Anandpur Court Poets: Video

[dalsingh101]

Here's our old pal Amardeep from the forum giving a presentation on the poets of Guru Gobind Singh's darbar! I haven't seen it yet, but am looking forward to taking the time to watch this over the next few days when I get a free moment. A new years gift for us all! lol

Enjoy and learn.

Edited December 31, 2014 by dalsingh101

[BhagatSingh]

On "Hindu" writings
These writings are not part of a separate culture, belonging to an 'other', something opposed to and different from 'us'. Rather these are the writings of our ancestors, our own people, from the past.

These are our writings. They belong to us.
The authors are our ancestors not just in biology but also philosophy and religion, that is, we share common ways of thinking, metaphysics and spiritual practice with our ancestors. And we will realize this if we take the time to properly study these writings.

Later on he mentions -
In Mehma Prakash of 18th century mentions that the purpose was to teach the masses of their deprived literature ["Hindu" writings].

This is it.

ਅੰਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਮੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਕਰਿਅਹੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
In his last moment, the Satguru (Guru Amardas ji) said, "After me, continue to do kirtan"
ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥

and "Call Pandit Keso Gopal and have him read the stories of Hari, from the Puran, jio"

And the fact that the Gurus are constantly alluding to, and sometimes even describing in full detail, the tales from the Puranas and other scriptures (stories of Bhagat Dhruv, Bhagat Prahlad, Ajamal, Ganika, Dropadi, etc), confirms not only this quote but also backs up the sentiment expressed in Mahima Prakash, very strongly.

Even today the masses lack knowledge of this literature, especially amongst Sikhs. The incident with Navjot Singh Sidhu in the past few months is a recent example of this lack of knowledge.

Then he goes into the Q&A. One of the members from the audience explains how Guru Gobind Singh ji was carrying on a tradition, Pothi Mehl, that was already established before he entered the scene.
Exactly!

When I found this was the case a few years back, I read Chandi Di Var a little differently.
Previously I had assumed that since Chandi Di Var does not mention Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Manglacharan, that it must be Guru Gobind Singh ji who is writing this manglacharan.

However later I reasoned that any poet during Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's time, before Guru Gobind Singh ji was born or became guru, could have written the exact same manglacharan. (Meaning there needs to be other proof besides the manglacharan.)

Also the theological differences as expressed in Chandi di Var cannot be explained away by simply attributing certain translations upon the terms Bhagauti or Chandi, their meaning is quite clear. These theological differences occur far too often between various writings in Dasam Granth and between Dasam Granth and Guru Granth Sahib, which hints that Dasam Granth maybe a collection of writings part of the Pothi Mehl tradition. This confirms Amardeep's view towards the end of the Q&A period.

He brought up how some claims that parts of Dasam Granth are first person writing e.g. Bachittar Natak, hence the author is the Guru himself.
Writing in first person is not evidence of authorship either. As any poet can easily write in first person, this is very easy to do and it comes naturally the more you identify with the figure, the more you revere the figure. We see this in Bhagavad Gita.

Also the more you revere the figure the more grand and idealized your writing will become. There has to be other evidence.

Those are my thoughts for now. I think there is a lot of work to be done in this area.

[chatanga1]

The authors are our ancestors not just in biology but also philosophy and religion, that is, we share common ways of thinking, metaphysics and spiritual practice with our ancestors. And we will realize this if we take the time to properly study these writings.

I disagree with the religion. Our religion is not the same as Hinduism.

Later on he mentions -

In Mehma Prakash of 18th century mentions that the purpose was to teach the masses of their deprived literature ["Hindu" writings].

This is why. why did it become the Guru's role to reveal what the Hindu scriptures said, to the Hindus. And why in Kalyug, the finalyug?

ਅੰਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਮੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਕਰਿਅਹੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥

In his last moment, the Satguru (Guru Amardas ji) said, "After me, continue to do kirtan"

ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥

and "Call Pandit Keso Gopal and have him read the stories of Hari, from the Puran, jio"

Who's is this translation? What has the word ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ been translated as?

Was there an actual Pandit Keso Gopal at Guru JI's time?

What about now? Do we need this Pandit now?

[chatanga1]

Here's our old pal Amardeep from the forum giving a presentation on the poets of Guru Gobind Singh's darbar! I haven't seen it yet, but am looking forward to taking the time to watch this over the next few days when I get a free moment. A new years gift for us all! lol

Enjoy and learn.

Audio quality is so poor. I notice that there is a camcorder right next to him. Maybe this recording has made it online?

[BhagatSingh]

I disagree with the religion. Our religion is not the same as Hinduism.

