The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Who came first. Please count you view by voting. Those who don't know, they can use www.google.com or history books as sources for answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 You need to be more specific. Ramanand was the title of the leader of Bairagis and this gaddi was passed down from one sucessor to another all of whom used the name of Ramanand. The Bhagat Ramanand you get in bani was the last leader of the bairagis as he imparted his spiritual wisdom with those who by birthrite were less fortunate such as Bhagat Kabir and Bhagat Ravidas. Due to the social prejudices of the Brahmins this gaddi ended there. but started many many generations before and that includes before Prophet Mohammed. Bhai Jodh Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh in their enlgish teeka put a footnote of this part of the bachittar natak. If you want the full history of every ramanand i suggest you research the Sanskrit works of Pandit Amar Singh which is available in Kanshi. A lot of research into this point has gone into this 19th century book What i would suggest for this poll is you make the question more specific as in which Ramanand you are referring to, the one who commenced the order of the bairagis who is mentioned in bachittar natak of the divine Bhagat Ramanand Ji who has a shabad in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and whose shish Bhagat Kabir Ji and Bhagat Ravidas Ji are ever remembered as Bhagats as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 You need to be more specific. Ramanand was the title of the leader of Bairagis and this gaddi was passed down from one sucessor to another all of whom used the name of Ramanand. The Bhagat Ramanand you get in bani was the last leader of the bairagis as he imparted his spiritual wisdom with those who by birthrite were less fortunate such as Bhagat Kabir and Bhagat Ravidas. Due to the social prejudices of the Brahmins this gaddi ended there. but started many many generations before and that includes before Prophet Mohammed. Bhai Jodh Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh in their enlgish teeka put a footnote of this part of the bachittar natak. If you want the full history of every ramanand i suggest you research the Sanskrit works of Pandit Amar Singh which is available in Kanshi. A lot of research into this point has gone into this 19th century book What i would suggest for this poll is you make the question more specific as in which Ramanand you are referring to, the one who commenced the order of the bairagis who is mentioned in bachittar natak of the divine Bhagat Ramanand Ji who has a shabad in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and whose shish Bhagat Kabir Ji and Bhagat Ravidas Ji are ever remembered as Bhagats as well. I don't need history of all Ramanands. However, you got the topic to the point but I made i clear on which Ramanand I was talking about. Bairagee or some other no name one. I clearly put Ramanand (Bairagee) in the poll. Bairagee Panth is known to be started by Ramanand who later gave up pooja or seetaa raam and gained uttam padvee to realize the Truth of AKaal Purakh. His shabad is written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You cleverly tried to escape but Gorakh is also mentioned along with Ramanand. Ramanand is said to come after Gorakh Naath. Gorakh Naath came in 11th century but Gorakh Naath is mentioned before Mohammed also. Any way you slice it, about Bachitter Natak . You can try to defend bachitar natak composition all you want but truth will remain truth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 No thicko you missed my point, Ramanand the Bairagee came way before the prophet, the order of the Bairagees continues, Bhagat Ramanand was also Bairagee Ramanad who Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks about. You lack of knowledge or indescretion does not allow you to understand that this was infact an order and the order was not sarted by the Bhagat in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji have put all in chronological order as rightly done. As i said you were not specific. I have answered your question, that should be enough for this thread. you got the answer you needed now focus on your silly poll! If you are still confused please read the Sanskrit book i have cited as referance. If you cant read it i am sure one of your friends can translate it for you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malwe Da Sher Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 LOL Fauj you got owned ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Khalsa Fudge, Is that your tractor? Could you add some more options on your poll to make it more interesting? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 No thicko you missed my point, Ramanand the Bairagee came way before the prophet, the order of the Bairagees continues, Bhagat Ramanand was also Bairagee Ramanad who Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks about. You lack of knowledge or indescretion does not allow you to understand that this was infact an order and the order was not sarted by the Bhagat in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji have put all in chronological order as rightly done. As i said you were not specific. I have answered your question, that should be enough for this thread. you got the answer you needed now focus on your silly poll! If you are still confused please read the Sanskrit book i have cited as referance. If you cant read it i am sure one of your friends can translate it for you You are the real