guv

using the scientific & mathematical processes as both infallible and the absolute and unsubjective truth we can test Mission_Impossible's hypotheses of: 1. Sikhism = spiritual truth 2. Krishna = narcissistic fraud/charlatan http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5360 In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| This Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390. According to the above shabad, You = Krishna. Also, You = Guru Nanak = Guru Angad = Guru Amar Das. Since the subject is not changed during the shabad (infact, it's never defined) it is logical to assume that 'You' refers to the same subject throughout. Therefore, Krishna = Guru Nanak. According to hypothesis 2, Krishna = narcissistic fraud/charlatan. Therefore, Guru Nanak = narcissistic fraud/charlatan. The shabad was taken from the current Guru of Sikhism, Guru Granth Sahib. Therefore it is logical to infer that the teachings and writings of Guru Granth Sahib form the basis of Sikhism. Many of the writings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji (and so of Sikhism) are written by Guru Nanak. And since Guru Nanak = narcissistic fraud/charlatan, it is logical to conclude that Sikhism = false. The above conclusion is reached using the axiom that there is only absolute truth and absolute false with no in-between (ie. if Guru Nanak's writings are false all of Sikhism is false, no matter how true the rest of the writings in Guru Granth Sahib may be) Therefore hypothesis 1 is incorrect, else hypothesis 2 is incorrect! :wink: if anyone thinks i'm being overly pedantic, i am just trying to assertain the validity of the hypotheses put forward by Mission_Impossible using the currently adopted scientific processes (ie first hypothesise, then test by falsifiability.) in other words, i'm taking the piss!!

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/guru_gobind.html the first picture is a painting of guru gobind singh ji wearing earrings. it doesn't look like any of the other singhs are wearing any.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3376 story of guru amar das ji's departure and succession by guru ram das. the application of a tilak is mentioned, saying it is the true nishani (sign) of gur shabad. (i don't know if it is meant metaphorically or literally) also interestingly, the gurgaddi is referred to as the throne of raja yoga.

is that imam ali's (a.w.) saif?

according to: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/0023.html bees saptaaro means twenty seven constellations

nogroup singh, about your quotations, i agree with u that the whole shabad must be read to get a feeling of the context in which they are written... but also, care must be taken to read which word is used in the gurbani because there are many different words which are all (sometimes falsely) translated as simply 'hair'.

i havnt heard of that before... could u provide a reference please. thanks

what is the nanakshahi calender?

please explain what u mean by that do u have any references for that?

i posted up this article on the aarti-aarta ceremony a month ago, & noone has raised any objections to it. does that mean that everyone is happy with the aarti-aarta ceremony being performed?

i put up a similar reply in another thread... read what the definition of kesh is in the mahan kosh or even better in a sanskriti dictionary... then try & answer the question.

gurbani seems to disagree with u there: hi(n)dhoo a(n)nuaa thurukoo kaanaa || The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. dhuhaa(n) thae giaanee siaanaa || The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them.

have a look in mahan kosh or any sanskrit dictionary what kesh means... then try answering the question

can u explain what u mean by that please.

i just wanna say i'm disgusted at most of the replies on this topic!... brother muhammad has come onto this site & has merely asked a question on sikhi, but everyone seems to have taken it as an attack & instead of just answering his question straight have proceeded to compare the two religions (with the islamic references being derogatory) & dont reply & say u havnt!!... steel bangle & khalsa soulja have both done so, when it's completely uncalled for! (of course u've done so with a 'no offence intended' badge added!) inshallah we can all get on as brothers in the future, without bringing our preconceptions & prejudices into the conversations.

thanks for the response... sorry for my late reply... half way through exams!! :twisted: wow... i didnt know about the spiritual levels that people had achieved... where can i get a copy of 'the imbued ones'? so did bhai sahib use spiritual powers to convert the copper? or was it with a formula?... & if so, did he write it down anywhere? :wink: also, i was thinking about the sikhia of the story... & although i get the point about that maya can distract u from akaal purakh, but what if u use the money to help others... i mean a lot of seva could have been done & a lot could have been done for the panth... dont u think? 8)

this is a really beautiful email i got from someone who read the post i made... not sure about the dead elders thing, gonna have to look into that, but i thought i'd post it in its entirety.

from the translation u've written, maya also "torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation." so whether u live a gristi jeevan or live in the mountains it will torment u. if u try & use that quote u posted to say music & parties are sinful, then u have to also accept that both gristi jeevan & renunciation are sins too... so what are we supposed to do?? i havent checked up on the shabad... i just made my comments from what u posted. try thinking a little bit about what the shabad is saying... what is the message that guru ji wants u to learn. from what u've posted, "It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the Lord." it's not making a comment on specific things... maya torments u no matter what u do, unless u have love for guru. let me know what u think.

