Ganda Singh On Guru Gobind Singh Ji

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat's theory is so tenuous; he should own up to it instead of prancing about like he has any substance to it. Truth is that caste has never been as concrete as people make out today. Like all societies things were in a flux due to all manner of external circumstances with people dropping in and out of jaats.

Except that I have already mentioned this, numerous times. So simply repeating it does not show how it fits into your argument. This is a very poor attempt at taking down my theory lol.

Only at some point in history certain people got so desperate about this natural flux that some twat came out with unbelievably harsh rules to try and maintain the status quo of that moment (hence manusmitri). And fudus have been trying to maintain that ever since. lol

Have you actually read the manu smriti or you just making shit up? C'mon let's see you back this up.

Edited November 7, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[BhagatSingh]

A cook is not shudra's duty. Kitchen was always a sacred place for upper caste and only castes which are acceptable were allowed into kitchen.According to above Dohra there should have been Vaishya warriors and kings and shudra priests. But I don't think I have heard about them

Also Gangu Brahmin is controversial character , some say he never existed

That's fine Kds. I have only looked into the kshatriyas because of BN and because of khalsa's "kshatriya-hood". I am sure there are examples of other castes out there. We'd have to go and find them.

That's not the focus though. My point was that Guru Sahibs' were largely rooted in their tradition and were working within it. The discussion we are having about caste, is a very small part of this.

Edited November 7, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

Have you actually read the manu smriti or you just making shit up? C'mon let's see you back this up.

I've only read translations. But what are you trying to say? That it isn't essentially a document that tries to set hard and fast rules to maintain the varna structure set at some point in time?

ਵੱਡਾ ਆਇਆ, ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਅਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ !!! lol

Only at some point in history certain people got so desperate about this natural flux that some twat came out with unbelievably harsh rules to try and maintain the status quo of that moment (hence manusmitri). And fudus have been trying to maintain that ever since. lol

ਮੁੰਡੇਆ, ਤੂੰ ਆ ਚਕੱਰਾਂ'ਚ ਫਸ ਗੇਆ, ਬੇਵਖੂਫ ਨਾ ਬਣ !

[dalsingh101]

Except that I have already mentioned this, numerous times. So simply repeating it does not show how it fits into your argument. This is a very poor attempt at taking down my theory lol

If this is true why don't you say that Ksyattris came from Vaisnavs and low castes then? Why have you made the fixed point of identity a Khatri one and made any change a 'deviation' from that?

Tera theory = pukka buckwaas

Edited November 7, 2013 by dalsingh101

[BhagatSingh]

Rofl!

...your punjabi needs work lol. Let's stop goofing around and work on them translations.

[BhagatSingh]

If this is true why don't you say that Ksyattris came from Vaisnavs and low castes then? Why have you made the fixed point of identity a Khatri one and made any change a 'deviation' from that?

Tera theory = pukka buckwaas

Tbh I am not even sure anymore what you are trying to get at. But to respond to this point.

Some Kshatriya also came from lower castes, proly a good example of this is Maharaja Ranjit Singh period. The Marattha, also the Pindari, etc.

Many Vaishnus were Kshatriya as well. Pre-Guru Gobind Singh period, the armies of Guru Hargobind Sahib were Vaishnu (this is why i want to get my hands on Gurbilas 6). Post-dasam pita, Banda was Vaishnu.

Edited November 7, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

^^^

Good, then we are agreed that the whole thing is flimsy and in flux and nothing is immutable. Identities are confused and scattered and subject to change.

End of.

As Sikhs what we do have in common is the principle of egalitarianism. All Sikhs are supposed to be equal and we need to assert that fundamental of our heritage now more than ever as people have a tendency to get jumped up on their caste identity which weakens our cohesion; encouraging predators to circle us. On another thread I notices that Khalsa has been referred to as a jaat in Khalsa Mehima, which is interesting in terms of the oneness of this label.

We'll get started back on that translation real soon. But we wont get anally retentive on it like last time. We'll get the intended meaning out (presuming we correctly identify this). You might want start up where we left off actually. I'll join you in a few days and critique your translation.

