amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 That reference is actually really interesting. Im writing a paper on Dara Shikoh's Majma Ul Bahraiin so i've been reading tons of books about him and the mughals these past week. I did'n know Guru Har Rai was involved in the battles against aurangzeb on the side of Dara 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Who is Sujan Rai? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 He was the son of a devout Sikh of Guru Hargobind Sahib. His father was martyred in one of the battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Thats interesting. What does his books say? i've never heard of him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) He was the son of a devout Sikh of Guru Hargobind Sahib. His father was martyred in one of the battles. Where did you get this information from? It doesn't mention this in the forward to the English translation in Persian sources. Nor does he seem to mention it in the text itself? Edited May 11, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) The books is written after 2 years of research and it is not on one subject only, it has information on the Gurus etc. If I had the book, I'd DalSingh: If you read the 11th vaar of Bhai Gurdas you will find the name of Sujan Rai Bhandari's father. I read an article by a scholar veer some time ago in which more details were given. EDIT: Heres the link. http://satguru.weebly.com/who-is-sujan-rai-bhandari.html DalSingh, if you don't know of the site, I say that there is a lot of information on it. Yes I know that the authors stretches the information too far, but still overall a good site. Edited May 11, 2011 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Thanks for the pointer Khoji, I'll have a look at that tonight hopefully. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 No thanks, any help for brothers (or sisters, which is very rare, if not non-existant) deeply into the Khoj perspective of Sikhi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 DalSingh, if you don't know of the site, I say that there is a lot of information on it. Yes I know that the authors stretches the information too far, but still overall a good site. I had a look. I have to say of all the stuff on that site, the piece on Sujan Rai is one of the more plausible (but still not solid). The brother/sister seems to have frequently expanded tenuous links in a most extreme and unrealistic way in many of his pieces. Regarding your original question, the impression I'm getting is: At least a part of Guru Hargobind's (surviving) force was passed on to Guru Har Rai on their material passing. This force would have shrunk grew as per Guru Har Rai's strategic plans. Presumably it shrank or was disbanded toward the latter stages of the 6 mohal's guruship. What would be really interesting would be to trace any links between the fighters in Guru Hargobind ji's conflicts and the group that we latter find around Dasmesh pita, especially in his younger days. If any veterans survived till that time and maintained strong links to Sikhi, that is where we would presumably find them? There is a Gurbilas on 6th padshah (the one Vedanti recently edited), I wonder if it tells us anything about his fighters in there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Would'n that be rather impossible? Guru Hargobind sahib took office in 1606 and lets say his youngest soldiers were 15 at the times of war (first war happend in 1629) then they would have been born in 1614... Guru Gobind Singhs first battle took place in 1688 which would mean they were 74 at the time.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Would'n that be rather impossible? Guru Hargobind sahib took office in 1606 and lets say his youngest soldiers were 15 at the times of war (first war happend in 1629) then they would have been born in 1614... Guru Gobind Singhs first battle took place in 1688 which would mean they were 74 at the time.. It's possible some of them were alive. Some people think Kavi Kankan worked for Guru Hargobind when younger and later witnessed the birth of the Khalsa, for example. Would dasmesh pita have known any of the people who fought alongside his grandfather I wonder? Edited May 11, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) He is a guy named Harpal Singh Kasoor and done a good job. He has found some nice evidence and even visited the places visited by Guru Nanak Sahib in Africa (Uganda). Thing is he does tend to exaggerate, but I think, seeing his seva since past 30 years I can overlook that. Kasoor clearly says: 'His grand father is Hira Nand and great grand father is Gangadhar( ref pp 79 of "Khalastut-- Twarikh", translated in Gurmukhi, by Punjabi University,Patiala).' So he is not making up any stories about Sujan Rai's father being a Sikh soldier during 6th Patshahs time. I don't think the army during 7th Gurus time shrunk alot, but stayed around 2200 mounted soldiers. There was even a skirmish of the Guru with the Mughals, and that wouldn't have happened without an army. It is possible that quite a few soldiers where there from 6th Gurus time. What would be really interesting would be to trace any links between the fighters in Guru Hargobind ji's conflicts and the group that we latter find around Dasmesh pita, especially in his younger days. If any veterans survived till that time and maintained strong links to Sikhi, that is where we would presumably find them? There is a Gurbilas on 6th padshah (the one Vedanti recently edited), I wonder if it tells us anything about his fighters in there? Sikhs used to go at war even when they were teenagars (Guru Tegh Bahadur at 14, Sahibzadas, ...), which implies that other