shaheediyan Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I was watching an interesting documentary that debunked the previous theories about Neanderthals being dim-witted. They were proven to have more highly evolved and effective blades than H-Sapiens for instance. It was also shown that early forms of religion are as much as 35,000 old with Venuseque figurines (representing the feminine divine) benig found across Eurpose dating back to this era). Neanderthals were alive a lot longer than that... Then there is the question of the various stages (evolutionery) of hominoid - which can/should be classed as 'insaan'? Or when did we quit being pashu (or at least have the understanding to stop being pashu)... At which point did we evolve into beings who were able to achieve mukti or realise God (truth)... I personally don't take the yug time eras as historic fact - I think there is more to it than that - but feel free to bring that into to if you wish. I would also be interested in parallel opinions from the Semetic angle (as well as Indian any other). Ta. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weedol Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 They may be hominids but to be 'insaan' they would have to be 'bani Adam', and there is no evidence that they were. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I suppose the best way to judge when man became worthy of Mukti is when he was able to conquer his base instincts and develop a moral code. When he determined that things such a theft, adultery and murder were wrong and that might is not always right and that the weak needed to be defended. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 This raises the important concept of evolution. Are we to follow darwinian thinking, that humans 'evolved' from 'less physically well adapted to the environment' humans to 'more physically well adapted to the environment humans'. Shaheediyan in the opening post mentions neanderthals may have have had better tools before homo sapiens making them cleverer. Is this a darwinian assumption? that an individual is more 'evolved' if he can manipulate the environment, technologically, better than another individual. Isn't this idea something that has cursed our society, the idea that manipulating matter in a technological way makes an individual more advanced, the idea of progress. If we assume we become insaan when we began to use tools then to evolve we must make better and more advanced tools to reach a higher level of evolution. Mere manipulation of the external environment is not enough to make an human. The last 14000 years of history are then absolutely void of any evolution in its true meaning. Although we have made great advances in manipulating the external environment we have not evolved to our true status of humans. True evolution is spiritual man is a spiritual being, to realise his full evolutionary potential he must develop spiritually. There is then no point in history where homo sapiens began and our bestial nature was left behind, all that may have happened is that nature created an organism with greater evolutionary capacity than other animals for the purpose of cosmic harmony. This evolutionary capacity is ours to fulfil, the potential is gifted to us but we must do what is asked of us. If this potential is not used nature must do something to us in order to maintain harmony, this something is pain and suffering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Good points Mekhane'ch Jannat. But is the intelligence that helped us to manipulate our environment to a higher level than any other species also not the same intelligence that helps us to understand divine wisdom... I think that these mundane things do make us 'insaan', they just don't make us 'bhagvaan'... Gurbani even tells us that this 'form' is a 'kapRaa' that is attained with time... the spiritual evolution i.e. the journey of the 'khands' is not a biological expectation as are the secular achievements and mastery of the material environment for those born in human form... Sorry to drag the point, I totally understand the bigger and important issue you are conveying, just taking an interest in less urgent issues at the mo..! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 yes I agree that the intelligence is the same. And i also agree that doing those things do not make us Bhagwaan, but the sense you use bhagwaan I use insaan because a true insaan is bhagwaan. As they say to worship God you first have to become god. Shaheediyan you have brought up another thing which i was thinking about - the biological nature of evolution. I would have to disagree and say the journey through the Khands is absolutely biological. The lowest khand is the muladhara chakra and the sachkhand is the seventh chakra. Spiritual evolution is a biological phenomena, whereby the nervous system becomes purified in order to receive amrit. Amrit is a substance produced by the body when it is fully (spiritually) evolved. This goes back to the cartesian split which lurks like a demon in much of our thought today - the mind/body split. the mind is a subtle form of the body. So when the mind becomes more subtle i.e. manas-buddhi-ahamkar-atma the physical body receives influences from purer regions of space if we equate the subtler levels of mind with higher celestial realms. Therefore to recieve these influences the body has to be in a good state of physical fitness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm not eloquent like you gentlemen, but I'd like to fink I 'ave pyaaar! I thought the state of amrit- above death- was a description of the state of our mind when it is above all influences and fully cognitive that it is brahm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Thats interesting, yes there certainly may be a mechanical parallel to our spiritual progress, which then perfectly leads back to my original point - that this biological blueprint - one which enables 'divine status', is evolutionary - thus seperating us from pashu (biologically) - but I agree with what I think you said - which is without dharmic effort - this biological advantage/opportunity is wasted - and our unrealised 'bhagvaan' potential leaves us as nothing more than pashu. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 the greek equivalent of amrit is ambrosia which etymologically is a+mbrotos a is a negative and mbrotos is related to mortal or mortality. When we think of ambrosia we associate with it a kind of drink or essence and for the greeks it was the food of the gods. Amrit is Ambrosia and it can only be drunk when as drawof says when ' the state of our mind when it is above all influences and fully cognitive that it is brahm.' Everything spiritual is reflected in a biological mechanism. And as said above this biological blueprint is what seperates us from animals. I think we can now bring in ego into this which is the fragment of free will which the creator endowes us with to activate this blueprint. But instead of evolving and fulfilling our potential through harmonious activity, this ego becomes haumai? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Sorry Veer Ji, could you explain how/why Ego and Haumai are different, and the basis of your opinion. Dhanvaad Ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Maybe Ego is too much of a loaded word to use. Let me explain what I mean by this. The fragment of free will which we possess can be joined to the mind and then becomes the slave of the five senses - manmukh - or it can be joined to the Guru and become his slave - Gurmukh - This is the choice we all possess; fight to become light or stagnate in darkness. A Gurmukh fulfills his evolutionary potential and a manmukh squanders it. We are given this choice this ego which is what seperates us from beasts, but until we fulfill this potential we are not insaan we are unfinished lopsided creatures. There are then 2 stages to evolution one where nature creates a creature that has the ability to evolve by itself and the second where the creature must fulfill this potential. This is where religion shamanism yoga and everything else comes in they are merely tools to fulfill this evolutionary potential. And these tools much like the technological tools have enslaved us instead of empowering and freeing us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Spiritually, are we evolving or devolving? Starting from SatYug, we are in KalYug now. Again spritually, is KalYug ahead of SatYug? Is humanity heading toward being a pure(Khalsa)? ਖਾਲਸਾ ਰਾਜ ਕਰੇਗਾ? Are Jesus, Budha, Guru Nanak glimpse of future to come (as Maurice Bucke says or ST-NG-Transfigurations(humans evolve into energy ultimately))? Thats interesting, yes there certainly may be a mechanical parallel to our spiritual progress, which then perfectly leads back to my original point - that this biological blueprint - one which enables 'divine status', is evolutionary - thus seperating us from pashu (biologically) - but I agree with what I think you said - which is without dharmic effort - this biological advantage/opportunity is wasted - and our unrealised 'bhagvaan' potential leaves us as nothing more than pashu. Well said. But dharmic efforts are limited (and maybe caused) by biological blueprints. Avatars in different Yugs emphasized on different methods (Havans, Idols, Naam etc). Nobody has a clue what Lord has planned. Future is always what we mortals can't even predict. There could be just one genetic switch to reach our goal and some scientists working for money may well find this holy grail which any organized religion failed to do efficiently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 "There could be just one genetic switch to reach our goal and some scientists working for money may well find this holy grail which any organized religion failed to do efficiently." Doesn't that theory conflict with what Gurbani tells us Veer Ji? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 "There could be just one genetic switch to reach our goal and some scientists working for money may well find this holy grail which any organized religion failed to do efficiently." Doesn't that theory conflict with what Gurbani tells us Veer Ji? Gurmukho, which part conflict with Gurbani? Genetic research, scientists working for money or failure of organized religion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2009 "There could be just one genetic switch to reach our goal and some scientists working for money may well find" I take you it you are talking about moksha - and in doing so, implying business motivated people can give Gurprasad through a scientific breakthrough? Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 I thought this kathaa is a great overlap on this subject: http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04...%20Katha-01.mp3 http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04...%20Katha-02.mp3 Let me know your thoughts after listening to this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randip singh Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I was watching an interesting documentary that debunked the previous theories about Neanderthals being dim-witted. They were proven to have more highly evolved and effective blades than H-Sapiens for instance. It was also shown that early forms of religion are as much as 35,000 old with Venuseque figurines (representing the feminine divine) benig found across Eurpose dating back to this era). Neanderthals were alive a lot longer than that... Then there is the question of the various stages (evolutionery) of hominoid - which can/should be classed as 'insaan'? Or when did we quit being pashu (or at least have the understanding to stop being pashu)... At which point did we evolve into beings who were able to achieve mukti or realise God (truth)... I personally don't take the yug time eras as historic fact - I think there is more to it than that - but feel free to bring that into to if you wish. I would also be interested in parallel opinions from the Semetic angle (as well as Indian any other). Ta. Great question. There was a great series years ago on BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/h...uman_evolution/ It talked about how we became man. For me the human test is consciousness. When did we become concious of our existence. For example, you put a mirror in front of an animal and it will run away or peck it, or attack it. Only humans (and possibly apes) will look. Why because humans are actually concious of their own existence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Mirror test doesn't differentiate man from animal, great apes have the ability to recognise themselves in mirrors also, as I believe do Dolphins and Elephants. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randip singh Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Mirror test doesn't differentiate man from animal, great apes have the ability to recognise themselves in mirrors also, as I believe do Dolphins and Elephants. Maybe they have human qualities? http://www.livescience.com/animals/061030_...ant_mirror.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) "There could be just one genetic switch to reach our goal and some scientists working for money may well find" I take you it you are talking about moksha - and in doing so, implying business motivated people can give Gurprasad through a scientific breakthrough? Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick. Journey of 'Sikh' starts with firm belief in 'Gurprasad', and as a Sikh I believe in 'Gurprasad'. Ego is hardest to defeat on this journey and without firm belief in 'Gurparsad' every effort done and every knowledge gained will keep on adding to our haumai. I don't know if mukti can happen without Gurprasad. Lord is Almighty and He can make anything happen. He can create new rules as He wishes. Another view is that for a Sikh or Sishya, there must be a 'Guru' to show the way. Guru can be taken as Nirankar, Shabad, living Gurus or Panj Pyare. Even if no other Guru in this sequence is present on the way to union with Him, Nirankar is always there. Edited August 16, 2009 by laalsingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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