Is SGGS the True Guru ?

[begum]

Is SGGS the True Guru ?

SGGS surely talks about True Guru in verses of various authors.

Page 8, Line 14

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik­oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 10, Line 2

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਜਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਤਪੁਰਖਾ ਬਿਨਉ ਕਰਉ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥

हरि के जन सतिगुर सतपुरखा बिनउ करउ गुर पासि ॥

Har kė jan saṯgur saṯpurkẖā bina­o kara­o gur pās.

O humble servant of the Lord, O True Guru, O True Primal Being: I offer my humble prayer to You, O Guru.

Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 10, Line 2

ਹਮ ਕੀਰੇ ਕਿਰਮ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥੧॥

हम कीरे किरम सतिगुर सरणाई करि दइआ नामु परगासि ॥१॥

Ham kīrė kiram saṯgur sarṇā­ī kar ḏa­i­ā nām pargās. ||1||

I am a mere insect, a worm. O True Guru, I seek Your Sanctuary. Please be merciful, and bless me with the Light of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||

Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 10, Line 6

ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਏ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵੇ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਾਸਿ ॥੩॥

जो सतिगुर सरणि संगति नही आए ध्रिगु जीवे ध्रिगु जीवासि ॥३॥

Jo saṯgur saraṇ sangaṯ nahī ā­ė ḏẖarig jīvė ḏẖarig jīvās. ||3||

Those who have not sought the Sanctuary of the True Guru and the Sangat, the Holy Congregation; cursed are their lives, and cursed are their hopes of life. ||3||

Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 10, Line 7

ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਤਿਨ ਧੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲਿਖਾਸਿ ॥

जिन हरि जन सतिगुर संगति पाई तिन धुरि मसतकि लिखिआ लिखासि ॥

Jin har jan saṯgur sangaṯ pā­ī ṯin ḏẖur masṯak likẖi­ā likẖās.

Those humble servants of the Lord who have attained the Company of the True Guru, have such pre-ordained destiny inscribed on their foreheads.

Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

[Matheen]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

I'm not sure in what context you're asking the question, or what you understand the terms Guru and Satguru to mean, but the following shabad should help.

This Shabad is by Guru Raam Daas Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 308

mÚ 4 ]

ma 4 ||

Fourth Mehla:

ijn kau Awip dyie vifAweI jgqu BI Awpy Awix iqn kau pYrI pwey ]

jin ko aap dhaee vaddiaaee jagath bhee aapae aan thin ko pairee paaeae ||

The Lord Himself bestows glorious greatness; He Himself causes the world to come and fall at their feet.

frIAY qW jy ikCu Awp dU kIcY sBu krqw AwpxI klw vDwey ]

ddareeai thaa(n) jae kishh aap dhoo keechai sabh karathaa aapanee kalaa vadhhaaeae ||

We should only be afraid, if we try to do things by ourselves; the Creator is increasing His Power in every way.

dyKhu BweI eyhu AKwVw hir pRIqm scy kw ijin AwpxY joir siB Awix invwey ]

dhaekhahu bhaaee eaehu akhaarraa har preetham sachae kaa jin aapanai jor sabh aan nivaaeae ||

Behold, O Siblings of Destiny: this is the Arena of the Beloved True Lord; His power brings everyone to bow in humility.

AwpixAw Bgqw kI rK kry hir suAwmI inMdkw dustw ky muh kwly krwey ]

aapaniaa bhagathaa kee rakh karae har suaamee ni(n)dhakaa dhusattaa kae muh kaalae karaaeae ||

The Lord, our Lord and Master, preserves and protects His devotees; He blackens the faces of the slanderers and evil-doers.

siqgur kI vifAweI inq cVY svweI hir kIriq Bgiq inq Awip krwey ]

sathigur kee vaddiaaee nith charrai savaaee har keerath bhagath nith aap karaaeae ||

The glorious greatness of the True Guru increases day by day; the Lord inspires His devotees to continually sing the Kirtan of His Praises.

