reap what you sow

[laalsingh]

Here are some points I am fully convinced of.

1. In the universe, every action must have a reaction. What we do, we must have to face the consequences.

2. Everything is pre-destined. With His hukam, we cry, we laugh, we do bad things, we do good deeds, we enjoy, we suffer. With His hukam, anybody can be born with some bad qualities and with His hukam, he can behave saintly.

3. Should we fear for our future? I don't think so. But still whatever we do, must get it back. Do we control our actions? I don't think so.

4. Gurbani has mentioned reincarnation so many times. Reincarnation seem to answer all the questions about 'what we sow we reap'.

Now question is how does this happen? I am just curious.

Is it just possible that no soul exists. When our bodies are burnt or buried in earth, it is back to ashes. Maybe same matter will start a new life somehow. But only way to Lord is only when we are in human form as only humans are able to reach final stage of enlightenment.

Just thoughts!

[Maha Kharag Singh]

predestination has no stance in sikhi imho, if everything was predestined then what kind of God embraces some and damnes another?

Without free will we are unable to exit the cycle of rebirth, without free will we are unable to have the choice to either go with or against the chor. Things are made easier with the Grace of the Guru, but we have to first come to the Guru s door first to get his grace and mercy

[laalsingh]

So you say Lord left us to decide which path to chose?

Just think about it for a minute. In your whole life, did you ever make any independent decision?

Every decision we make is determined by factors already in place like genetics, upbringing, surroundings, recent happenings etc. Every action including our decisions are result of previous actions or factors. There is no free will, only His will.

If one decide to follow sikhism, it must be influenced by company, his way of thinking and some other factors. Similarly company we keep is also result of sequence of events set in motion long before we are born. Our way of thinking too can never be totally free. Our DNA, past experiences, our current mood and many other factors determine the decision we reach at. How you say predestiny has no stance in sikhi?

ਪੰਨਾ 13, ਸਤਰ 9

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥

By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. ||1||

ਪੰਨਾ 27, ਸਤਰ 8

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥

They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||

ਪੰਨਾ 27, ਸਤਰ 10

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੪॥

Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||

ਪੰਨਾ 43, ਸਤਰ 10

ਜੇ ਹੋਵੀ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

If you are so pre-destined, then act according to the Guru's Teachings. ||1||Pause||

ਪੰਨਾ 44, ਸਤਰ 8

ਜਿਸ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਗਹੇ ॥੨॥

Those who have such pre-ordained destiny hold tight to the Feet of the True Guru. ||2||

We are only upto panna 44. So how you say predestination has no stance in sikhi. Sikhi is wholly about predestination. Nobody is damned or preferred in Lord's eyes. Me or nobody has any idea how He works.

How can we define sin or good deed?

You could be born in one of hannibal tribes in South America in 18th century and eating humans alongwith your tribemates. You could be born in muslim family and think drinking alcohol is big sin but killing infidels is not. Some people would not mind flying planes into buildings and would consider it an act worthy of so-called heaven.

How you define pain and enjoyment?

If somebody is born blind, does he realize pain of not having eyesight? A journey in economy class for a billionaire would be more painful than ride on a scooter for slum dweller.

[laalsingh]

Guru Nanak said it well in last line of first pauri of Japji.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1|

Keyword here is 'Hukum'.

If we have found Guru like Guru Nanak, it is still with Lord's hukum. We never had any choice or will of our own.

More in detail later.

[T kaur]

Laal Singh, Gurbani is beautiful, it is full of wisdom. As you read and meditate, more and more meanings become apparent. It is also apparent that there is a paradox at work at times. In some places Guru ji says naam is recited by those who are blessed, at others Guru ji is asking for the naam himself or Vaheguru ji's glance of grace, but at others Guru ji says that as a man sows he reaps. The bhagat's also say things like "oh my mind, realise your true self, you are the jot saroop", and also instruct the person to jap naam. Sukhmani Sahib gives instructions for those wishing to alleviate various sorrows and they tend to be to either to destroy the ego, stay in the society of the the Saadhs, or do constant naam japna.

People do have choices and I understand where you are coming from Laal Singh, but Gurbani cannot be summed up by saying we have no choice, hukum also means the eternal laws of Vaheguru, or Vaheguru ji himself, for he is at one the law and the universe, according to his laws nature is at work, the planets revolve, and the human body regenerates, according to his laws certain actions equal certain reactions.

However, he has also told us that we can overcome our past and past misdeeds are forgiven or washed away with naam, that the mind which is full of dirt such as ignorance, greed, ego, envy, etc can be washed with naam.

After all that, what I was trying to say Laal Singh is, I do believe we have a choice even within Vaheguru ji's hukum, however I will read what you have to say and think some more.

