HSD1 Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 100th post!! Woohoo! At least this thread was good for something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) I think the onus was on the development of military technology (predictably), the spread of advancements to other fields hadn't occurred yet and probably would have only happened in a period of sustained stability, say over the next 40/50 years. I don't know of any mentions of technological innovations in the agricultural field myself. If you know something, please do share. Plus seriously, you're emitting this whole 'obnoxious' 'supercilious' vibe. I don't know if it's unintentional or not but please, keep it in check. What leads you to believe there was a shortage of recruits for the artillery? I would have thought the gubroos would have been queuing up for the role? Why would there be difficulties in recruiting and training for this prestigious position? I know the burliest of men where chosen for this role from contemporary accounts. I would have thought old Panjab had a lot of guys like this? - "The Seikh artillery, with whom we contended, were picked men, both for their valour and size; they were indeed gigantic, their usual stature being six feet to six feet three inches, muscular and active in proportion. we were only like Lilliputians in comparison to those huge monsters and I marvelled that they did not kill us and swallow us slick out the way." Although I find your idea of uniform manufacture quite fascinating, and do wonder if some centralised source created and issued these, they could have also been personally commissioned on an individual basis? You would have thought some whitey would have mentioned any tailoring industry? Have we overlooked any early references to it? Surely uniforms would be of interest to whitey? Maybe they considered it unremarkable? You should understand all our craftsmen weren't 'top scratch' I mean compare the Napoleonic medals with the Sikh 'replicas' (see attachment) the difference in quality is stark (even if the Sikh one was probably worth a lot more in terms of the use of precious materials). Edited June 16, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 True. I was once told on SS that I would die 'with a big axe stuck in my back' by one of the frequent posters on there. So if you want to kill me you'll have to get in line. This is you: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the onus was on the development of military technology (predictably), the spread of advancements to other fields hadn't occurred yet and probably would have only happened in a period of sustained stability, say over the next 40/50 years. I don't know of any mentions of technological innovations in the agricultural field myself. If you know something, please do share. Well the fact that the British confiscated and destroyed whatever Punjabi Sikh farmers were using means we will never know exactly what it was. But it did force large numbers of people back into farmwork, showing that the equipment that was there was able to reduce the amount of people needed in farming. I only found out about what the British did when I was having an argument with someone at school, the only literary source to confirm this was in Niddar's book even though he seems to have the other end of the stick to what I was told. Plus seriously, you're emitting this whole 'obnoxious' 'supercilious' vibe. I don't know if it's unintentional or not but please, keep it in check. Lol, I think this may be more to do with how people interpret what I'm saying. Stop being a pindhu Dal, I'm not rubbing my super-duper massive cranium destroying intelligence into anyone's face, so there's no need to be insecure. It was unintentional. What leads you to believe there was a shortage of recruits for the artillery? I would have thought the gubroos would have been queuing up for the role? Why would there be difficulties in recruiting and training for this prestigious position? I know the burliest of men where chosen for this role from contemporary accounts. I would have thought old Panjab had a lot of guys like this? - It wasnt a shortage of men but the fact we had to rely on non-sikhs to make up a lot of our numbers, many of whom's loyalty came into question. Even after that we still had gun parks of siege artillery according to some of the accounts. Look at this article (may have been written by the same guy as in that video): http://www.sikhspectrum.com/112005/artillery_maharaja_ranjit_singh.htm Over 500 guns but only a few dozen were used in both wars. The thing is that the military was responsible for 50-70% of government expenditure back then. It would have been unsustainable to pay for more regiments and artillery troops even though we had the resources to build plenty of guns and cannons. This was due to the fact most of the Khalsa Raj's income came from taxing farmers. If we has sea ports we could have taxed trade and businesses set up due to international trade, like the French and British did. In the 19th century war became linked to propaganda, economies, politics and a whole lot of other factors outside of an army that needed to be addressed in order to secure victory. In another thread you once said the Khalsa was ready for a guerilla war at the end of the Second Anglo-Sikh war. But you didnt take population into account. Most Sikh sources put the sikh population of Punjab at 750000-1.5 million in Punjab in the 1840s. At Sobraon we lost 8,000-10,000 men in what was effectively a war crime. Factor that into today's Sikh population... losing 10 thousand men in 1846 was like a modern day Sikh army losing 250,000-300,000 men!!! Can you imagine a Sikh state in the 21st century losing that many men and equipment? It would be a catastrophe. It was a catastrophe back then, but the Sikhs still had another war in them. We lost that too, but we were outnumbered and suffering from the treaty from the FASW. On the other hand, Britain's population was 16-20 million at the time. India's was probably in the hundreds of millions. My point is that we didnt just lose because of Dogra traitors and Muslim Punjabi uprisings but in the field of economics, population structure and loyalty and geopolitics. Technolgy was about the only thing we did right. Although I find your idea of uniform manufacture quite fascinating, and do wonder if some centralised source created and issued these, they could have also been personally commissioned on an individual basis? You would have thought some whitey would have mentioned any tailoring industry? Have we overlooked any early references to it? Surely uniforms would be of interest to whitey? Maybe they considered it unremarkable? I know that dyes for uniforms and aristocratic fashion was what