Matheen Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 WJKK! WJKF! Quick question- which Raags are exclusive to Guru Sahib - i.e. not found anywhere else? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raagiwannabe Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Majh? Gauri Majh? Some of the other Gauri variant raags like Gauri Sorath? Bilaval Mangal? gond? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laadli Fauj Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 jaijaivantee was created by Guru Tegh Bahadur ji 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr1tpal Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 jaijaivantee was created by Guru Tegh Bahadur ji Afraid not. Shah Hussain was writing in Jaijaiwanti during 3rd paatshahs time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 "Afraid not. Shah Hussain was writing in Jaijaiwanti during 3rd paatshahs time." Pritpal Ji, kindly provide hard evidence for this supposition. I can only guess you are referencing modern texts and oral Gharana traditions. This same conjecture is made with regards to Khayal and Amir Khusro, without tangible evidence. Truth is that Indian/Shaastri historians have never credited anything to our Guru Sahiban, one can clearly see this when studying the subject. If you have something tangible, then please share and educate. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Jaijaivanti aside, Guru Amardas Ji, Guru Ramdas Ji and Guru Arjun Dev Ji, are said to be responsible for the creation of Mishrat Raags, of which Gurbani contains between 29 to 31 (depending on which school of thought one follows). The majority of these are found in the GauRi chapter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laadli Fauj Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 yeah i did some very brief research, more like just some shuffling through the web, and didn't come across any of shah hussains actually writings in jaijaivantee, but did see quite a few renditions of his work IN the raag. might just be my poor 'research' though i have heard manymany times that nauve patsaah composed raag jaijaivantee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr1tpal Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 "Afraid not. Shah Hussain was writing in Jaijaiwanti during 3rd paatshahs time." Pritpal Ji, kindly provide hard evidence for this supposition. I can only guess you are referencing modern texts and oral Gharana traditions. This same conjecture is made with regards to Khayal and Amir Khusro, without tangible evidence. Truth is that Indian/Shaastri historians have never credited anything to our Guru Sahiban, one can clearly see this when studying the subject. If you have something tangible, then please share and educate. Thanks. What is hard evidence? If you want me to provide hath-likht manuscripts by Baba Shah Hussein himself, then I'm afraid this is beyond me. There are a couple of well known compositions by him composed in Jaijaiwanti, most notably 'Mittran di mijmaani khaatar, dil da lahoo shaania' which has been sung by, amongst others, Ustad Nazir Butt. You can find a couple of the Jaijaiwanti compositions of Shah Hussein here: http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/shahg/ (have a look at the bottom of page 19) In fact, I'd recommend having a good look at the apnaorg website. A fantastic resource for anyone interested in the literary heritage of Punjab. As for Shaastri sangeet not crediting anything to the Guru-sahibaan, I half agree, but you'd be surprised what is out there!! Have a look for Pandit Jasrajs many recordings of 'Nanak ki Malhar'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laadli Fauj Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 lol, no one's asking you to come up with his original writings, that's obviously ridiculous thanks though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Pritpal Ji, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, as I already said, an oral tradition isn't worth the paper its writte on in the academic world, I was actually expecting you to source a 'document' dating back to the said era, nobody said it had to be hand written by Shah Hussein. The Raags could have been allocated later. It may be possibly with research to source older dated manuscripts, the must exist, so until that point.... But thanks for link, beautiful poetry I have heard Dhrupad recordings of Guru Nanak Dev Jis bani in old East Indian Shaastri traditions (found by others), amazing stuff - possibly Darbari reets, so I know there are a lot of treasures that exist in the Shaastri world. But fact remains, in the Academic world of Indian Classical, our Gurus have been totally ignored - even though we have gigantic (probably the biggest) repository of musical poetry ans styles - via the 3 Sikh Granths. BTW, are you my Taus playing veer from 'Up North'? Your name and love of Punjabi Poetry sort a gives it away, lol! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I have heard Dhrupad recordings of Guru Nanak Dev Jis bani in old East Indian Shaastri traditions (found by others), amazing stuff - possibly Darbari reets, so I know there are a lot of treasures that exist in the Shaastri world. Shaheediyan, do you have any websites you could point us to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pr1tpal Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Pritpal Ji, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, as I already said, an oral tradition isn't worth the paper its written on in the academic world, I was actually expecting you to source a 'document' dating back to the said era, nobody said it had to be hand written by Shah Hussein. The Raags could have been allocated later. It may be possibly with research to source older dated manuscripts, the must exist, so until that point.... Yes its me! I have a hunch who you may be...but I won't hazard a guess for fear of embarrasing myself. As for the 'hard evidence' that you require...it would be difficult since punjabi literature lacks the parampara that Gurbani has. I think the oldest dated manuscript of Shah Hussain for example, dates back to the late 1700's. Before then, these things were passed down seena-baseena. I agree that this causes a problem, but surely its enough to cause doubt? There are many many references to Shah Hussains kafian before this period though, hence the timing (during 3rd paatshahs reign) and nature (kafian) of his writings are more certain. Also, we know from the writings of Waris Shah and Khwaja Ghulam Farid that the Sufi saints were well versed in shastri sangeet, and the structure of many of the Kafis follows the Rahao-Pada system of Gurbani. Oral tradition cannot be ignored, if only because, we rely on it so much in Gurmat Sangeet! For example, there are at least 3 variations of Raag Majh, 3 of Tukhari, 2 of Suhi, 2 of Ramkali, 2 of Sri and so on. Depending on where you're from, or who you've learnt from you'll sing these things differently. Sometimes very differently. So how do we decide what the correct roop is? If not by oral tradition? For all we know, Gauri was supposed to be Purvi ang, Suhi in Bilawal ang and Sri in Kafi ang!! So the ambiguity exists across our discipline too. Is our oral tradition not worth the paper its written on either? What source document do we have regarding the history of the Taus, Jori or Saranda? I think the attitude we have of crediting everything to the Guru-sahiban until proven otherwise can be self defeating. Academically that is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 All fair points Veer Ji, I am not saying seena-baseena rvaaj is not important, of course it is, I was talking about an academic context specifically. Academically speaking - oldest documented source for Jaijaivanti is Sri Guru Granth Sahib (puratan biran), oldest documented sources for Saranda etc are JanamSakhis (pretty impressive date wise) and Taus, well you know that anyway, M-Ranjit Singh Era. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to 'give all credit to our Gurus' the truth is the truth, and as soon evidence presents itself, I will be the 1st to correct myself and promote it! You may be interested to know that the some of the Ismaili religious texts (the Ginans) dating back to our Gurus era and before, also follow the standardised Indian poetic formats of that time and many use Gurbani Raag sirleks! There are some historical texts dating back to Gurus era as far as I remember... Re which tradition to follow, yes well, its our own research that will help is, personally, I would do a cross comparison of the oldest existing traditions i.e. Bhai Avtar Singh, Namdhari Parampara (which generally agrees) and extant Rababi traditions like Bibi Jaswant Kaur etc. Will catch up with you on PM! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maha Singh Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Im not knowledgeable much on the development of Raag within the Panth, but were the Sikh Gurus not the first to introduce Partaal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Guru Ramdas Jis Bani is the 1st historical record of the musical term/instruction 'Partaal'. Together with their son, Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji, the 2 Guru Sahiban composed 49 (from memory) partaal shabds - which are in fact a clear indicator of the puratan Dhrupadi practice of Sikh Kirtan. This fact is not contested by anyone as far as I am aware. Partaal has today famously been hijacked and abus.. ahemm used, by our Hip Hop, vaikaar promoting US heroes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laadli Fauj Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 partaal in hiphop? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 "Shaheediyan, do you have any websites you could point us to?" Enjoy: http://gurmatsangeet.blogspot.com/2008/11/vajjan-taal-mridang-rababa.html You can download it here: http://www.welove-music.net/2008/08/lyrical-tradition-of-dhrupad-10_21.html Sorry for the late response Laadli Fauj, Try listening to some Missy Elliot videos (that sort of genre). You will notice in recent years - some of these hip hop stars starting using many Indian themes in their vids, one of them is dual tempo (partaal). Hope that helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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