I am aware that I really do not know much and am always looking to learn more.

Thanks.

[laalsingh]

T Kaur ji,

As you said, according to His law nature is at work. Think again, these laws of nature are at work for planets, moons, living beings, particles of dust and even for smallest particles in the universe. Even cells in our brain follow laws of nature.

Just think about universe at any given time. Now take into consideration absolute laws of nature. So you think next moment in universe after taking into consideration absolute laws of nature has possibility of more than one outcome? I don't think so. There is only one possible outcome in next moment.

Things in present can't be changed. Laws of nature can't be changed. So how can we change next moment.

Yes, we can have illusion of free will. But not outside His hukum. We found perfect Guru, just because Lord planned it. Gurus told us past misdeeds can be overcome with naam. But it will happen if Lord has planned for it.

[laalsingh]

Just surrender to Waheguru's will. Understand we never had any chance of free will. We are actors in this drama of life, not players in this game of life. Players have choice, but actors in a drama not. Remember Waheguru every breathing moment. Ignorance, greed, ego, envy, etc will disappear.

***These are notes to self too. If Lord wishes I can do it too.***

A beautiful shabad from Guru Nanak from panna 475.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

Pauree:

ਵਡੇ ਕੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

The description of the greatness of the Great Lord cannot be described.

ਸੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੀਮੁ ਦੇ ਜੀਆ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸੰਬਾਹਿ ॥

He is the Creator, all-powerful and benevolent; He gives sustenance to all beings.

ਸਾਈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਧੁਰਿ ਛੋਡੀ ਤਿੰਨੈ ਪਾਇ ॥

The mortal does that work, which has been pre-destined from the very beginning.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੀ ਬਾਹਰੀ ਹੋਰ ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ ॥

O Nanak, except for the One Lord, there is no other place at all.

ਸੋ ਕਰੇ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥੨੪॥੧॥ ਸੁਧੁ

He does whatever He wills. ||24||1|| Sudh||

[shaheediyan]

You need to be careful Laal Singh - karm, hukum and razaa certainly do play a fundemental part in the Sikh marg, but we should not confuse, merge or misunderstand them all, it certainly is not an easy subject - as many terms used are taken from other traditionas i.e. Vedanta and Islam, we need to think carefully and do vichaar on the shabd to understand.

At Vaheguru's level, everything certainly is pre-destined, he and his way, is beyond our meagre comprehension.

But he certainly has given us free will in this "live" drama. We may be actors through vaheguru's eyes, but our challenges, choices and decisions are certainly real. The interplay is amazing, as we all affect each other and influence decisions on each other, karm certainly play a part on individual cirmcumstances, but so does the opportunity to change those karm. This is evidenced by the seriousness of Gurbani in trying to give us a life line and telling us not waste this existence, whilst showing us how an existence can and is wasted by the majority - this information creates understanding and ultimately choice to change our lives (not destiny) which is a manifestation of free will.

At the highest and most subtle level, we are all under his hukum as is our future. At the lowest and gross level we are individuals who have been free will to learn, understand, decide and act. The knowledge to win this game has been given to us, it's for us to see past the wallpaper and see the underlying message. The theological arguement here is not really of importance, the only important factor is realising that we are blessed to even be having this discussion, and realising that the true aim is to simply listen and act on Guru's instructions - opinions or understanding of destiny at human or Godly level is not the be all and end all.

[laalsingh]

Shaheediyan, I read this only yesterday trying to find Gurubani's view on pre-destiny. I am willing to discuss more about this shabad and more refrences in Gurubani on free will.

I understand most of abrahamic religions advocates free will. They have to. If they agree that free will does not exist, it will negate existence of hell and heaven and their blackmailing techniques won't work.

We will take a look at events happening here. I read your response to my posts here. Now I am writing a reply. Question is:

Do I have free will in what I write here?

I think I only have illusion of free will.

My response to your post only would be what my limited knowledge, my emotions (ego, love, curiosity etc) , my genetics structure of brain and some other minor factors will allow it. And only one response is possible with no other option.

I came across one view put forward by proponents free will.

"Suppose two men before a chessboard,--the one a novice, the other an expert player of the game. The expert intends to beat. But he cannot foresee exactly what any one actual move of his adversary may be. He knows, however, all the possible moves of the latter; and he knows in advance how to meet each of them by a move of his own which leads in the direction of victory. And the victory infallibly arrives, after no matter how devious a course, in the one predestined form of check-mate to the novice's king."

They are comparing Lord to expert player and humans are novices.

