Woman As Guru

[chatanga1]

18 hours ago, Lucky said:

Are we following the soul or the vehicle? .....Do we judge the mind & soul as guru or the vehicle?... If the vehicle was guru, then it would have made sense to mummify all the gurus body's back then.

Problem is that we are always making judgments and looking via our physical eyes.  We need to learn to use the eyes of the consciousnes

 

We are following both vehicle and soul. Both are the halves that make up you and me. We read the words of Guru Granth Sahib, but we also do matha tek to Guru Granth Shaib when we go to the Gurdwara, when we are standing in front of Guru Ji. No-one does matha in the direction of Guru Granth Sahib in Gurdwara from their living room. we look with our physical eyes but also the gupt netar as well.

 

18 hours ago, Lucky said:

Problem is that we are always making judgments and looking via our physical eyes.  We need to learn to use the eyes of the consciousness

 

Ok,try living your life looking only with your conscious eyes, and cover your physical eyes up with something so you can't see. Then come back and tell us here, by getting someone else to type your thughts out on the keyboard.

 

17 hours ago, JasperS said:

In absolute concurrence with the above! Gurus were not the body, they were the jyot within. 

 

Jaspreet, you try it as well.

[JasperS]

4 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

 

We are following both vehicle and soul. Both are the halves that make up you and me. We read the words of Guru Granth Sahib, but we also do matha tek to Guru Granth Shaib when we go to the Gurdwara, when we are standing in front of Guru Ji. No-one does matha in the direction of Guru Granth Sahib in Gurdwara from their living room. we look with our physical eyes but also the gupt netar as well.

 

 

Ok,try living your life looking only with your conscious eyes, and cover your physical eyes up with something so you can't see. Then come back and tell us here, by getting someone else to type your thughts out on the keyboard.

 

 

Jaspreet, you try it as well.

I think you are seriously missing the mark. 

I don't think Lucky Ji meant that we have to walk around blind. We need to see to navigate. But we need to see beyond this illusion of Maya. 

If one arrives to Gurdwara in a red car and another in a blue car does it really matter?  The point is they both were going to the same destination and neither should have limitations placed or be put into status hierarchies because of what vehicle they happen to drive to get there. The body is just a vehicle and we are the passenger inside it and the passengers are all the same. In the case of the Gurus, it was the light inside that we follow, the vehicle tat they happened to arrive in, is inconsequential and ceased to exist even in their case. (or are you trying to say a male body is some higher status than a female one? Because Gurbani tells us otherwise and without getting into details because I fear from recent events this forum is not open about these topics but you know its true) The light is the only permanence. If you can't see it, then it's your own issue. 

My comment to Lucky Ji stands. 

 

 

 

 

[chatanga1]

On 21/12/2016 at 6:21 PM, JasperS said:

I think you are seriously missing the mark. 

I don't think Lucky Ji meant that we have to walk around blind. We need to see to navigate. But we need to see beyond this illusion of Maya.

 

Jaspreet, I agree that we need to see beyond illusion of Maya, but our human body is not Maya, like the 5 vikaar. We stil need our human body to acheive a connection with Waheguru. Guru Granth Sahib tells us, "you have obtained a human body, now is the time to serve your Lord", so our body means somethings. Gurbani also tells us that devi devte yearn for this human body as well.  It is a vehicle for our soul. A gender-based vehicle for a genderless soul. This is where I feel you are missing the mark. You dismiss our genders so flippantly, in the name of equality, but this is no equality at all.

[JasperS]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

 

Jaspreet, I agree that we need to see beyond illusion of Maya, but our human body is not Maya, like the 5 vikaar. We stil need our human body to acheive a connection with Waheguru. Guru Granth Sahib tells us, "you have obtained a human body, now is the time to serve your Lord", so our body means somethings. Gurbani also tells us that devi devte yearn for this human body as well.  It is a vehicle for our soul. A gender-based vehicle for a genderless soul. This is where I feel you are missing the mark. You dismiss our genders so flippantly, in the name of equality, but this is no equality at all.

So please tell me then brother, are you saying souls which get a female body are lower status than we are?  If so, then you have to qualify why. I don't think gurbani says anywhere that being born female is result of any past sin. (I am well aware of the passage where it says that a man who thinks of women (in sexual sense) at death will come back as prostitute, but that is a specific situation where women are exploited, and the one guilty of that exploitation what better punishment than to experience what it's like to be on the receiving end of that same exploitation. Same as a slave owner a fitting punishment would be to experience being a slave. This is not saying being a woman in general is a lower status than males. Just like saying a slave is not in a lower status. It's the ones doing the exploiting who are guilty.)  Other than that Gurbani says akal purakh is both the male AND the female. Gurbani also says for US as in all of us who walk the life of a gurmukh, to see all equally. I don't think you are following that. 

