to argue against the notion presented!

Chatanga, with due respect, given it is you asking, I cannot tell if you are joking or not!

Neo - I would recommend using sources available online to assess the validity of these systems. I am not suggesting that they are total baloney, however what they claim they can do and that too in a supposed scientific manner is precisely baloney. By the same token, I would echo a voice of caution, there are pro-Western science articles which totally nullify all 'alternative' treatments including chiropractioners and oesteopaths etc (granted these professions have their fair share of chalartans, but which doesn't), however in some instances these are backed by large pharmaceutical companies for obvious underlying agendas.

Shaheediyan, With due respect, you are now highlighting political issues with the Darbar Sahib, I believe the biography of Bhagat Puran Singh (H K Sekhon) highlights the issues Bhagat Jee had with the SGPC in full and why he chose to be separate from its affiliations. Bhagat Jee did indeed establish a perfect example of nishkam seva, it is a shame however that Sikhs haven't developed his truly inspiring efforts when we compare us to say "heretical" sects such as the Radhosoamis and others who have managed to set up state of the art hospitals and so forth. Pingalwaras are indeed the ideal we need to work with, the current Bibi Jee who heads up the service is a remarkable lady and it is pleasing to know she is working hard to forward Bhagat Jee's hardwork, just a shame that she has so many hurdles to jump through to keep the ball rolling.

Karmjeet asked: "What is Truth ?" This is a great question and one I personally would love the forum to discuss at length. Khushwant Singh in his critique of "the system of Nanak" posits this question as a potential problem whilst stating that "the system of Nanak" does overcome many of the problems of other belief systems and philosophies. Gurbani makes many references to the "truth", indeed we all worship the "truth" (Sat Sri Akal), so it is very easy to give a simple truth = God style answer, but I personally feel that this is a fundamental discussion that we should have to explore Gurmat in full. Please could the learned members of our forum kindly provide their thoughts.

"And sometimes i feel that yes its sometimes best to remain an agiani that to have your sentiments surt when science goes up the back ally, but then that all boils down to how strong your faith is" MKS, why would you want to remain an agiani, if that was the case, why even bother with Sikhi? Why not worship the elements or perform sacrifices to the Sun God on a solar ecilpse? Why do you deny these forms of "faith" if that is all one needs? Precisely because of scientific enquiry, so please do not fall for that typical, science is evil since it undermines my religious beliefs trap. And to some extent i agree with your notion that using science as a medium can have an adverse effect, but then before the movement tof science towards atheism weren't science and religion drinking out of the same cup? "And to some extent i agree with your notion that using science as a medium can have an adverse effect, but then before the movement tof science towards atheism weren't science and religion drinking out of the same cup?" In many cases yes, during the Dark Ages, the Western World was perhaps the most unscientific, free-speech repressing place one could find, it was in fact the Muslim world which brought scientific enquiry to the West (whether or it initiated in the Muslim world or in Africa or in India is another matter altogether), the underlying point being that yes, it was perfectly compatable to have scientific enquiry in its proper sense (and not the pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that faith-healers and astrologers brandish about) whilst holding onto and practising one's religious duties and beliefs. I would recommend people explore the writings of Abu Hāmed Mohammad ibn Mohammad al-Ghazzālī, a polygot and mystic who also pioneered much in the way of philisophical-skeptism, showing just how compatible skeptical and critical analysis are with theology and philisophy. Here is the obvious common link to get started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

sag_roti2, Please spare me that "The western medecine is only now starting to discover what were considered 'folk tales' actually do work!" talk, there are clear studies showing that auyrveda poses high exposure to heavy metals in many of its 'remedies'. Not only that, but Indians and New Age Hippies love to regard Auyrveda as a science, yet any explanation that Auyrveda provides for its remedies uses totally unscientific notions such as: - philisophy - prayers - miracle cures These are items which require faith, not science, so let's leave aside the famous "old is gold" thinking that Indians are obsessed with and wake to smell the roses. "Even staunch advocates of Ayurveda like cardiologist Dr. M.S. Valiathan admit that 'clinical studies that would satisfy the liberal criteria of WHO World Health Organisation have been alarmingly few from India, in spite of patients crowding in Ayurvedic hospitals" (wikipedia can provide you sources for this statement). Ayurvedic claims that the symptoms of disease are always related to the balance of the doshas, which can be determined by feeling the patient's wrist pulse or completing a questionnaire. The fact is that using pulse one cannotdetect diabetes, cancer, musculoskeletal disease, asthma, and "imbalances at early stages when there may be no other clinical signs and when mild forms of intervention may suffice" as proponents of this "ancient indian medical system" like to suggest. I'm sure you can adequately research the topic to find further information for yourself. I was myself at one time an avid believer in this system and followed it fully under a licensed practioner, reality is that it is little more than sophisticated quackery. But then if you buy into Deepak Chopra's "ageless body timeless mind" rhetoric, then I guess you'll love Auyrveda and find 'modern western science' to be the root of all evil!