But this guy must be talking about a lesser God. My lord knows everything about His creations. Would'nt creator of a machine know, how machine will behave in every condition? Would'nt a perfect programmer know how his program will respond in every situation? This master chess player could not be compared to our Creator.

Lord know everything. He knows about our responses. He knows about our limitations. Every occurence is going as He planned. No event is first in nature. Every event is response of another event or events.

Another poster put a question earlier,"What kind of God embraces some and damnes another? "

Lord has it planned for everybody. What we see is never whole truth. Our knowledge is limited. Lord could never be unfair. Remember, He is on top of pyramid here. He is the one who created these words and feelings like 'unfair'.

A shabad from Third Master on panna 1417.

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

Emotional attachment to Maya is a treacherous ocean of pain and poison, which cannot be crossed.

ਮੇਰਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਪਚਿ ਮੁਏ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਤ ਵਿਹਾਇ ॥

Screaming, "Mine, mine!", they rot and die; they pass their lives in egotism.

ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਉਰਵਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਅਧ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਪਟਾਇ ॥

The self-willed manmukhs are in limbo, neither on this side, nor the other; they are stuck in the middle.

ਜੋ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

They act as they are pre-destined; they cannot do anything else.

ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥

Following the Guru's Teachings, the jewel of spiritual wisdom abides in the mind, and then God is easily seen in all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬੋਹਿਥੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਚੜੈ ਤੇ ਭਉਜਲਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਇ ॥੩੪॥

O Nanak, the very fortunate ones embark on the Boat of the True Guru; they are carried across the terrifying world-ocean. ||34||

I would like to discuss other shabads from Gurubani about extent of Lord's control over our actions.

Regards,

[amardeep]

I think there is a difference between God knowing what men will do before the event takes place, and God himself making the person do it.

I think everyone agrees to the fact that God knows everything and every event that will take place, but to say that there is no free will is a different subject, because if there is no free will, then it means that God is the one who makes us commit errors, sins, murder etc

[laalsingh]

amardeep, you think errors, sins and murder take place against God's will. Definitions of errors, sin and murder vary across religions, tribes, communities. Lord's law of nature is simple action and reaction. Actions we do, engrossed in worldly pleasures and temptations, we must face reaction. If Lord want it, we will do it. We can't blame it on so-called Lord's nemesis Satan. Lord has no equal. As Guru Ramdas says,

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦਸਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈ ਮਨਿ ਹਰੀ ॥

O True Guru, tell me of my Lord God, that I may meditate on the Naam within my mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਵਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੀ ਸਭਿ ਦੁਖ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥੨॥

O Nanak, the Lord's Name is sacred and pure; chanting it, all my pain has been taken away. ||2||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

Pauree:

ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥

You Yourself are the Formless Lord, the Immaculate Lord, our Sovereign King.

ਜਿਨੀ ਤੂ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਭੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥

Those who meditate on You, O True Lord with one-pointed mind, are rid of all their pain.

ਤੇਰਾ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਕੋ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਲਵੈ ਲਾਇ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥

You have no equal, next to whom I might sit and speak of You.

ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਤੂਹੈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਾ ਤੂਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥

You are the only Giver as great as Yourself. You are Immaculate; O True Lord, you are pleasing to my mind.

ਸਚੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਹਿਬਾ ਸਚੇ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

O my True Lord and Master, Your Name is the Truest of the True. ||2||

As we read in Bara-maha (panna 136).

ਹਰਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦਿਸਈ ਕੋਈ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਲਾਇ ॥

There is no other like the Lord-there is no equal to Him.

Only with His grace and Guru's teachings, we can escape cycle of good/bad actions and reactions and reach Him. I will repost shabad from last post again.

ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਉਰਵਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਅਧ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਪਟਾਇ ॥

ਜੋ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬੋਹਿਥੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਚੜੈ ਤੇ ਭਉਜਲਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਇ ॥੩੪॥

[amardeep]

So if a man comits adultary, steals, does not care about religion and abuses others, its not done by the free will of this man, but rather because God is making him do it?

[laalsingh]

So you think this man is doing it without Lord wanting it to happen? If yes, then this man is more capable than your Lord?

Guru Nanak Dev on panna 229.

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ॥

He Himself is All-pervading; He Himself misleads the people.

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਬੂਝੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੯॥੨॥੧੮॥

By Guru's Grace, one comes to understand, that God is contained in all.

[amardeep]

hmm. this is very confusing... if man does not have a free will, then why will people go dharamrai after death? whats the purpose of the law of karma.. im very confused

[laalsingh]

Khalsa ji,

Please don't get confused. With father like him for us kids, why you worry?

Another shabad from fifth master.

