Guru Harkrishan Sahib And Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib

[SikhKhoj]

We all know the 6th, 7th and 10th Guru kept Fauj.

 

But what happened to the 2200 mounted soldiers of Guru Har Rai during 8th Gurus time?

 

The 9th Guru fought a few battles (where the Guru gained the title of 'Bahadur'), so it is really possible that Guru Tegh Bahadur kept an army too.

 

Can someone share any valuable info on the Fauj during 8th and 9th Gurus times?

Edited June 24, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[laalsingh]

Guru Teg Bahadur ji got his title for showing bravery in army of Guru Hargobind Sahib.

[SikhKhoj]

Hanji veerji, Guru Tegh Bahadur faught in the battles when they werent Guru. They fought as Sahibzada Tegh Mal (lateron Tegh Bahadur due to their bravery at the age of 14 in Kartarpur Sahib battle)

But what I am asking is if Guru Tegh Bahadur, WHEN BECOMING GURU or till 1675, keep an army like the 6th and 7th Guru or not?

And did Guru Harkrishan Sahib keep an army too?

Basically, did Gurus keep an army between 1661 and 1675? (8th & 9th Guru times)

What do historical sources say?

[amardeep]

Gurinder Singh Mann seems to believe that Guru Arjan started the practice of keeping a small army due to his interpreation of some of Guru Arjans shabads..

[dalsingh101]

Guru Tegh Bahadur faught in the battles when they werent Guru. They fought as Sahibzada Tegh Mal (lateron Tegh Bahadur due to their bravery at the age of 14 in Kartarpur Sahib battle)

Just a pedantic point: It was Tyaag Mal, not Tegh Mal.

Also, we should note how contemporary/near contemporary representations seem to portray nauvay padshah in a regal cum military light, whereas today, Sobha Singh's representation along lines of piety have come to dominate our imagination of the Guru.

Do the original regal style representations suggest that Guru ji retained some Sikh military capacity?

Edited May 6, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

Gurinder Singh Mann seems to believe that Guru Arjan started the practice of keeping a small army due to his interpreation of some of Guru Arjans shabads..

Could you state some of the Sabads and also what GS Mann said specifically. Thanks.

Just a pedantic point: It was Tyaag Mal, not Tegh Mal.

Also, we should note how contemporary/near contemporary representations seem to portray nauvay padshah in a regal cum military light, whereas today, Sobha Singh's representation along lines of piety have come to dominate our imagination of the Guru.

My mistake. It is indeed Tyag Mal.

Can you give reference to contemponary or near contemponary accounts of Guru Tegh Bahadur's life?

[amardeep]

He refers to Guru Arjans army in this shabad:

ਘਰੁ ਲਸਕਰੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ॥

घरु लसकरु सभु तेरा ॥

Gẖar laskar sabẖ ṯerā.

My home and all my possessions are Yours.

ਰਖਵਾਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥

रखवाले गुर गोपाला ॥

Rakẖvāle gur gopālā.

The Guru, the Lord of the world, is my Savior

- ang 622

And also refers to: "Dabistan Mazahib," Sikh History from Persian Sources, 68.

I dont have the book though. Maybe Dalsingh can look it up if he has it.

Edited May 6, 2011 by amardeep

[SikhKhoj]

If you don't mind, how does that Sabad indicate of Guru Arjan Sahib keeping an army?

Would be really nice if Dal Singh could look up this reference.

[Mr Sardar]

Is he wearing ear rings why do old pictures have that further can we wear ear rings?

[amardeep]

Lashkâr also means army. He interprets house as Harmander Sahib and the army protecting it

[SikhKhoj]

I see. Others than that, any historical proof?

And did 8th and 9th Guru keep armies or not? What do historical Granths say?

[dalsingh101]

Would be really nice if Dal Singh could look up this reference.

Maybe later, can't find the book right now.

Lashkâr also means army. He interprets house as Harmander Sahib and the army protecting it

I have to say (about that Mann guy), sure, some of his work is insightful, but the way he pulls out single tuks from Gurbani and puts so much on them is tenuous to the extreme.

[amardeep]

Dalsingh: I agree with you on that one. I find the argument to thin also but I mentioned it for the sake of presenting a scholars view on the establishment of an army prior to Guru Hargobind

[SikhKhoj]

Nobody knows wheter the 8th and 9t Gurus kept soldiers? I have read that the 9th Guru had a  strong army, something I doubt. But I think the 8th and 9th Gurus did keep some soldiers with them, just need a confirmation from some historical source.

Edited June 24, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

i doubt he had. Maharaj was imprisoned for months in Delhi so if he had an army why did'n they try to break him free? Given the rage that the Sikhs in Banda Singh Bahadurs army had against Chote Sahibzades executioners which resulted in several cities being sacked, one might wonder why Guru Tegh Bahadurs army (if he had one) did'n try to attack some mughal posts on punjab after his shaheedi.

[dalsingh101]

Nobody knows wheter the 8th and 9t Gurus kept soldiers? I have read that the 9th Guru had a 30,000 strong army, something I doubt. But I think the 8th and 9th Gurus did keep some soldiers with them, just need a confirmation from some historical source.

Let's look at it logically and see what we come out with?

We know a force existed and fought under Guru Hargobind ji. Tradition asserts that Guru Har Rai retained some cavalry to, although this period was one of diplomacy, not conflict. Remember, there were heavy losses to the small original Sikh force under Guru Hargobind anyway and large sections of it were made up of mercenaries. So the force would have shrunk significantly when they disbanded the mercenaries?