thickster. Not only are you thick, you are also ignorant just like the dehdaris you follow. I said if we accept your view that the Ramanand in Dasam Granth came before MOhammed, then it is still wrong because Dasam Granth says GOrakh Naath came before Ramanand. You didn't read the post and just wanted to call me a thicko because Gurbani says you become like the one you serve. You serve dehdhari pakhandis so you have become thick like them. Below is the order in Dasam Granth Gorakh Naath (Came in 11th century, check wikipedia) Ramanand (Started the bairaagee panth but as per you, that was a different one that came before Mohammed) Mohammed (MOhammed came in 7th century) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorakshanath So either way, Bachitter Natak is questionable because time doesn't move from 11th century to before 7th to then 7th. You can't go 11th century, then 5th century, then 7th century. LOL Fauj you got owned ! If you agree with him, now you just got owned too. Hahaha! Come on guys, like I said before, don't debate or promote something you have no clue about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Khalsa Fudge, Is that your tractor? Could you add some more options on your poll to make it more interesting? Just for your satisfaction, more choices have been added. Enjoy! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malwe Da Sher Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I like Khalsa Fudge, its about the best thing been posted on this forum in weeks. Poster of the week award goes to Shaheediayan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 i will say this one last time, please see Pandit Amar Singh Ji's pustak in Sanskrit for clarification on the Bachittar Natak, signing out Mahant Noranious! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 i will say this one last time, please see Pandit Amar Singh Ji's pustak in Sanskrit for clarification on the Bachittar Natak, signing out Mahant Noranious! If you have it, link the scanned pages. Also, why is he writing in sanskrit, if you can't scan. Write a summary on what that person wrote in his book. Also, I feel that debating here is too time consuming. I haven't been able to get much done over the last few days other than post here. Like I said at the start, holding a live debate in public would be the best solution to solve this issue. Internet posts are just internet posts. Also, before trying to promote Dasam Granth, you guys need to decide about Poets SHyam, Raam and Kaal. It is very confusing when one says they are pen names of Guru Ji and other person says they are poets and someone else says they are rishi munis. Please make a separate thread and decide amongst yourselves on who these poet characters are. Then it would be much easier to hold debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akaal_Das Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Singh Sabha Canada with there video on Dasam Granth has proved that most of the Dasam Granth is copy paste from Shiv Mahapuran and Hindu granths. Earlier i used to beleieve in Dasam Granth too but after seeing video i am 100% sure its a Mahakaal followers granth . Thanks a lot Singh Sabha Canada . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Akaal Das, Ask your singh sabha canada, where they think jaap sahib, akaal ustat, svaie, chaupaie came from? who can wrote those compositions besides badsah darvesh sri guroo gobind singh ji maharaj? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 http://www.thesikhaffairs.org/video.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 WOW more new members joining this forum, i wonder what rock these Afgana wannabes have come out from Right Khalsa Fauj, your big issue is that you are not happy about the sequence in which people appear in the dasam granth. Ok i know you have complete sharda in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so i pose this question to you from there and it is the same context in which you pose your shabad. I do not support the AKJ view that Raagmala is not gurbani, i aree it is bani and understand it through the deep meaning done by taksal to explain the issues with it. Also Sant Tehal SIngh Ji's analysis of it is worth reading In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji you have 31 raags starting with Sri Raag to Jaijaiwantee. Bhai Gurdas Ji states that Sri Raag is the greatest of raag however in the Raagmala its states the first raag is Bhairou. Is this not a similar ambiguity! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 "If you have it, link the scanned pages. Also, why is he writing in sanskrit, if you can't scan." - I have not got time to scan about 10 - 150 pages to try an make you understand something out of your comprehension. It is written in sanskrit as that is what the scholar decided to write it in! What sort of a question is that. That is like asking Bhagat Kabir Ji why he wrote his Bijak Granth in Hindi or Bhagat Namdev Ji why they wrote in Marathri! "Write a summary on what that person wrote in his book." A Sikh scholar, and not a baba or sant incase that is what you were getting at! Im sorry to tell you though he wans't a missionary student so it would not interest you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 WOW more new members joining this forum, i wonder what rock these Afgana wannabes have come out from Right Khalsa Fauj, your big issue is that you are not happy about the sequence in which people appear in the dasam granth. Ok i know you have complete sharda in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so i pose this question to you from there and it is the