SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) * Edited May 24, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I have found some interesting info in the past few years.Guru Harkrishan and Guru Tegh Bahadur did have some forces but limited in number. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I have heard sakhis of guru tegh bahadur Ji maharaj going out for shikaar with his sikh soldiers.We have to look at it this way that sikhi from guru Nanak dev Ji maharajs time has been martial. Look at the bani of guru Ji and it challenges authority of the Mughals and Hindu Brahmins that nobody dared to do. Then we also know that guru Ji carried a tulwar, barsha and had a chakar on their head(these relics can be seen at takhat Patna sahib).So they dressed in nihang like attire. The second guru opened up wrestling akharas for health and fitness. The fifth guru became a martyr which shows warrior like qualities. I also heard some sakhis that the 5th guru also went to do shikaar with Sikhs. Then we know about the 6th, 7th, and 10th guru keeping armies and doing battles. So why wouldn't the 8th and 9th guru keep an army? A lot of the smarmy of the 6th guru was not mercenaries. It was Sikhs of the guru. For example in the battle of bhagani pir bhudu shah gave mercenaries to guru sahib but they joined with bhim chand. So who fought then? Not the udasi's cause all of them ran away except for Kirpal udasi. It was the Sikhs who fought. The Sikhs after the 6th guru were indeed martial. We also know that the 9th guru carried shastars. Most likely the 8th guru also carried shastars. Just my two cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Sikhkhoj: You talk about tenuous links in your recent threads - your friend here (http://satguru.weebly.com) is the absolute worst at this that I've ever encountered - however well intentioned he is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Dal: I know. He is not really a scholar, but from all the tenuous stuff I have found a few very valuable things amongst his research which have been corroborated by other sources. Singh123..: you are right. That is what I found in my research too. Guru Ji did shikaar and had armed soldiers. This is found in some contemponary sources (not the biased Islamic ones). What else should we expect from Guru TEGH BAHADUR Ji? Contemponary painting show Guru Ji with kalgi and falcon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Singh123...:"Guru Tegh Bahadur carried shaster"Do you have any particular sources? I have not found this yet but it could be well possible.And btw, there is a strong oral tradition that Guru Nanak Ji taught Shaster vidya to Baba Buddha who in turn taught Guru Hargobind Sahib. Are there any written sources for this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anandpuria Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Sikh Khoj"There is a strong traditio that Guru Nanak Ji taught Shaster Vidya to Baba Budha....."Baba Buddha ji did not have to be taught Shastar Vidya by Guru Nanak ji. Let us not start manufacturing history by relying on Unsubstantiated claims mostly by Nihags to justify their attempt to stretch their origins to Guru Nanak. Those who haven't grown up in a village cannot understand many things. Right upto middle of last century village youth used to play not just Kabaddi but Gatka and other athletic exercises. A village vetern of Gatka would see to it that capable and enthusiastic young men excelled in wielding all sorts of weapons such as Kirpan spear, Lathi and quoits or Chakkars. I was inspired by such an elderly vetern in the neighbouring village. On joining Khalsa College at Jallandhar I joined the Gatka team and we were university champions 1959 defeating Khalsa College Amritsar and others. The Gatka matches were not for show off in front of media as we see in Nagar Kirtans. These were real fights with several players being seriously injured. We learnt actual fights with kirpans and spears and single fighter taking on half a dozen opponents in a circular paintras.The point I wish to emphasise is that in Panjabi villages the village veterns were competent teachers. Thus Baba Buddha ji learnt so called Shaster Vidya (Nidder Singh coined term) in his village Kathunangal. It was part of growing up. Bidhi Chand Chhina too learnt in village. In the event of an external attack village youth picked up their swords and spears and confronted the invader. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Singh123...:"Guru Tegh Bahadur carried shaster"Do you have any particular sources? I have not found this yet but it could be well possible.And btw, there is a strong oral tradition that Guru Nanak Ji taught Shaster vidya to Baba Buddha who in turn taught Guru Hargobind Sahib. Are there any written sources for this?I have seen maharaj's tulwar when I was younger. If you go to places like bhai roopa or droli bhai they have many things from the gurus. I'm blessed to have had the opportunity to hold maharaj Sri guru Arjan dev Ji's wooden sandals, maharaj Sri guru har gobind sahib Ji's dhal, maharaj Sri guru har Rai Sahib Ji's bairaagan and few other things. I think the darshani Yatra that is gonna conclude in Anandpur sahib has a tulwar of Sri guru tegh bahadur maharaj I think.Baba Budha Ji taught sahib Sri guru hargobind sahib Ji shastar vidiya but who taught baba Budha Ji? It had to be sahib Sri guru Nanak dev Ji. Baba Budha Ji was with the guru since 9 years of age so he would have had to learn it before the age of 9. So in reality the idea that he learnt from the village might not be right. I have another question that is also might relate to this topic. The yudh akhara that sahib Sri guru angad dev Ji opened did it still keep on running when the third, fourth, fifth etc guru were around? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Very interesting questions & observations.I know of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's talwar. Where is Guru Tegh Bahadurs kept? It is quite possible that Guru Ji retained the kirpan that they used during earlier battles where they earned the name Tegh Bahadur.And I have only heard about Baba Buddha learning SV from Guru Nanak but have no sources for this.The Yudh Akhara was more about wrestling than training with weapons in my opinion, altough I have read bachans of Guru Angad contained within old Granths and they speak with alot of bir ras.I have read that some of the elder Sikhs with Guru Hargobind were instructed by Guru Arjan to train young Sahibzada Hargobind. And they had been Sikhs since 3/4th Gurus time. Maybe the akharas kept running?I am fascinated by this topic and it also negates people who claim that the mission of Guru Gobind Singh was different to that of earlier gurus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I got to add. My mum told me that in her grandpa's time, they would practice gatka and they stopped it because someone's arm got chopped off in a demonstration once. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 What has that got to do with the topic ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Dal Singh added what he said because of what anadpuria wrote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Very interesting questions & observations.I know of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's talwar. Where is Guru Tegh Bahadurs kept? It is quite possible that Guru Ji retained the kirpan that they used during earlier battles where they earned the name Tegh Bahadur.And I have only heard about Baba Buddha learning SV from Guru Nanak but have no sources for this.The Yudh Akhara was more about wrestling than training with weapons in my opinion, altough I have read bachans of Guru Angad contained within old Granths and they speak with alot of bir ras.I have read that some of the elder Sikhs with Guru Hargobind were instructed by Guru Arjan to train young Sahibzada Hargobind. And they had been Sikhs since 3/4th Gurus time. Maybe the akharas kept running?I am fascinated by this topic and it also negates people who claim that the mission of Guru Gobind Singh was different to that of earlier gurus. The two teachers of guru hargobind sahib maharaj were baba Budha Ji and bhai gurdas Ji.Sahib Sri guru tegh bahdur Ji di Sri sahib is at patiala and one is going to anadpur sahib. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Oh I completely missed out Anandpurias post.Shaster vidya simply means knowledge of weapons. The 'myth' that Baba Buddha taught Guru Hargobind also predated Niddar.Secondly you grew up in a 'Sikh' village or after Sikhi was revealed, don't think such sports were common amongst Hindus at those times, it existed but was rare.Bidhi Chand was a daku thus he must have had some kind of training even before joining the Sikh forces. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Bidhi Chand was a daku thus he must have had some kind of training even before joining the Sikh forces.Are you suggesting dakus have formal training..... megalol!!From some daku yoda!They're probably just badass naturally. Edited June 25, 2015 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Haha not formal training. But they had to be strong... In any case I don't agree with the theory that village boys were trained (what anandpuria said). If Bidhi Chands training was prior to becoming Guru Ka Sikh it had to do with his dacoity days not village level.  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 There is an author who claims Guru Harkrishan had a group of soldiers and even deployed them once but he actually mixed it up with Guru Har Rai (author in question is the late Surjit Singh Gandhi)I have also talked to a scholar who claims Guru Hargobind actually inherited a group of bodyguards that later transformed into his army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) *** Edited July 26, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 Gurinder Singh Mann seems to believe that Guru Arjan started the practice of keeping a small army due to his interpreation of some of Guru Arjans shabads..Amardeep, I have read GS Manns opinion on 5th Patshahs small 'army' in the past but have since lost the document. Can you post the complete document here? The deeper I delve into this, the more I feel that GS Mann is right in making the aforementioned claim. Therefore I'd like to re-read GS Manns opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) Ok found it. Its in: Sources for the Study of Guru Gobind Singh's Life and Times by MannSadly he covers it very briefly and fails to elaborate on the "5th Patshahs small army" claim with any historical sources (others than the Dabistan which I did not find anywhere on pg 68 of Sikh history from Persian Sources nor the whole Dabistan). I've found a book that makes a similar claim but again provides no historical references (Ranghretia da Ithaas by Niranjan Arfi) Edited July 27, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted August 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Wikipedia quotes HR Gupta to say Guru Tegh Bahadur had bodyguards. Didn't find the reference on the page number (188) though As had been the custom among Sikhs after the execution of Guru Arjan by Mughal Emperor Jahangir, Guru Tegh Bahadur was surrounded by armed bodyguards.[14] He himself lived an austere life.[15]14 H.R. Gupta. History of the Sikhs: The Sikh Gurus, 1469-1708 1. p. 188. ISBN 9788121502764. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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