Gender matters only on superficial things. Yes you are correct! This HUMAN body was given and is our chance to merge with the one! Notice it does not say this male human body? It says this human body. The reason why a human body is required is because its only through this developed of consciousness that we can contemplate creation, creator, and our purpose. The animals are unable to do this because of lack of higher reasoning. They can certainly reason as my naughty little moggie will prove, but higher reasoning is not provided more to one gender over the other init? 

Being of medical background I have perspective on biology, and gender is only required for procreation. (the proof is that some species do exist which procreate asexually, snails for one) And the reason why gender was even needed was that genetically speaking, asexual reproduction is unreliable to prevent errors in the DNA the more complex a species becomes, requiring diversity of genetic material. This does not establish hierarchy though as both genders are equal halves of the same whole, the human species. Just like yin and yang can not be in a hierarchy, they must be in balance, so to the genders. As long as hierarchy exists in any state we will never achieve balance.  But proof is in gurbani. If gurbani is telling us that male and female are equal and moreover that we are to TREAT male and female equally (and you can not contest this fact) then how can you argue against gurbani?  How can you blatantly ignore what is written in guru granth sahib? How can you still think females are lower status than males?

Anyway I wanted to stay out of these conversations so that's my last word on that. It seems all these type of conversations turn into full out argument and it seems this forum is not too open to this subject. 

So my final comment on this matter, is I agree totally with what Lucky Ji said, the gender of the Gurus was inconsequential. Their body was a vehicle that we could interact with. The gender of that body at that time I imagine had to be male only for cultural reasoning, I mean look at even now, you flat out refuse to see your sisters on equal level with you, so imagine at that time if light of Guru Nanak Dev Ji had come in a female body would any pig headed males have listened? (and I say pig headed in jest, as I know I can be sometimes just ask my wife )  

 

[paapiman]

On 12/21/2016 at 8:26 AM, chatanga1 said:

We are following both vehicle and soul.

Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj is the living embodiment of 10 Male bodies. If anyone wishes to do Sargun pooja of Waheguru jee, then they will have to concentrate on/visualize a male body.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[JasperS]

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj is the living embodiment of 10 Male bodies. If anyone wishes to do Sargun pooja of Waheguru jee, then they will have to concentrate on/visualize a male body.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

paapiman, one should not be doing any sargun pooja or visualizing any "body" in relation to Waheguru:

1. Gurbani says Waheguru is formless

2. Gurbani says ALL forms are within Waheguru, therefore

3. Gurbani also says Waheguru is both the male AND the female, in fact

4. Gurbani tells us Waheguru is ALL there is. 

5. Gurbani tells us No single part of creation (no single form) can be wholly Waheguru

6. Gurbani tells us EVERY part of creation IS Waheguru not just human male and female, but all the animals, plants, minerals, planets, stars, stardust, every single atom.

7. Further Gurbani says that NO ONE can imagine Waheguru and one who tries will always fail. 

Therefore if someone is trying to visualize a male human thinking that is Waheguru they are seriously missing the mark.  I get it though, you want some privilege over others and think that your body makes you closer to Waheguru. This is very superiority thinking no different than Brahmans thinking those born in low caste make them further away from our Creator while the Brahman gets to enjoy high life ad be treated as being closer to God. You are completely disrespecting all our sisters by doing so.

Waheguru is not a body, but IS ALL bodies. 

 Finally, Waheguru is ONEness. You can't have sargun expression without the nirgun it manifests from. sargun or manifest creation survives only through duality. duality includes everything that was split apart. But Waheguru is not the duality but the ONEness. One who tries to put any label or visual on Waheguru has already failed because they are trying to equate only a small tiny part of the creation as the Creator when they (you) are missing that everything you see and experience while here is ALL Waheguru, but Waheguru is even much more than that. There are countless worlds, countless levels of existence beyond this one which also contain countless lifeforms all having different natures of existence (who knows maybe there are multiple genders beyond male and female even), so many and so fantastical that no creature in any part of the creation could ever comprehend and would go insane to try and grasp it. It's enough to marvel at the possibilities from this perspective and trust what is written in gurbani. 

[tva prasad]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:47 AM, JasperS said:

Being of medical background I have perspective on biology, and gender is only required for procreation

thanx jasperS. I have been trying to explain this in the past.

[paapiman]

On 12/16/2016 at 7:46 PM, Liv said:

Waheguru is represented as BOTH male and female in Gurbani ! So this connection can be as you wish .... imagine as your Supreme Goddess ?? Like your  Mataji "puta, maata ki asees!" ❤️

The feminine aspect of Sri Waheguru jee is covered in more details in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee. Please research more into this scripture and you might enjoy it.

 

Bhul chuk maaf