Anidnu nwmu jphu gurisKhu hir krqw siqguru GrI vswey ]

anadhin naam japahu gurasikhahu har karathaa sathigur gharee vasaaeae ||

O GurSikhs, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, night and day; through the True Guru, the Creator Lord will come to dwell within the home of your inner being.

siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ]

sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanahu gurasikhahu har karathaa aap muhahu kadtaaeae ||

O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.

gurisKw ky muh aujly kry hir ipAwrw gur kw jYkwru sMswir sBqu krwey ]

gurasikhaa kae muh oujalae karae har piaaraa gur kaa jaikaar sa(n)saar sabhath karaaeae ||

The Beloved Lord makes the faces of His GurSikhs radiant; He makes the whole world applaud and acclaim the Guru.

jnu nwnku hir kw dwsu hY hir dwsn kI hir pYj rKwey ]2]

jan naanak har kaa dhaas hai har dhaasan kee har paij rakhaaeae ||2||

Servant Nanak is the slave of the Lord; the Lord Himself preserves the honor of His slave. ||2||

[golestan]

Be name Khodavand

It's an interesting question. The practice of replacing an absent living teacher with a book is very common among Shi'a Sufi orders of futuwwah and among the Ismailis. The Ismailis for example have a pîr who is a book called Pandyat e Javanmardi (advices on chivalry). As for the futuwwah orders the absent pîr is replaced by a copy of the Quran seated on the pîr's seat. These practices predate the emergence of Sikhism and it is quite clear where the idea of having the granth as spiritual master in absense of a living teacher comes from. The institution of the guru granth comes from there.

When the last master of the 10 Guru line disappeared the granth (or granths) filled in the place of the living teacher that is necessary for the initiation ritual called pahul (also an Ismaili practice).

The quote you have given is interesting because it places the question of spiritual hierarchy, namely who was the Satiguru of Baba Nanak Shah (ra). Most Sikhs will reply by using a pretty vague reply such as "Waheguroo". It is vague because it doesn't define which aspect of Divinity. If Baba Nanak Shah (ra) was initiated by the Divine itself during his personal heavenly journey, this implies that the Divine initiated him in his manifest or saguna aspect.

Interesting question though.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[shaheediyan]

*Rehatnama Bhai Nand Lal

(Prashan-uttar Attributed to Nand Lal)

Nand Lal speaks:

Doha

'You say that we should behold your presence, O Master. Tell me where we are to find you.' (5)

the Guru speaks:

Doha

'Listen attentively, Nand (Lal). I am manifested in Three ways : the formless or invisible (nirgun), the material or visible (sargun), and the divine Word (gur-shabad). This I shall explain to you. (6)

Chaupai

'The first of these transcends all that is material . It is the neti neti of the Vedas, the spirit which dwells in every heart as light permeates the water held in a vessel.' (7)

'The second is the sacred scripture. This you must accept as part of me , treating its letters as the hairs of my body , This truly is so,' 8

'Sikhs who wish to see the Guru will do so when they come to the Granth. He who is wise will bathe at dawn and then will walk thrice around (the sacred Granth). (9)

Dohara

Come with reverence and sit in my presence. Humbly bow and hear the words of the Guru Granth.

Chaupai

Hear the Word with devout affection for the Guru. Hear the Guru's Word of wisdom and read it that others may also hear.

The person who wishes to converse with me should read the granth and reflect on what it says. (10)

The person who wishes to hear my words should devoutly hear and reflect on the Granth. Acknowledge the Granth as my visible presence , rejecting the notion that it is other than me. (11)

The third form is my Sikh, that Sikh who day and night is immersed in the words of sacred scripture (gurabani). The Sikh who loves and trusts the Word of the Guru is an ever-present manifestation of the Guru, (12)

Such a Sikh is the one who hears the Guru's words of wisdom and reads them so that others may hear. Attentively he reads both Japuji and Jap, visiting places sanctified by the Gurus (guradavaran) and strictly avoiding adulterous liaisons. (13)

The Gursikh who is faithful in service will find himself cleansed from all sense of self-dependence. He who is scrupulous in performing these obligations is the Sikh in whom I am made manifest. (14)

Dohara

Worthy is the Sikh who serves with devotion, expressing his obedience to me in the generous offerings, which he makes. (15)

Such is the service which I receive from a Gursikh. Hear me , Nand (Lal).