Sikh teenagers must have fought too during the battles. IF some of them survived till the 10th Gurus time (lets take till the battle of Bhangani, meaning about 55 years after the Guru Hargobinds last battle), it is highly unlikely that they also participated in Guru Gobind Singhs battles. We will definately find clues in the old Granths. Gurbilas Patshahi 6 won't be a bad start or even the Gurbilas Patshahi 10 for that matter (there are two, but one of them contains quite some info on the battles of the Gurus and even has the Brahm Kavach supposedly uttered by Guru Hargobind Sahib in it). DalSingh, care to start some extensive research ? EDIT: Yes 10th Guru might have known them, but I don't think they were still working as a force during the tenth Gurus time (even the early years). Edited May 11, 2011 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 I'll be happy to join you in a project after the 25th May when im done with my exams.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 My exams will be ending by the end of June. We are going to research several issues then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Yes cool. what are you studying?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) He is a guy named Harpal Singh Kasoor and done a good job. He has found some nice evidence and even visited the places visited by Guru Nanak Sahib in Africa (Uganda). Thing is he does tend to exaggerate, but I think, seeing his seva since past 30 years I can overlook that. I'm sure he's a nice guy and well intentioned, but still, I can't take a lot of that research seriously. DalSingh, care to start some extensive research ? What did you have in mind? EDIT: Yes 10th Guru might have known them, but I don't think they were still working as a force during the tenth Gurus time (even the early years). I'd agree. I wonder what the average life span was in those days? I have imagined them as potential advisors (not combatants), but that is probably my imagination running riot now. I'm sure hearing tales of the 6th Gurus battles would have been a feature of Guru Gobind's childhood. Edited May 11, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Amardeep, sciences (my thing). What about yourself? BTW, have you got the Gurbilas Pt 6? http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/406-bhai-mathara-bhat-ji-shaheed-battle-print.html The Gurbilas Patshahi 6 sure has tons of info on warriors of that era. I'm sure he's a nice guy and well intentioned, but still, I can't take a lot of that research seriously. Agreed. He has done some fine research though. What did you have in mind? We having some Shaheedi Degh while reading Puratan literature with pens in our hands. I'd agree. I wonder what the average life span was in those days? I have imagined them as potential advisors (not combatants), but that is probably my imagination running riot now. I'm sure hearing tales of the 6th Gurus battles would have been a feature of Guru Gobind's childhood. Yes. + People were healthy due to their lifestyles (e.g. Baba Deep Singh). For sure that Guru Gobind Singh heard of grandfathers battles. Edited May 11, 2011 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 We having some Shaheedi Degh while reading Puratan literature with pens in our hands. Sounds good! I doubt we'd get much writing or reading done in that state though.... hee hee Yes. + People were healthy due to their lifestyles (e.g. Baba Deep Singh). For sure that Guru Gobind Singh heard of grandfathers battles. Yes, and remember Baba Buddha too. Akali Phoola Singh was 60 + when he was shaheed. I think good food and active life gave many people long lives in those days. Guru Amar Das was nearly 100! If Guru ji, never met any of the people that fought with his grandfather, he certainly would have heard tales from people who spoke to fighters first hand. Possibly their children. I think Chibber's work gives further details about the fighters under dasmesh sahib? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have come across a fair good amount of Sikhs from Malaysia and Singapore.. When I've seen them i've guessed they might be in their late 20s when their in fact 40 and above... I dont know if it has to do with the air or lifestyle they held or what but i've been amazed many times at how young they look compared to their real age... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have come across a fair good amount of Sikhs from Malaysia and Singapore.. When I've seen them i've guessed they might be in their late 20s when their in fact 40 and above... I dont know if it has to do with the air or lifestyle they held or what but i've been amazed many times at how young they look compared to their real age... They have an easy life over there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 U sure about that?? please provide hadith i dont belive u!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) U sure about that?? please provide hadith i dont belive u!! Believe it. They live large over there apparently. I worked with one. He went on and on about it... So I heard this hadith from flannah, who heard it from timka, who himself had heard it from buntu through jeeto..... Edited May 11, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Hadith bina gal ni bandi!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Hadith bina gal ni bandi!! Toon chup kar! Nee thaa Sarbhat da 'Islamaflood' ah ju ga! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Haha, jokes aside we should try that out. As in we take a few topics and research them with the use of Puratan Granths/accounts etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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