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Maajh, Fifth Mehl:

ਭਏ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥

The Lord of the Universe, the Support of the earth, has become Merciful;

ਮੇਘੁ ਵਰਸੈ ਸਭਨੀ ਥਾਈ ॥

the rain is falling everywhere.

ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਸਦਾ ਕਿਰਪਾਲਾ ਠਾਢਿ ਪਾਈ ਕਰਤਾਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

He is Merciful to the meek, always Kind and Gentle; the Creator has brought cooling relief. ||1||

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰੇ ॥

He cherishes all His beings and creatures,

ਜਿਉ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਮਾਤਾ ਸੰਮਾਰੇ ॥

as the mother cares for her children.

ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਦੇਤ ਸਗਲ ਆਹਾਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

The Destroyer of pain, the Ocean of Peace, the Lord and Master gives sustenance to all. ||2||

ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨਾ ॥

The Merciful Lord is totally pervading and permeating the water and the land.

ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਕੁਰਬਾਨਾ ॥

I am forever devoted, a sacrifice to Him.

ਰੈਣਿ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਦਾ ਧਿਆਈ ਜਿ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

Night and day, I always meditate on Him; in an instant, He saves all. ||3||

ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਏ ਸਗਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪੇ ॥

God Himself protects all;

ਉਤਰਿ ਗਏ ਸਭ ਸੋਗ ਸੰਤਾਪੇ ॥

He drives out all sorrow and suffering.

ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਰੇ ਜੀਉ ॥

Chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the mind and body are rejuvenated. O Nanak, God has bestowed His Glance of Grace.

[Mithr]

This is seem a little confusing. On one side we have free will and we are responsible for our actions. But at the same time everything is also in the Bhaanah of Akal Purkh. Nothing is outside his Bhaanah or Hukam. I guess this is why Guru Gobind Singh Jee calls the physical reality as Bachitra Naatak i.e. Strange Play. This is a riddle only a Brahmgiani can answer. Which brings to mind that this in itself is also a good question to ask the Harkowalwalay Mahpursh

[laalsingh]

Khalsa ji,

let us continue what Fifth master Guru Arjun Dev says on Panna number 1081 about absolute control of Lord father over us. I made some sentences in bold. I think, confusion should lessen somewhat or altogether. Keyword we should focus on should be 'surrender' or 'acceptance' of His will rather than our illusion of free will.

ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੫

Maaroo, Solhas, Fifth Mehl:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਕੀਤਾ ॥

You are my Lord and Master; You have made me Your servant.

ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਤਾ ॥

My soul and body are all gifts from You.

ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਸਭੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਸਾੜਾ ॥੧॥

You are the Creator, the Cause of causes; nothing belongs to me. ||1||

ਤੁਮਹਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਤਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ ॥

When You sent me, I came into the world.

ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ ॥

Whatever is pleasing to Your Will, I do.

ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਤਾ ਭੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ॥੨॥

Without You, nothing is done, so I am not anxious at all. ||2||

ਊਹਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥

In the world hereafter, the Hukam of Your Command is heard.

ਈਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਣੀਐ ॥

In this world, I chant Your Praises, Lord.

ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥

You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3||

ਤੂ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਥਾਰੇ ॥

You are our father; we are all Your children.

ਜਿਉ ਖੇਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਖੇਲਣਹਾਰੇ ॥

We play as You cause us to play.

ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥

The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||

ਇਕਿ ਬੈਸਾਇ ਰਖੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਅੰਤਰਿ ॥

Some remain seated within their homes.

ਇਕਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ॥

Some wander across the country and through foreign lands.

ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਘਾਸੁ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜਾ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕੂੜਾ ॥੫॥

Some are grass-cutters, and some are kings. Who among these can be called false? ||5||

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਨਰਕਾ ॥

Who is liberated, and who will land in hell?

ਕਵਨੁ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਭਗਤਾ ॥

Who is worldly, and who is a devotee?

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਹੋਛਾ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਜੜਾ ॥੬॥

Who is wise, and who is shallow? Who is aware, and who is ignorant? ||6||

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ ॥

By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ ॥

By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee.

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਛਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਧੜਾ ॥੭॥

By His Hukam, one is shallow, and by His Hukam, one is wise. There is no other side except His. ||7||

ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਅਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਰਾ ॥

You made the ocean vast and huge.

ਇਕਿ ਖੜੇ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥

You made some into foolish self-willed manmukhs, and dragged them into hell.

ਇਕਨਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਬੇੜਾ ॥੮॥

Some are carried across, in the ship of Truth of the True Guru. ||8||

ਕਉਤਕੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ॥

You issue Your Command for this amazing thing, death.

ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਓਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

You create all beings and creatures, and absorb them back into Yourself.

ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਸਭਿ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਆਖਾੜਾ ॥੯॥

You gaze in delight upon the one arena of the world, and enjoy all the pleasures. ||9||

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ॥

Great is the Lord and Master, and Great is His Name.

ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਵਡੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਾਈ ॥

He is the Great Giver; Great is His place.

ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਤੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਾੜਾ ॥੧੦॥

He is inaccessible and unfathomable, infinite and unweighable. He cannot be measured. ||10||

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

No one else knows His value.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥

Only You Yourself, O Immaculate Lord, are equal to Yourself.

ਆਪਿ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਤਵੰਤਾ ਅਤਿ ਗਾੜਾ ॥੧੧॥

You Yourself are the spiritual teacher, You Yourself are the One who meditates. You Yourself are the great and immense Being of Truth. ||11||

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

For so many days, You remained invisible.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

For so many days, You were absorbed in silent absorption.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਰਗਟੜਾ ॥੧੨॥

For so many days, there was only pitch darkness, and then the Creator revealed Himself. ||12||

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤੀ ਸਬਲੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

You Yourself are called the God of Supreme Power.

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥

You Yourself are the hero, exerting Your regal power.

ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਵਰਤਾਈਅਨੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਠਾਰੁ ਗੜਾ ॥੧੩॥

You Yourself spread peace within; You are cool and icy calm. ||13||

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਜੇ ॥

One whom You bless and make Gurmukh -

ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥

the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਾ ॥੧੪॥

He is peaceful, and he is the master of all; the Messenger of Death does not even approach him. ||14||

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥

His value cannot be described on paper.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥

Says Nanak, the Lord of the world is infinite.

ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਥਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੈ ਨੇਬੇੜਾ ॥੧੫॥

In the beginning, in the middle and in the end, God exists. Judgement is in His Hands alone. ||15||

ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਕੋਈ ॥

No one is equal to Him.

ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਬੁਤੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

No one can stand up against Him by any means.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਚੋਜ ਖੜਾ ॥

Nanak's God is Himself all-in-all. He creates and stages and watches His wondrous plays. ||

[laalsingh]

khalsa ji, is anybody reading my posts here what I am trying to discuss?

Any feedback please!

[amardeep]

I see your point but that brings up a lot of moral issues. Why will people be judged and punished for deeds they themselves did not commit, and why is Gurbani talking against manmukhs and evil-doers if they have no control themselves to change it?

[laalsingh]

amardeep, you once gave me refrence from quran. Here what quran says about Lord's total control

[6.39] And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.

[6.25] And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients.

[19.83] Do you not see that We have sent the Shaitans against the unbelievers, inciting them by incitement?

[37.96] And Allah has created you and what you make.

I came across these surah, when i read quran. There are many more. There may be different contexts, but isn't stated clearly Lord is in full control. So why we need threat of Jannat and Jahannum then?

We will discuss answers later.

[amardeep]

lol.. im not a muslim so using quranic verses will not help on anything lol

[laalsingh]

amardeep, we got all the help of our beloved Guru, Guru Granth Sahib. We will continue sometime later next week.

Guru Rakha

[Xylitol]

Gurbani also states in reference to atheism etc. that the lord himself separates and the lord himself unites. yet these people are punished for their wrongdoing

I don't know how to express my own ideas on this clearly, b/c my own ideas are not clear. But I feel that we do have free will, but at the same time, everything is in God's control.

Does this refer to the fact that we cannot take action without God, that if he wants he can pull the jyot out of our sareer and deprive us of the ability to take action?

Or does it mean it more litereally, that it truly is him (as the soul) behind even the thoughts to take a particular course of action.

something to consider, perhaps it may be both, that he is in control of our thoughts, words, and deeds, not just by powering them (making them possible), but also by doing them himself, even when they originate from haumai. There is the atma (soul), parmatma (waheguru, of which the soul is a part), and haumai (ego which has gained control of the body).

I think this kind of paradox can only be understood by a very enlightened person, but I'm interested in reading further vichaar on this.

[Guest]

i think we all lack better choice of words to explain the concept - reap what you sow and free will..we all consciously know the answer inside but just cannot put into words...some people are given gift from god to do that..i think we have god gifted soul on this forum as well...pheena veer ji have proven from time to time that he can explain deep subjects into very simple words..i think he can solve your riddle.

But the main riddle of riddles is - where is pheena veer ji at the first place? lol...

[laalsingh]

amardeep, we got all the help of our beloved Guru, Guru Granth Sahib. We will continue sometime later this week.

Guru Rakha