Giving himself he finds the deliverance which carries him to Paradise (baikunthe) (16)

Nand Lal speaks :

You have told me of three forms, Master: the invisible, the visble, and the Guru's Word . The invisible form we cannot see, and the visble is the obedient Sikh. (17)

Chaupai

How can we comprehend the infinity of your invisible form? The universe is your form, you whom we call Master , and your presence mystically pervades every heart . (How then can we perceive you ?) 18

The Guru Speaks :

You are a devout Sikh , Nand Lal . Hear this divine message which I impart to you. See the Guru as visible presence in his Sikhs and first you must serve me by diligently serving them (19)

Next you must serve me by singing the divine Word , accepting it as truly a sign . He who accepts the scriture as the (Guru's) Word shall come to an understanding of (his) infinite being . (20)

And so I conclude this homily , Brother. He who reads or hears it and pays careful heed to it will find himself the object of much admiration, his spirit mystically blended in Mine .

This message of comfort and joy was delivered on the ninth day of the waxing moon in the month of Maghar, S. 1752 (4 December 1695 CE ) . Let the Guru's praises be eveywhere sung declares Nand Lal . (22)

[unbreakable]

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[golestan]

Be name Khodavand

The foundation for this practice is found in the hadiths of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) about Imam 'Ali (as):

The Quran is with 'Ali and 'Ali is with the Quran

or

The Truth is with 'Ali and 'Ali is with the Truth

(word for word the same as guru hai bani bani hai guru)

Also on the event of Ghadîr the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said:

I leave you with the Quran and with my Ahlul Bayt, my Ahlul Bayt, my Ahlul Bayt (the sons of Fatimah and Ali).

During the battle of Siffin the army of Muawiah (la) put copies of the Quran on their spears so as to prevent Imam Ali (as) to attack them. Imam Ali (as) told his army not to worry for he was the living Quran.

In Shi'a theology the Imam is the speaking Quran whilst the Book is the silent Quran.Based on these principles the chivalry rituals permit the replacement of the living teacher by the Quran or a book of instructions created by him in the case of the Ismaili Imam. The fact that these practices predate Sikhism and can only be found in Shi'ism indicate that the Sikhs derived the idea of guru granth from Shi'ism.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[shaheediyan]

How about the highley ritualistic and royal treatment of the Torah?

Is that not comparable to the reverence of a "living" teacher/divinty?

[unbreakable]

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[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Unbreakable, I have already given you the hadiths which are in Shi'ism of equal importance as the Quran. As for the hadiths they are found in most Shi'a collections such as al Kafi. Contrarily to what you say the quotes I have given clearly establish the principle of the speaking and silent Quran and that one stands for the other. You can easily find all of these in www.answering-ansar.org

Shaheediyan wrote:

How about the highley ritualistic and royal treatment of the Torah?

Is that not comparable to the reverence of a "living" teacher/divinty?

Interesting observation. Orthodox Judaism does consider the Torah to be the word of God and its liturgy celebrates it as a bride but it does not give it the same status as the Book in Islam because the place of the shekinah, or God's presence is the Temple of Jerusalem. The prophets in Judaism are not infallible or sinless. They sin and make mistakes and therefore never be considered to be theophanies unlike in Shi'ism. That is why there is no equivalent to the Shi'a doctrine of the silent and speaking Quran because in Shi'ism the Quran and the Imam are both equally pure and sinless as well as manifestations of God's shekinah or presence. Judaism doesn't have the doctrinal framework for the idea you have mentioned. Even so Judaism was practically non existent in India except for a few small communities in Kerala. The possibility of an influence on Sikhism is practically impossible.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[unbreakable]

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[Xylitol]

This comes down to different methods of examining history. You look at changes that have occurred throughout history as support for your claims. I look at Gurbani where the Bani makes it clear that 1. the Guru expresses God's word as it comes to him, and 2. the Guru and God are one and the same. Therefore, from all this we see that the Guru's actions are divinely guided. There is no question that there was no influence from Shia'ism, instead it was a simple matter of Hukam of God.