Edited November 7, 2013 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Plus correct my Panjabi above if it sucks please. I'm well out of practice.

[BhagatSingh]

^^^

Good, then we are agreed that the whole thing is flimsy and in flux and nothing is immutable. Identities are confused and scattered and subject to change.

What isn't? lol

As Sikhs what we do have in common is the principle of egalitarianism. All Sikhs are supposed to be equal and we need to assert that fundamental of our heritage now more than ever as people have a tendency to get jumped up on their caste identity which weakens our cohesion; encouraging predators to circle us.

Fair.

On another thread I notices that Khalsa has been referred to as a jaat in Khalsa Mehima, which is interesting in terms of the oneness of this label.

It is. It is one of the kshatriya jaats. (Back then) Khalsa was all kshatriya, military, warrior, soldier-types. Many sikhs didn't take amrit. One of the reasons was because they did not possess the kshatriya temperament or had no interest in warfare. This is why all jaat-related names (e.g. Das, Ram, Chand of the 5) were changed to Singh. Dharam Das > Dharam Singh, Daya Ram> Daya Singh, Himmat Chand > Himmat Singh... etc

That made it it's own jaat.

We'll get started back on that translation real soon. But we wont get anally retentive on it like last time. We'll get the intended meaning out (presuming we correctly identify this). You might want start up where we left off actually. I'll join you in a few days and critique your translation.

Plus correct my Panjabi above if it sucks please. I'm well out of practice.

K I'll PM you.

Edited November 8, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[Singh123456777]

Who is Shiv ji's wife? why do people call her jagat di mata?

His wife was parvarti.They called her jagat di mata because she is supposed to be the creator.They say she durga herself.

She is supposed to be Goddes of power,Creation and victory of good over evil.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Singh123456777

[chatanga1]

Bhagat Singh, did the Great Guru know that the low castes were actually khatris?

I ask because when Guru asked the khashatri hill chief to take amrit, they refused because of the lower castes. If Guru Ji had known these low castes were actually Khashatri, he could have told them, and they would have become Sikhs.

[dalsingh101]

Bhagat Singh, did the Great Guru know that the low castes were actually khatris?

I ask because when Guru asked the khashatri hill chief to take amrit, they refused because of the lower castes. If Guru Ji had known these low castes were actually Khashatri, he could have told them, and they would have become Sikhs.

Kapow!!!

Take that you glorified shop keeper! lol

[GtLoc]

The great guru knows all. Even das in his moorakh ways, would not disclose that to a rajput. It would be empowering and justifying his caste prejudice.

[dalsingh101]

The great guru knows all. Even das in his moorakh ways, would not disclose that to a rajput. It would be empowering and justifying his caste prejudice.

Instead das flirts around with trying to big himself up about being a jat.

Shaabaash

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat Singh, did the Great Guru know that the low castes were actually khatris?

I ask because when Guru asked the khashatri hill chief to take amrit, they refused because of the lower castes. If Guru Ji had known these low castes were actually Khashatri, he could have told them, and they would have become Sikhs.

The Great Guru knew of his ancestry but not the ancestry of Das, Ram and Chand of his own sikhs? Lol

Chatanga this is a power struggle man. Hill chiefs already have power. Taking amrit would mean relinquishing their power to Guru Sahib. Remember from their perspective the one leading the khalsa is a smaller king (if any) than they are.

Edited November 8, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[BhagatSingh]

His wife was parvarti.They called her jagat di mata because she is supposed to be the creator.They say she durga herself.

She is supposed to be Goddes of power,Creation and victory of good over evil.

Ok so why is she called creator? Why is she called Goddess of power?

Basically, what qualities is she known for?

[BhagatSingh]

Dally your fist is still lodged in my broken monitor screen, can you please pull it out already!

Ps you owe me $180 for the broken monitor.

Edited November 8, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[Singh123456777]

Ok so why is she called creator? Why is she called Goddess of power?

Basically, what qualities is she known for?

Look it up.

[BhagatSingh]

Look it up.

So you don't know?

[Singh123456777]

So you don't know?

I do know but you would get your answers much quicker that way.

[BhagatSingh]

Ok then explain what you know lol. I wana know what you know.