"You cant just take words and interpret them totally differently, single word can imply several different meanings" Karmjeet, This comment applies 100% to you. "Har payiye" does not equate to "prapti" in the manner you are now suggesting. The fact that you open up with the statement: "Well when I wrote the word Prapti I just wrote it as it came to my mind, just as intuition, when I write words I dont try to analyze them and try to think of the various interpretations that the word can have. Because I dont try to be correct, I write as it comes." Simply shows that it is not worth discussing this item with you - the above statement is so senseless that I now doubt you will understand why if one was to explain the flaws in your reasoning concerning "I dont try to be correct", I mean really, you are priveldged with an education and you use this nonsense as 'reason'! Come on Sardar Sahib, I'm sure you can do better than that!

Xylitol, As you clearly concede, "some have the ulterior motive of gaining control of the Akaal Takht", the fact that you believe others don't is nice, however doesn't really change the premise of my statement. Sampradhas may point out their supposed support for each other, however it is nothing but politics in the competition for obtaining control over the Akal Thakt and its funding. Reality is quite clear, during the 1980s, tension between Nihangs, DDT and AKJ was ample and clear for all to see. In the past before that, tension between Nihangs and Nirmalas was more than evident. Likewise, today between Sant Samaj and the AKJ. w-bol, divisions (I believe is the word you were looking for rather than diversions?) will result in any organisation and politics will emerge, its only natural and Sikhi as an organised religion is subject to it as is any other - what we need to do as individuals is have any balls to see through the supposed 'religiousity' that garbs the political aspirations.

amardeep, Look at the 8 puratan rehitnamas, there are several quotes you can make use of concerning the method in which Sikhs historically were asked to set aside their 10%.

MKS you write: "there is no harm in using science to propagate Sikhi by the medium of science" I have shown you exactly what the problems are - you justify something which according to you religious people is an infalliable and timeless scripture, which in the case of the Sikhs is regarded to be their living Guru, yet using science to support meta-physical notions is absurd in itself since science does not claim to be infalliable and timeless, but constantly evolving. So what's the harm, quite simple: For the past 20 years I've been hearing Gyanis and middle class Sikhs revel in glee that their reading of selected (and in somecases quite amusingly selective) verses from Gurbani tally with the Big Bang theory. So fine, according to you "Sehajdharis", "Atheists" and "typical Punjabi background confused English desis" (whatever that is) can be "pull(ed) towards the path of Sikhi" What you are really saying is they can be "duped" into Sikhi through such pseudo-scientific nonsense, just like people today are duped into astrology by stupid claims of gravitational pulls from Planets on earth and water and hence Humans (yes, several idiots can buy into such nonsense, including those 'chardi-kala, better than Punjabi' 3HO sikhs, but that's another story), even though anyone with true scientific understanding can nullify such absurdity very quickly. Anyhow, tomorrow, science formally invalidates the Big Bang Theory, what then comes of the "Sikhi is a scientific religion" malarky??? All these people that you have duped, sorry I mean "pull(ed) towards the path of Sikhi", will see through the bulls**t and again leave Sikhi and take several others with them exposing the lies upon which such parchar has been built. This is precisely why many intelligent young Sardars and Sardarnia I have met/come into contact in the past in North America, the UK and India, after much soul-searching and receiving nonsense pseudo-scientific rationale for simple things like keep Kesh (i.e. the usual baloney of "it is natural" or "it gives you more oxygen" or "science has shown it provides more power" - what utter tripe!) go and cut their hair. I am sure if they were told simply that it is the insignia of the Guru (along with the kakkars/treh mudra just as all traditional Sikh texts mention), that they represent ideals and that ideals are worth fighting for, these individuals may have remained Sardars and contributed to the Panth with their otherwise material success (i.e. these people were intellectuals who have gone on to become medics, scholars, politicians etc - all skills which the Panth will benefit from, as opposed to the Punjabi Mona-Kona that you perhaps refer to in your post). So I would like to clarify my argument clearly, there is a grave danger of using science as the barometer for validating your religious beliefs, unless you have the balls to accept that at some point, your religious beliefs will be nullified by scientific enquiry, which is precisely the job of such enquiry - yet those who love the "sikhi is scientific" approach, rarely have the stomach for addressing the inenvitable questions that arise from such an analysis.