Perhaps Shia were also divinely guided to regard the Qu'ran as their Guru. But you can see where I'm going with this, the similarities among various religions are not always due to historical precedents and influence (although sometimes they are), but due to direct guidance from Waheguru.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

The Quran does not give instructions on this. This is why we refer to the second authority which are the hadiths of Ahl ul Bayt (as).

I might be wrong but it seems to me that you haven't read the Quran. In Islam all practices have to be legitimate with principles laid down in the Quran and the hadith. The fact of replacing the leaving guide by the Quran is justified in the hadiths I have referred to you.

As for Xylitol's claims. When two people have similar features they are either related or it's a pure impossible accident of nature. Panjab has always had a heavy Shi'a presence especially in Lahore. To claim that identical ideas and practices are found in Shi'ism and Sikhism by sheer accident or some deus ex machina intervention when there is a plausible historical explanation is denying the obvious, especially when that obvious is already referenced in contemporary Shi'a sources. This isn't a question of similarity it's a question derivation. You may of course deny it but the likelihood of this being taken seriously is questionable.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[unbreakable]

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[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Indeed golestan doesn't agree because the likelihood of the same rituals, doctrines and institutions to be found in two traditions that have existed in the same geographic space to be a mere accident is simply impossible. When Shi'a insititutions like langar, dasvand and pahul, the idea of a living master replaced by a holy book are found in Sikhism, it's not called an accident: it's called "inheriting or borrowing from another religion".

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[shaheediyan]

I was talking about the influence of Judaism on Shia'ism (which is a foregone conclusion in any case if one looks at the influence of one school on the other through non Shia eyes).

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Shi'ism has no problem that our Prophet and Imams (as) have inherited the prophethood of Moses (as). In fact our Imams (as) knew many of the secrets of Jewish mysticism such as the hidden name of God that only the Jewish high priest was supposed to know. The problem with your parallel with the Torah and the role of the Quran in chivalry rituals is that the paradigms, context and doctrines are too far apart for there to be a relation.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[Matheen]

Here we go...... :roll:

[unbreakable]

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[unbreakable]

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[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Unbreakable wrote:

What leads you to believe that some "inheriting or borrowing" was done?

(please don't just type, please provide actual material..etc.)

Why do you feel, believe this was done?

1. I have already given the reasons but I shall repeat them yet again. The fact that the Sikh tradition has numerous elements that only existed in Shi'ism and predated Sikhism.

a. Concept of metemphotosis: one light manifest in different divine guides. An exclusively Shi'a concept.

b. Langar: Persian word used to designate communal free kitchens where food is served to all irrespective of origin, sex and creed. This institution existed in Iran long before Sikhism ever appeared. Same word, sale institution.

c. Dasvand: existed in the Ismaili community already before Sikhism was born and is called dasvand or dasond. Same institution same word. 10% of the earnings are given to the Satguru/Imam.

d. Pahul: Ismaili initiation ritual by which the Satguru or his representative pîr dip their toe into water that is drunk by initiate. Same word same institution.

d. Shahadat: martyrdom: Shi'a concept par excellence.

e. Initiation by drinking water stirred by a sword: Shi'a chivalry ritual.

Given the fact that all this concepts are from the Shi'a tradition and that they were to be found in India and Panjab already before Sikhism ever started it is most likely if not even certain that these were borrowed by Sikhs from the Shi'a tradition and given the fact that Baba Nanak Shah (ra) is mentioned in Shi'a sources as being Shi'a dervish it is quite obvious what the relationship is.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[unbreakable]

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[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Thank you for your reply.