Gur Harkrisen didn't seem to command any conspicuous force, so maybe an implicit understanding arose around this time that sort of dissolved a formal standing force, with a smaller group of personal guards remaining? I think the remnants of these survived as the later gathering around dasmesh pita, during his childhood, out of range of Mogul jurisdiction in Bihar (not sure if Bihar was out of Moghul jurisdiction at that time, maybe someone can confirm?).

These remnants formed the core of dasmesh pitas's earlier (preKhalsa) force i.e. the ones he fought the hill rajah with.

The point is fluidity. Any force would have grown or shrunk as the situation required. Swelled with both Sikhs and mercenaries. Until the Khalsa was formed.

Edited May 6, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

Yea.

Guru Har Rai was guru from 1644 to 1661 - about 17 years. Guru Sahib always kept mounted 2200 soldiers.

So I don't think all of them suddenly were told to 'find another job' once Guru Harkrishan became Guru. So most probably atleast some of the original force + additional forces were kept. Maybe the few 'smaller groups of personal guards' as you put it, and not the hundreds of mounted soldiers ready for any skirmish with the Moghuls during 6th and 7th gurus time.

However Amardeep makes sense about 9th Guru having no soldiers - since they would have killed Shihan when Guru Tegh Bahadur sahib was fired upon in Amritsar Sahib + attacking Mughal posts in 1675 (after martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur).

Dal Singh, you didn't tell which contemponary sources portrat Guru Tegh Bahadurs military 'appearence'? (apart one painting).

Edited May 6, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[dalsingh101]

Guru Har Rai was guru from 1644 to 1661 - about 17 years. Guru Sahib always kept mounted 2200 soldiers.

So I don't think all of them suddenly were told to 'find another job' once Guru Harkrishan became Guru. So most probably atleast some of the original force + additional forces were kept. Maybe the few 'smaller groups of personal guards' as you put it, and not the hundreds of mounted soldiers ready for any skirmish with the Moghuls during 6th and 7th gurus time.

Mercenaries are usually quite shrewed and usually seeking better pay/conditions. I'm sure they would have come and gone quite fluidly from Sikh employment. Perhaps the numbers steadily decreased towards the latter part of the 6th Gurus physical life when things became more peaceful? No one is talking about a large scale dismissal, rather small groups coming and going, but mostly going towards the end.

Dal Singh, you didn't tell which contemponary sources mention Guru Tegh Bahadurs military side?

Because it's based on oral traditions. I don't know of any personally. The images from that time however seem indicative. He frequently has a falcon on his wrist which is something we attribute to dasvin patshah today. Plus it's well known he got his name Tegh Bahdur after showing martial prowess when younger in his fathers original conflicts.

Maybe the tradition Guru ji later had a long period of renunciation at Bakala until his discovery by Makkhan Shah is accurate though?

Edited May 6, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

You mean last part of 7th Gurus life? Then yeah, much possible.

I see. The 9th Guru only fought battle(s) in his teenage years, lateron all he did was bhagti (for more about 20 years). Guru ji probably did lots of Bhagti. Just see the Bairaag in the Saloks of 9th Patshah.

Edited May 6, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[dalsingh101]

Apparently there is some later (by 100 years!) blasphemous account by one Ghulam Husain (called Siyar-ul- Mutakharm), that claims Guru ji (9th) wondered around with a large following 'extorting' the populace.

But that is most likely just later Moghul excusary for what they did.

Edited May 7, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

I looked up Dabistan and found this statement regard 6th patshah:

He had 700 horses in his stable. 300 battle tested horsemen and sixty musketeers were always in his service.

Anyone know the source of the claim that Guru Har Rai had 2000+ soldiers?

[amardeep]

with a large following 'extorting' the populace.

what does that mean?

[SikhKhoj]

Meaning that they took money from people - like kidnappers 'extort' money from rich people.

Yes I have heard about Guru Hargobinds size of army.

2200 is what people say traditionally, no idea where that is written though. Suraj Prakash maybe?

I heard Suraj Prakash has a whole chapter dealing with the Sikhs training during 6th Gurus times, can anyone tell which one?

[dalsingh101]

I found this reference to 6th mohal, which was made a fair few decades after the event:

People intuitively realised that once [Aurengzab's] glorious camp moved in his direction, he [Dara Shukoh] would take flight without daring to enter battle. As a result they decided to separate from him. Thus Rajah Rajrup departed with the excuse that he needed to go to his native territory to gather troops and conciliate the local chiefs (zamindars) of the Punjab hills. From expediency he left his son as his agent at Lahore; but after some days, his son also departed one night. So too Guru Har Rai, the successor of Baba Nanak, who had come with a large force, left on the excuse of collecting more troops. Thus people separated themselves from Dara Shukoh.....

Sujan Rai Bhandari - 1696

I notice there are a few near contemporary references to 'large crowds' around the 9th mohal, but nothing that explicitly suggests armed soldiers.

Edited May 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

There are many works such as the Khulastul Twareekh of Sujan Rai that aren't known, which is sad. There are many Granths out there that get overshadowed due to the immense popularity of Suraj Prakash, Panth Prakash and a few other Granths.

Yes, Guru Tegh Bahadur might have got a few Sikhs as guards after attempts on the Guru (such as the shot fired on Guru Tegh Bahadur).

Does anyone know when Guru Gobind Singh started collecting forces? (such as the one who fought in Battle of Bhangani - 1688). Was it near the time they started building forts and stayed in Poanta etc (1684 onwards)?

Any historical accounts?