Questions On This Sarooop

[chatanga1]

I have just been to my village in panjab for 2 weeks. whilst at the Gurdwara, it was broght to my attention that there was a handwritten copy of Guru Granth Sahib. I had a look through it and have taken some pictures of it, because there are 2 things i dont understand in it.

I will upload these pics from my camera if it works and maybe you can help decipher what it means.

[chatanga1]

the first pic in the tatkara shows after Raagmala an entry which says " JUMLA 49". what could this mean?

the 2nd pic shows the saroop ending with raagmala and then the concluding lines. is this what is meant by jumla 49?

the date on which it has been written has 5 characters 11939.

also this saroop has bindis in it.

Edited September 6, 2011 by chatanga1

[osingh1]

Chatanga ji

I think JUMLA means total.

In some tatkara I have seen JUMLA - 46 amd JUMLA - 49, in tatkara there a 46 headings, ie sri Raag, raag maajh....., therefore Total/Jumla = 46, I have also seen tatkara with again 46 headings with JUMLA - 49. I understand Jumla/Total - 46 but not Jumla/Total 49.

As for date I have seen this once before but haven't worked out why there are two 1's. I can only guess the date is 1939/1882.

Have you taken any pictures with words that have bindis?

There is a sakhi that when sri Guru Gobind Singh ji was dictating bani for Damdami bir to bhai sahib bhai Mani Singh ji, bhai sahib noticed that there was a difference in this granth Damdami Bir in relation to Kartarpuri Bir which bhai sahib had done darshan of. He noticed that there were less bindis than in the Kartarpuri Bir. Maharaj replied by saying that GurSikhs will have to concentrate more when reading bani in order to put bindis in correct place when reading bani. This could mean that this particular granth is a copy of the Kartarpuri Bir.

Rabb Rakhe

Edited September 12, 2011 by osingh1

[chatanga1]

thanks bro!!!

i was beginnning to think no-one would know.

tell me more about the dates you have written ie the 2 years.

i have some pics but they are on a camera left in india. it should be coming in about 4 weeks.

Edited September 13, 2011 by chatanga1

[osingh1]

"tell me more about the dates you have written ie the 2 years."

You have misunderstood ji, what I meant was:

1939 - bikrami date (indian calender)

1882 - solar calender (western calender used today)

This is just a guess, I have just removed a 1 to make 1939.

Also the saroop has excellent handwriting, very clear akhars (letters).

I am currently going through all the puratan saroops on PDL website. The only problem is that they don't have many 17th century saroops digitised at the moment, which would be interesting.

Also did the saroop contain only Ragmala or were there any other additional banis such as jit dar lakh ....which in many cases procede Ragmala.

Make sure you post the other pictures when you get them veer ji.

Edited September 13, 2011 by osingh1

[chatanga1]

yes ony raagmala after mundavni.

the saroop has 1780 pages in it so its pretty big. only every leaf is numbered, so at the end it said 890, sso i initially thought that some banis may not be present but checking it more, i realised my error.

nowadays we assume that Aad Guru always had 1430 angs, but this just a recent innovation isnt it?

yes i see what you mean about the dates, im so thick arent i.

i will deffo get them pics up as and when i can.

[chatanga1]

have got some more pictures.

there are 3 bindis in this part that i can see.

Edited September 14, 2011 by chatanga1

[chatanga1]

heres some more:

the writing on these pages are different, in size. probably another pen was used or it may be a new leaf/and in the saroop or something.

[osingh1]

Thanks for the post veer ji.

For the 2nd pic it is the same likhari (writer) on both pages, the akhars on both pages match.

Also the 2nd pic is of jap ji sahib, if you notice there is a bindi on top of the word kaha, in:

kudrat kawan kaha vichar.

This bindi is not present in the standard saroop of today yet this bindi is correct for this word and should be part of ucharan. The bindi makes this into pehla purakh/first person. This matches with the sakhi above of there being more bindi's present in the Kartarpuri Bir, it is a fact that there are more bindis present in puratan saroops. This proves that bindis need to be put in the correct places as part of gurbani ucharan.

Also puratan hand written saroops vary in regards to number of pages. The page numbers were standardised when SGPC started to print saroops of Maharaj. If we had the Damdami Bir a lot of questions could finally be answered ie Ragmala, Mangals etc More research needs to be done into puratan saroops.

Anyway thanks for the pics and post any more you have. This particular saroop has clear handwriting, well done to the likhari! For me all saroops should be hand written in larivar form. Even today I think the Torah is still handwritten. Doing pad-ched was a mistake, I think Sant Samaj of that time opposed doing pad-ched of Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Rabb Rakhe

[Matheen]

nowadays we assume that Aad Guru always had 1430 angs, but this just a recent innovation isnt it?

Could be wrong, but I think the oldest saroop at Sri Hazur Sahib has 1430 Angs.

[osingh1]

"Could be wrong, but I think the oldest saroop at Sri Hazur Sahib has 1430 Angs."

I think it was SGPC that set the number of pages, how they came to this conclusion I don't know. Looking at puratan saroops of Guru Granth Sahib ji on PDL, page numbers vary. The only way to come to a firm conclusion is to find the original Damdami Bir.

I would also like to note that there are many saroops that claim to be from Baba Deep Singh ji, however when comparing the saroops side by side they don't match in term of handwriting. There is a saroop that claims to be from Baba Deep Singh ji on PDL yet their is no indication in the actual saroop that it is written by them.

Regardless, more research needs to be carried out in this area.

Rabb Rakhe