kickstarted those industries in America, Britain and France to industrialise. We had an army with brightly coloured uniforms and plenty of aristocrats. Being a defeated nation though, the British probably thought it best to destroy the mills and factories to force Punjabis to buy from British manufacturers or the British owned sweatshops set up by the East India Company. If we are to ever find any proof it will probably be in British accounts of what they planned to destroy/remove. Unfortunately I have no idea how to get hold of these or who could. But seeing as most their literature is about 'civilising' us and building goddamn railways I dont know if we will ever find 100% proof. But it will leave the question of where the Khalsa got all the uniforms from, along with the dyes to make those colours and who made buttons/belts/cases/cooking equipment for those thousands of men. You should understand all our craftsmen weren't 'top scratch' I mean compare the Napoleonic medals with the Sikh 'replicas' (see attachment) the different in quality is stark (even if the Sikh one was probably worth a lot more in terms of the use of precious materials). I'm not trying to make it sound like Atlantis, but you need to see it like this; there are 3 main ways of coming up with an idea: 1. You think of it yourself, or it comes as a logical evolution of a previous idea 2. You steal the idea 3. Someone gives you the idea Now with medals, I dont think the Khalsa Raj ever had such a thing, maybe because they didnt fit in with the notion of Dharam Yudh, I'm not too sure. We got the idea from the French. We copied it and our early examples were a bit dodgy like that picture. But look at our artillery. At the turn of the 19th century it was terrible and nothing compared to the British, as most pieces had to be disposed of after a campaign. Less than 4 decades later we had overrun British technology. Few of their accounts publically acknowledge this but we licked them pretty good until they started using 24 and 32 pounders against our 6 and 12 pounders in the Battle of Gujrat. My point is that any idea or technology has teething problems if it is new. Prototypes have rough edges, things dont work, tinkering is needed etc. But over time the gap closes. The French had been making medals for centuries. If we had won the ASW, our medals would have improved. And each war after that our medals would have looked more formal and shown the right amount of class to reflect the valour of the recipient. But it was not to be. Also note that if that medal is in a French collection, they may not know how to look after the medal as it was made of more precious materials than the French ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) I vaguely recall one guy who went into detail about the economics of the then independent kingdom. Will try and find it again in case it sheds some further light into the state of technology. I have to say though, all of this just turns into a journey of heartache for me. It's like torturing yourself over something lost forever. Lol, I think this may be more to do with how people interpret what I'm saying. Stop being a pindhu Dal, I'm not rubbing my super-duper massive cranium destroying intelligence into anyone's face, so there's no need to be insecure. It was unintentional. You was unnecessarily rude to kds though. Just don't do it again. Edited June 16, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I have to say though, all of this just turns into a journey of heartache for me. It's like torturing yourself over something lost forever. What doesnt kill you only makes you stronger. It may hurt you, but think of all those achievements our ancestors achieved being lost to time and people thinking the British civilised us. Seeing as we love picking up bits of our past for today's world, this should give Sikhs an idea that being a pindu on a farm is not where real strength lies. You was unnecessarily rude to kds though. Just don't do it again. I was explaining things to him and giving him links but he kept doing that typical indian thing of 'I am right and I will only accept evidence that supports me'. What kind of attitude is that? Life is about searching and acquiring as much information as one can, processing the good stuff from the rubbish, then forming attitudes and traits from the best of it. Not just what is put in your head as your raised, to then be doggedly defended to the death. I wasnt intentionally rude and none of it was personal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 What doesnt kill you only makes you stronger. It may hurt you, but think of all those achievements our ancestors achieved being lost to time and people thinking the British civilised us. Seeing as we love picking up bits of our past for today's world, this should give Sikhs an idea that being a pindu on a farm is not where real strength lies. This is only useful if the information is widely disseminated and understood and pindus will resist this as their whole self-image is based on some strange allegiance to farming. Which curiously doesn't seem to sustain the majority of their families? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I wasnt intentionally rude and none of it was personal. So you don't call this rude and personal? Another clueless comment. Maybe you should go back to that Ravidassi thread were I had to hammer this into you. Didnt you watch the video? It is clear your grasp of history is basic. Do you know alot about industrialisation in early 19th century Europe? Obviously not. Do you know anything about 19th century warfare? Obviously not. You dont know what your on about so it's wonder why you bother posting. And argue with non-sikhs who are just as moronic as you are? You utter moron: It's good to see you know you've been proved wrong. HSD2, perhaps it's you who should work with your ego and stop acting like one of those blokes from the UK who think they're God's gift to mankind! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Banged to rights Harj....... lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 HSD, have you considered giving an apology to kdsingh80? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 So you don't call this rude and personal? HSD2, perhaps it's you who should work with your ego and stop acting like one of those blokes from the UK who think they're God's gift to mankind! In the UK that's what's know as rigorous and muscular debating. An intellectual level up from jovial banter. As for God's gift to mankind, you dont even know me, I may very well be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 This is only useful if the information is widely disseminated and understood and pindus will resist this as their whole self-image is based on some strange allegiance to farming. Which curiously doesn't seem to sustain the majority of their families? Well they cant all resist it. Rather than thinking of these people and the need to get them on board, think rather of getting this information out there, then seeing who accepts it and kicking the rest to the side and moving on. Leaving them in their own shit, where they would rather be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 In the UK that's what's know as rigorous and muscular debating. An intellectual level up from jovial banter. As for God's gift to mankind, you dont even know me, I may very well be. No, I don't know you and thank God for that, and I think we all know who is God's gift to mankind and who isn't... Let's just say, you aren't one of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Okay, now we've got some broad contours of a hidden recent Sikh past that is very much relevant to the technological nature of the 21st century. Once we've refined and defined this information, what are the most effective ways of disseminating this stuff to the Sikh masses - in a way that will effect them positively (especially the backward rural element)? We have to be careful of their tendency to try and appropriate all positive Sikh things and try and pass them off as their own personal achievements mind you. See in this respect (I feel) the Singh Sabha lehar was conspicuously successful in spreading their message en masse though we are living in a different time and context today. PS - Be a bigger man and apologise to KDS. Edited June 17, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 No, I don't know you and thank God for that, and I think we all know who is God's gift to mankind and who isn't... Let's just say, you aren't one of them. Thankyou, Ambassador for all Mankind, at least I know now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm not an ambassador, I'm a female prophet who have conversations with God everyday so I know exactly who are His gift's to mankind and who isn't. P.s before you attack me like you did yesterday, please notice the irony this time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Okay, now we've got some broad contours of a hidden recent Sikh past that is very much relevant to the technological nature of the 21st century. Once we've refined and defined this information, what are the most effective ways of disseminating this stuff to the Sikh masses - in a way that will effect them positively (especially the backward rural element)? We have to be careful of their tendency to try and appropriate all positive Sikh things and try and pass them off as their own personal achievements mind you. This is the part that stumped me. Films, books and tv? In order to do that you need money, connections and technical know-how. As for the pindus, it'll be hard for them to big themselves up to cover these achievements, especially if sikhs back then are portrayed as intelligent forward thinkers and sikhs nowadays as backwards pindus. But one way of looking at is like this: sikhs back then achieved things, today sikhs cant do anything, therefore implying there is an inherent difference in how we are a nation/community/individuals today compared to back then. The more thought you apply, the more stuff you can come up with to show that we are just shadows of what we were. The thing is our aim should be to become what we once were, not get bogged down in the gutter with the pindus and the southall coconuts etc. Kick them to one side and leave them behind. See in this respect (I feel) the Singh Sabha lehar was conspicuously successful in spreading their message en masse though we are living in a different time and context today. As they say, horses for courses. PS - Be a bigger man and apologise to KDS. I'll apologise as soon as he stops going on female orgasm sites to find evidence to prove that his views on women are correct. HSD never apologises to bigots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 PS - Be a bigger man and apologise to KDS. Dal, what happened to you? Are you okay? I'm surprised something like that came from you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm not an ambassador, I'm a female prophet who have conversations with God everyday so I know exactly who are His gift's to mankind and who isn't. P.s before you attack me like you did yesterday, please notice the irony this time. So now I attacked you! God, somebody haul me in chains before the Hague, is there any crime I am not guilty of? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 So now I attacked you! God, somebody haul me in chains before the Hague, is there any crime I am not guilty of? I will have to think about that and let you know if other things comes up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 This is the part that stumped me. Films, books and tv? In order to do that you need money, connections and technical know-how. This is what needs to be worked on now. Let's be outright at the gate, no one is about to invest in a Sikh 'Braveheart' and even if someone hypothetically did hordes of our people wouldn't even bother watching it. As for Sikh TV, watch the numerous channels we have already to get an idea of where we are at. Problem with Sikh stuff is its limited appeal (even amongst Sikhs!). Whatever does get tried needs to be multipronged though. Are we years away from that? Look at where we are at right now...... I noticed most of what we've got has got that strange Indian 'goofy' quality to it? But that is me talking from a degree of western enculturisation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Look at where we are at right now...... I noticed most of what we've got has got that strange Indian 'goofy' quality to it? But that is me talking from a degree of western enculturisation. Those cartoon movies were pretty good. They are made for children. My brother's children love them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Mitar's post made me think. I think the scarcity of material isn't with stuff for children, if anything we have lots of this type of material. The need is for adult, entertaining, educational, though provoking, stimulating stuff. Things that deliver what people go elsewhere to get - stuff that will 'edutain' them to have wider perspectives. Edited June 17, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Addition: It MUST have cross cultural appeal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I will have to think about that and let you know if other things comes up. Thank you for taking time out of your busy life to fill the role of my oh so non-existant conscience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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