"He was well regarded as such by sants such as Giani Thakur Singh ji" Xylitol, what qualifies Gyani Thakur Singh as a Sant? Moreover, Gyani Thakur Singh possibly has high regards many people, are they all Sants now?

Karmjeet wrote: " just used the word prapti from my common punjabi ; several words can imply the same meaning like Naam Di Prapti, Naam Daan, Brahmgyan milna, Prabhu De Charan hirde vich vasne" Sorry to disappoint you, however common Punjabi does not use prapti in the manner you suggest, unless you deem Vaheguru to be some "thing" you can "obtain". I am surprised by your use of the term "prapti" here, given the the numerous posts you have made here speaking about meta-physical aspects of Gurmat, yet this simple flaw in your statement has been over looked. "Brahm-gyan" is not 'gyan' in terms of 'knowledge' or 'memory', as is commonly the case with mundane knowledge (i.e. knowledge of the world etc), I believe you have made such assertions in the past. If this is the case, then "Brahm-gyan" is more akin to "realisation", therefore one can do "prapti" of Brahm-gyan, one can only "realise" Brahm (Vaheguru). i.e. Brahm-gyan or Vaheguru is not 'something' to be "obtained" (prapat), as you several comments above would allude, since Vaheguru, being omnipotent, omni-present etc etc, is not 'something' to be externally obtained (prapat), only to be realised. Brahm-gyan is self-proved, self-evident, it requires no verification from elsewhere, hence your statement "to do prapti of Vaheguru" is fundamentally flawed. I am sure this is not what you meant, however let's be clear about what we are using, since in English or Punjabi, your statement reads either as an insult to Vaheguru (i.e. reducing the unlimited to 'something') and/or as someone who believes in some bizarre form of dualism.

"Sure money may be spent on non-sikhs, yet at the same if it is given to a so-called "Sikh cause" then there will be arguments that it was only given to 'jatt-sikhs' or 'non-jatt sikhs' or they are 'fake sikhs' LOL... and don't be surprised to hear these 5-year kind of thinking coming from 40 something jathedars!" Classic!!!

"The average human being is infected with the 5 vikaars, and kaam in a major one. Rather than soil your mind with kaam and end up soiling your deeds as well, best is to get married and lead a happy married life with your spouse" Mehtab Singh, Thanks for calling a spade a spade, rather than dwell into idealised and romaticised "spiritual" connections for marriage, which will not answer the basic question posited by w-bol. W-bol, Bottom line is, as one can evidence from your various other posts*, your top two "exoteric" requirements currently boil down to: 1. Emigrating away from SE Asia, whether that be to Canada or the West or Russia, just anywhere but India or the Middle East. 2. Sowing your wild oats/getting some action, if you allow me to express it as such. Clearly as you have identified marriage will allow you to clearly undertake (2) within the respectable bounds of religious belief and possibly even (1) should you be able to secure the right partner. Once this is done, you can focus on more spiritual pursuits with relative ease in the satisfaction that your current "worldly" requirements have been met! Note referred to at *: (re: (i)can I get married since my girlfriend has left me but we promised each other in front of Maharaj to get married (ii) can I marry a woman with shaped eyebrows (!) and (iii) I'm looking forward to the suggestion Russian women want to marry Indian guys so it can help me with my immigration out of SE Asia)

Shaheediyan, I note your selective use of the above quote, however I would argue that the following from the same author places in within the wider context: "No one is saying that every penny of Sikh donations needs to be spent on Sikhs but at the moment I would be surprised if any more than 1% of Sikh donations from the west goes to Sikh causes."