same context in which you pose your shabad. I do not support the AKJ view that Raagmala is not gurbani, i aree it is bani and understand it through the deep meaning done by taksal to explain the issues with it. Also Sant Tehal SIngh Ji's analysis of it is worth reading In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji you have 31 raags starting with Sri Raag to Jaijaiwantee. Bhai Gurdas Ji states that Sri Raag is the greatest of raag however in the Raagmala its states the first raag is Bhairou. Is this not a similar ambiguity! My opinion: Anything falling outside the boundaries of Guru Granth Sahib ji isn't Gurbani. Doesn't matter if it states who it is printed by or how ink is to be prepared or even quote such as Jit Dar Lakh Mohammadaa, Lakhaa Bissan Mahesh. "If you have it, link the scanned pages. Also, why is he writing in sanskrit, if you can't scan." - I have not got time to scan about 10 - 150 pages to try an make you understand something out of your comprehension. It is written in sanskrit as that is what the scholar decided to write it in! What sort of a question is that. That is like asking Bhagat Kabir Ji why he wrote his Bijak Granth in Hindi or Bhagat Namdev Ji why they wrote in Marathri! "Write a summary on what that person wrote in his book." A Sikh scholar, and not a baba or sant incase that is what you were getting at! Im sorry to tell you though he wans't a missionary student so it would not interest you. Why don't you clear up who those guys were and when they were born and how can you claim this? Why are you telling me to read a book I don't have access to? You have been spending all this time dodging the question, why not prove your point. Type up what it says in the book in short. All I need to know is who was Gorakh Naath, Ramanand and Mohammed and when were they born? What is so hard? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 First of all you dodged my question on the Raagmala and the differing sequence of the raags in Guru Granths Sahib. If Raagmal is bani and accepted even thought the sequence and raags are different then why not the same with historical figures and the sequence they appear in the Bachittar NAtak" "My opinion: Anything falling outside the boundaries of Guru Granth Sahib ji isn't Gurbani. Doesn't matter if it states who it is printed by or how ink is to be prepared or even quote such as Jit Dar Lakh Mohammadaa, Lakhaa Bissan Mahesh." That does not answer the question asked about the raagmala, Raagmal is in gurbani so please state your opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 First of all you dodged my question on the Raagmala and the differing sequence of the raags in Guru Granths Sahib. If Raagmal is bani and accepted even thought the sequence and raags are different then why not the same with historical figures and the sequence they appear in the Bachittar NAtak" "My opinion: Anything falling outside the boundaries of Guru Granth Sahib ji isn't Gurbani. Doesn't matter if it states who it is printed by or how ink is to be prepared or even quote such as Jit Dar Lakh Mohammadaa, Lakhaa Bissan Mahesh." That does not answer the question asked about the raagmala, Raagmal is in gurbani so please state your opinion. Is Raagmaal inside the boundy of 1 Oankar to Mudawni, Teraa Keetaa Jaatoo Naahe? Is not then, you got the answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Also, like I said before, live debate would be the best. It is very time consuming to read threads and reply and it has taken 5 days as we have been going since Sunday i think. We haven't reached any conclusion and we won't reach it either until there is talk with someone who has read and understand Dasam Granth fully and where which composition comes from. Like I said before, bring proper debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 The Khalsa Fauji, It seems like you are fatigued, need a break from all this discussion ? Understandable. Just let us know whenever you are ready. However, i just wanted to remind, it was your friend- Guru Da Sikh who came on this forum start challenging core beliefs of gurmat sidhant- Sri Dasam Granth sahib, Bhai Gurdas Ji Varan and you came along with this joined the party after clarifying that you were not Guru Da Sikh to Mithar. All of this seems some what fishy, seemed like well planned orchestrated mission to come on the forum start engaging in guerrilla debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 So you do not accept Raagmala is bani, is that correct! as it is not in the boundary from Ik Ouankar - Salok M 5 - Tera Keeta Jato Nahi. Well if you do not accept the 1430 limbs of Guru Granth Sahib Ji as your guru i think talking about the Sri Dasam Granth or any other granth is a waste of time. If you do not believe in the Guru itself and do not have the sharda to do so what is the point of debating with you. You accept Guru Granth Sahib Ji in all of your posts as your Guru and now we find out that actually you do not believe the Raagmala to be a part of Gurbani. If maharaj was still in their Sargun forms as Gurus from Nanak to Gobind you would say to people 'That is my complete and true Guru, he is great and i believe in him totally, shame about his crooked nose though!' You are just here to pick a hole in something for the sake of it. How about you go back to your missionary friends who are writing the teekas and realise the spiritual works within the Sri Raagmala before you start on picking faults in anything else Now the rest of us really know we have wasted our time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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