Were these concepts borrowed by the Sikhs or the Gurus?

Yet again, please read my question, give it some thought and then answer.

All you posted here are similarities. The same exist with Hinduism aswell?

The concept of communal kitchen, giving to charity, etc..can also bee seen in the Snatan Dharm aswell.

My previous questions, again, please read them.

What leads you to believe that some "inheriting or borrowing" was done?

Why do you feel, believe this was done?

Thanks again.

1. Yes they were borrowed by the Sikh Gurus

2. I didn't post similarities. I posted a certain number of elements that only exist in the Shi'a tradition. These aren't just concepts I have mentionned but also names. None of these concepts and names exist in the Sanatan tradition.

3. I have already stated the reason as to why these are borrowings:

a. pre-existed Sikhism

b. present in same geographical area

c. institution AND name identical

4. These were borrowed because Baba Nanak Shah (ra) was part of that very Shi'a tradition.

[Matheen]

Are you sure that Ismailis use the term 'Pahul'? I asked my friend, an Ismaili, but he only knows of 'Chhanta' (Pashidan in Persian) in their tariqah.

Many Sanatan 'sects' have something similar to Charan Pahul, and they all predate Islam.

Giving 10 per cent of earnings (Dasvand, tithe etc) is also common in other religions and was not exclusive to Islam. The same name is a matter of language, not religion.

Can a kaffir enter a mosque, let alone eat the langar? It may well have been common in Iran (taking your word), but it sure wasn't in caste ridden Punjab at that time. Again, the word used is a matter of language.

In Khande Di Pahul, the most important aspect is Gurbani. I doubt the Shia recited 5 Bani. If you don't mind, can you please give the sources that describe the Shia ritual? I've never actually seen any.

Guru Sahib said they were not Muslim, I'll take their word over yours.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Matheen wrote:

Are you sure that Ismailis use the term 'Pahul'? I asked my friend, an Ismaili, but he only knows of 'Chhanta' (Pashidan in Persian) in their tariqah.

Many Sanatan 'sects' have something similar to Charan Pahul, and they all predate Islam.

Giving 10 per cent of earnings (Dasvand, tithe etc) is also common in other religions and was not exclusive to Islam. The same name is a matter of language, not religion.

Can a kaffir enter a mosque, let alone eat the langar? It may well have been common in Iran (taking your word), but it sure wasn't in caste ridden Punjab at that time. Again, the word used is a matter of language.

In Khande Di Pahul, the most important aspect is Gurbani. I doubt the Shia recited 5 Bani. If you don't mind, can you please give the sources that describe the Shia ritual? I've never actually seen any.

Guru Sahib said they were not Muslim, I'll take their word over yours.

1. Yes they use the term pahul. See Moir & Shackle 1992

2. The charan pahul did exist among one sect only namely the Vallabhis and was used by Ismailis too. There needs to be more research done as to who inspired who. Sure is both predate Sikhism.

3. What is unique is not the fact of giving 10% but calling it dasvand is. Only Sikhs and Ismailis do that.

4. There is no prohibition on non-Muslim to enter mosques except for the inner sanctum of certain shrines and the holy cities of Medina and Mekka. And yes the langa khaneh is open to all. Again same institution same word.

5. I have given the sources of the Shi'a initation ritual many times:

- Futuwwah nameh ye Sultani of Hossain Kashifi

- Ayin e Javanmardi, Henry Corbin

What I find interesting is that you claim that it can't be the same ritual because Shi'a do't recite bani (of course they don't they're Muslims)

Let me describe to you in clearer words what the relationship is between your khande da amrit and the Shi'a initiation ritual.

Khande da amrit is to the futuwwah ritual what the ram rahimi sach sauda amrit is to your khande da amrit. It might not be exactly the same but it is very clearly an imitation because it has the same structure.

In clear:

[unbreakable]

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