why does everyone always think of dance as having to go hand in hand with some seedy smoky club?? one time, a few of us singhs got together & started singing chaupee & jaap sahib. one of the singhs (really simple & spiritual guy) got full of energy & got up & started dancing... he was in pure ecstasy! he was dancing to show his pyaar to akaal purkh... & i think it was a most beautiful expression of his love! jagroop & jassa, as i stated in my first post... the issue i have is not with someones views, but with people trying to use gurbani completely out of context just to support their views! & it's a huge shame that today we place so little emphasis or respect on gian, instead most of what we 'know' is from hear'say & folk tales. i had this exact same debate (dancing & the misquoting of gurbani) on another forum... rather than me reposting everything from there, u can see the whole thread at: http://www.sikhi.org.uk/msgboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=521 hopefully that'll give u a better idea of what i'm talking about. khalsa soulja, if u had read my first post :roll: :roll: ... it's all there... just follow the link... when have i ever said music makes no difference to spirituality?? :twisted: :twisted: the only point i made, & i'm making again is that u shouldnt quote maharajs bani out of context just so that it supports YOUR views! (oh, & basing your sikhi solely on what people do in gurdware isnt a good idea! 8) ) i'd like u to prove that they didnt... without just personal opinion! just because u cant imagine it, doesnt mean it didnt happen! :wink: i can just see it now, guru gobind singh ji in some don shades 8) moonwalking!! (btw, <- for those of u that dont get the laughing faces, that was a joke!) if u want to quote gurbani for whatever reason, have the courtesy & respect for the bani to at least check it's sanskrit roots or ask someone who is very knowledgeable in the area to get an understanding of the true meaning of the shabad. check out http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com for prof sahib singhs steekh on sri guru granth sahib ji where he goes into the sanskrit roots of each word. if u have any love for your guru & respect for guru's bani, then my humble benti is... please dont use & abuse!! :evil: gurfateh!

i understand the important sikhia that can be learned from the sakhi... thanks. but then does that mean that the sakhi is not true? did bhai sahib randhir singh write it as a metaphorical tale meant to teach a valuable lesson into the effects of maya, or did it really happen?

khalsa soulja, from your first post it's obvious u either havent read my response or u're just trying to play dumb! as regards your second post, using what is & isnt acceptable in a gurdwara is a poor way of justifying whether something is against sikhi! & i have seen bhangra being done in a gurdwara in holland... in fact, the granthi was the one playing the dhol!! & i've also seen bacon & eggs being served in a gurdwara in the uk... so do u now accept that it's ok to eat bacon & eggs? i get your point about the ying & yang thing... but then do u have the knowledge of where the middle ground is? do u know the context in which each of the shabads was written? do u know about the mood of each raag & how it affects the meaning of the shabad? do u know the roots of each word in sanskrit? have u even studied sanskrit or any of the other languages in guru granth sahib ji? it's easy to read the english translation & think that's it... but there's so much more, & as u claim u know exactly what each of the quotes u posted means, i would like to know what education into gurbani & the languages contained therein u have received & from where.

didnt guru gobind singh ji dress up in green as a fakir once to get past a moghul checkpoint... i'll have to check up on it... but i'm sure i've read that.

i think there has been some very interesting points raised on this topic. bhai sahib... u say in your last post that dynamic_banda has not commented on any of the points u raised, but looking at his post it looks like he answered all of your questions, although i would like to see what he replies to the new questions u have raised. i have skim read bhai randhirs autobiography, this was a few years ago, but something that stuck with me was that he claimed to have transformed copper into gold using some kind of chemical formula & if i remember correctly, he also said that the authenticity of the gold was checked. please could someone verify that. 8) my point is that there's no way to chemically transform copper into gold... that's known as alchemy, but no way of doing it was ever discovered. so how can bhai randhir singh claim to have done it? :?

a study was done in germany to the effects of having cold showers. a control group was instructed to have their normal hot showers as usual. a test group was told to have a hot shower, then at the end have a 'cold blast' for a couple of minutes. after 6 months, they found that the test group had suffered half as many colds & minor infections as the control group, because the cold showers actually boosted their immune systems. i also saw a program on tv once about people who live in siberia. they came outside in the freezing cold in nothing more than swimming costumes & each person had a bucket of cold water thrown over them :shock: . apparently it was an age old technique they had of boosting their immune systems!! so cold showers are good for u!! there's a couple of tricks u can use to make it easier... either bring your body slowly into the water, start of with feet & legs first etc (a moveable shower head is brilliant for this) or start of with tepid water & slowly decrease the temperature. u shouldnt have too cold a shower or stay for too long in the shower because u'll stop all blood flow to your skin. trust me, sounds silly & unbelievable, but after a week of having cold showers, u wont want to go back to hot showers!!! & the feeling u get after showering of your warm blood working its way back into ur skin is amazing!!

oh come on!! this is silly... u guys are taking maharaj's bani completely out of context!!!!!!! i consider that complete biadbee, because your trying to twist gurbani to fit what u want it to say... i could prove almost anything by quoting gurbani out of context... even murder!!... take the following: "Sitting down, standing up, sleeping and waking, forever and ever, meditate on the Lord. He may have the most wondrous and beautiful arenas, and be victorious on the field of battle. He may proclaim, "I can kill anyone, I can capture anyone, and I can release anyone."" seems like it's ok to murder eh?? check out the full shabad to see what it's really talking about: http://www.sikhitothemax.com/PageASP.asp?ShabadID=1473 if we take your quote about the dancing prostitute... read the full shabad: http://www.sikhitothemax.com/PageASP.asp?ShabadID=4153 there u'll see that it's saying that a sinner is like a prostitute who lives to sexually arouse others, but forgets about akaal purkh & that death awaits... the shabad has NOTHING to do with dancing!! i suspect exactly the same can be said about all the other quotes khalsa-soolj put up... i would check, but frankly i cant be bothered. all u've done is searched up all quotes on dancing & without actually seeing what guru ji is saying making assumptions on what it means & posting it up to back up your views.... note, YOUR views not necessarily the guru's views! that is really disgusting, if u wish to quote maharaj's bani... thur ki bani aiee!!... then please at least have the decency to check the actual message that guru ji is giving us rather than twisting it to what U WANT IT TO SAY! that's all i'll say on the matter