[dalsingh101]

The Great Guru knew of his ancestry but not the ancestry of Das, Ram and Chand of his own sikhs? Lol

You're way off dude. Stop spouting that rubbish theory that the panj piaray were Khatris. Plus the ugly truth is that Sikh Khatris today are generally pacifists and have long turned their back on manly fighting - especially those little cuddly shop owning ones I meet in London. They don't seem interested or even capable of fighting today to be honest. Maybe that is why other Kshayttris stopped intermarrying with them as someone mentioned earlier? I'm sure that first cousin marriage shite doesn't help much either.

When we are facing so many global problems as a community today (rape and abuse of Sikh girls in the UK [which you never seem to comment on?], Singhs getting attacked and murdered in the US, drug addiction, hogi bastards hijacking Sikh institutes in Panjab to make their bellies even more plump! etc. etc.) don't be a jackass and withdraw to some egocentric, historic glory days of your tribe for some twisted sense of self-worth - you are better than that....

Focus on trying to resolve the problems of today instead of trying to make yourself feel good about your tribal history. That's just a level 1 haumai trap; shame on you for falling for it.

Edited November 9, 2013 by dalsingh101

[BhagatSingh]

You're way off dude.

You keep saying that but you have so far added nothing meaningful to the conversation in the last few posts. Let alone present evidence to the contrary.

-Stop spouting that rubbish theory

-don't be a jackass and withdraw to some egocentric, historic glory days of your tribe

-Focus on trying to resolve the problems of today instead of trying to make yourself feel good about your tribal history. That's just a level 1 haumai trap; shame on you for falling for it.

Dude stop being a jerk. I don't appreciate such remarks.

I know you get off on dissing others but cut it down a notch if you want to have a real discussion. Put away your moral superiority complex. It is disgusting. When I came here with my views, you immediately hid behind your condescending insults. One after another, non-stop. Enough of this. It's getting tiring.

Learn something from Chatanga and Kds. They did a much better job of displaying their interest in Itihaas.

I am open for a discussion of the facts, whatever they maybe. We agreed right from the start that we are after the ones most supported by evidence. This is task is difficult enough. There's no room for the kind of behaviour that you are displaying. Am I clear? So you are either going to discuss the topic in a civil manner or there will be no discussion.

Edited November 10, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

I am open for a discussion of the facts, whatever they maybe.

Well the facts are that we just about started having hogi jatts calming their own caste bullshit down a notch, and then you've come along with your Khatri bullshit which is plainly just an extension of your desire to lionise your own community, who incidentally appear to have largely become cowardly pacifists today (so maybe that's why you need to over assert?). Then you try and deviously take away from the achievements of common people in the panj pyaray by twisting facts around on the most tenuous of links (which essentially boils down to insisting that ubiquitous surnames shared by many different jaats are Ksyattri ones). This is as about as clever as the white man who thought that messangatea sounded like jat i.e. complete bollocks. But we know these things are dangerous because they just cause idiots to have inflated senses of their worth so you need to clearly be told to pipe down.

As for your cry baby threat to not debate and go crying to your momma because "dalsingh used harsh East End language" (waaaahhhh!!!); if that's the type of shite you come out with, maybe it's better you do disengage until your period is finished?

Warrior caste my arse..........

[kdsingh80]

That's fine Kds. I have only looked into the kshatriyas because of BN and because of khalsa's "kshatriya-hood". I am sure there are examples of other castes out there. We'd have to go and find them.

That's not the focus though. My point was that Guru Sahibs' were largely rooted in their tradition and were working within it. The discussion we are having about caste, is a very small part of this.

New religions , sects of religion , movements start with breaking of traditions atleast few of them.Sikhs guru's broke many traditions O/W I Don't think there was even need of sikhism.Forget about Castes of Panj pyare even it is doubt full that

whether Khatri's are kshatriya's or not

http://www.sikhcastes.com/

Please note that although the word Khatri appears to be a vernacular form of Sanskrit Kshatriya, the caste is exclusively composed of cloth merchants, grocers, perfume sellers (or "Gandhis") and traders . Dashrath Sharma, an eminent historian, has described this caste as probably a "pratiloma" or ritually inferior mixed caste created through union of Kshatriya fathers and brahmin mothers. Some say that they are the descendants of Shudra fathers and Kshatriya mothers. It is impossible to ascertain which one or both of the views are actually true. S.N. Sadasivan cites a version of the popular fable regarding the origin of Khatris which is closer to the latter view, that is , Khatris are a caste born of the union of Kshatriya mothers and Shudra fathers. In the ancient India such mixed castes such as Khatris were regarded as "'varnasankara" and were denied the respectability extended to the well-born and ritually pure Kshatriyas and Brahmins. Manu Smriti gives the name of a caste of this composition as "Kshaatri" instead of "Kshatriya". The word Khatri accordingly may have originated from "Kshaatri" instead of "Kshatriya". Rajputs , the bonafide Hindu Kshatriya caste, disown all connection with them and treat them same as one of the Baniya castes. Aggarwal Baniyas, a reputable vaishya caste of Hindus, also deny any link with them.

English ethnographer Sir Herbert Hope Risley also denied the possibility of the link of Khatris with Kshatriyas. He wrote in 'The tribes and castes of Bengal' : "It seems to me that the internal organization of the caste furnishes almost conclusive proof that they are descended from neither Brahmans nor Kshatriyas...The section-names of the Khatris belong to quite a different type, and rather resemble those in vogue among the Oswals and Agarwals. Were they descended from the same stock as the Rajputs, they must have had the same set of section-names, and it is difficult to see why they should have abandoned these for less distinguished patronymics. In addition to their own sections, they have also the standard Brahmanical gotras ; but these have no influence upon marriage, and have clearly been borrowed, honoris ctium, from the Saraswat Brahmans who serve them as priests. If, then, it is at all necessary to connect the Khatris with the ancient fourfold system of castes, the only group to which we can affiliate them is the Vaisyas" William Hunter gave similar opinion in The Imperial Gazetter.

Some speculate that the word Khatri is derived from the word "Khata" . Before the partition of Punjab, Khatris were largely concetrated in West Punjab where, according to English writer Barstow, they were employed in a rather humble way by Pathans as their accountants. It is in this reference some derive the origin of word "Khatri" from "Khata" or an accounting scroll. It could be that Arora caste which came under patronage of Pathans and Khokhars in NWFP and upper western Punjab as their accountants came to be called "Khatri" because of maintaining "Khatas" or accounting books of their patrons. Pathans, according to Barstow, could treat Khatris like personal property , much like the medieval lords in Europe who treated their Jews like chattels. He wrote , "In Afghanistan, among a rough alien people, the Khatris are, as a rule, confined to the position of humble dealers, shopkeepers and moneylenders; but in that capacity the Pathans seem to look on them as a kind of valuable animal and a Pathan will steal another man's Khatri not only for the sake of ransom, as is sometimes done in Peshawar and the Hazara frontier, but also as he might steal a milch-cow, or Jews might, I dare say, be carried off in the middle ages with a veiw to render them profitable."

In many other Indian regions like Mysore and Gujrat the term Khatri is synonymous with the caste of weavers or Julahas and sometimes also with the caste of tailors or Darjis. English writer Dr. Buchanan wrote that ' in Behar one-half of the Khatris are goldsmiths.' Another writer of English era added that 'the 'Khatris are traders in Punjab, and silk-weavers, when we find them in Bombay.' Lewis Rice offered a similar view about the Khatri caste in various regions of India.

Khatris are said to have a peculiar custom termed as "Hansa Tamasha" whereby when an old man dies , all members of the decesased family put on masks, sing and play, and sometimes indulge in obscene songs.

As stated before, sphere of Khatri and Arora influence in Punjab is the urban centres where they dominate the shopkeeping profession. Being connected with commerce and trading, their literacy rate is among the highest in Punjab and they were also the earliest beneficiaries of colonial education system being located in urban areas. Khatris are a forward caste in Punjab but as we have seen that neither their social standing nor their occupations are uniform across the country. It is no surprise they are enlisted among Other Backward Castes (OBC) in many other states like Gujrat, Tamil Nadu, etc.