But Hinduism is not a religion bro. I am talking about religion, not a made up umbrella term that covers all Indian religions.

why did it become the Guru's role to reveal what the Hindu scriptures said, to the Hindus. And why in Kalyug, the finalyug?

Because the human mind is born ignorant, agyani by birth. We never truly "get it", we lack gyan, and so those who "get it", who have gyan themselves, have to teach it to us. Those who "got it" in the past, those who had gyan wrote such scriptures. Those who "get it" today, refer to those scriptures to help people understand their message. They may even go on to write more scriptures.

Believe it or not, if you immerse yourself in Guru Granth Sahib and "get it", it becomes a piece of cake to understand other spiritual scriptures. Trust me I know it's possible. It's not easy however it is certainly possible. It requires effort and stepping out of the comfort zone into cognitive dissonance if need be. It requires intensity which needs to be cultivated.

Who's is this translation? What has the word ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ been translated as?

You should know what ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ means - nirvana. It's part and parcel of Kirtan. "Do kirtan and be in nirvana"

You are not doing kirtan properly if you are not in nirvana.

Nirvana, aside from Turiya state, means to enjoy the essence of whatever you are doing. This is most fundamental concept to eastern mysticism. So when you do kirtan and you enjoy it deeply. That's nirvana.

Was there an actual Pandit Keso Gopal at Guru JI's time?

Indeed, and as Guru Sahib was passing away this pandit probably read those Purans to him and the congregation. He did katha of it. Har Har katha parhey Puran jio.

He didn't read all Purans, you see, because there are different Puran for different religions. Remember that common ancestral thread that I was referring to earlier? He probably only read Puran which were part of that common thread.

What about now? Do we need this Pandit now?

Well Pandit Keso Gopal is no more. But we have other pandits - kathavachaks and granthis. Then there are nirmale as well, who are well versed in ancestral scriptures.

Without those who are well-versed in scripture, it would be super hard to learn it. The barrier of entry is low but understanding it is just another level of dedication.

Edited January 4, 2015 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

Just saw the presentation:

Attaching a good quality, loud speaker to your PC/laptop helps with the sound quality.

Satnam, you've done really well here. I found the presentation fascinating and informative.

I think one way we can help overcome the post Singh Sabha allergy to all things perceived as 'Hindu' is to use the more neutral term 'Indic'. As you've alluded to - it looks like our Guru placed no restriction on the source material for translation, commentary and discussion.

It is a shame that we've regressed so much in terms of our communities corporate intellectual development, due to political factors.

It's heartwarming to know that Guru ji spent serious time and resources in encouraging learning and discussion and what appears to be nothing less than critical thinking?

Keep up the good work and do share your findings with us, so we can all benefit from your research.

I'd LOVE to know more about the earliest Panj Sau Sakhi manuscript myself (amongst many other things!)

[chatanga1]

Because the human mind is born ignorant, agyani by birth. We never truly "get it", we lack gyan, and so those who "get it", who have gyan themselves, have to teach it to us. Those who "got it" in the past, those who had gyan wrote such scriptures. Those who "get it" today, refer to those scriptures to help people understand their message. They may even go on to write more scriptures.

Understood. But why was it Guru Ji's responsibility to teach the HIndus their scriptures, rather than the Hindus teaching it to themselves?

You should know what ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ means - nirvana. It's part and parcel of Kirtan. "Do kirtan and be in nirvana"

You are not doing kirtan properly if you are not in nirvana.

Nirvana, aside from Turiya state, means to enjoy the essence of whatever you are doing. This is most fundamental concept to eastern mysticism. So when you do kirtan and you enjoy it deeply. That's nirvana.

Nirvana is a state of mind, whether you do kirtan or not. You can be in Nirvana doing sewa, or work.

Indeed, and as Guru Sahib was passing away this pandit probably read those Purans to him and the congregation. He did katha of it. Har Har katha parhey Puran jio.

He didn't read all Purans, you see, because there are different Puran for different religions. Remember that common ancestral thread that I was referring to earlier? He probably only read Puran which were part of that common thread.

Which Puran was read? And why is this practice no longer followed?

Well Pandit Keso Gopal is no more. But we have other pandits - kathavachaks and granthis. Then there are nirmale as well, who are well versed in ancestral scriptures.

Without those who are well-versed in scripture, it would be super hard to learn it. The barrier of entry is low but understanding it is just another level of dedication.

You think Pandit Keso Gopal was an actual person?

[BhagatSingh]

Chatanga

Understood. But why was it Guru Ji's responsibility to teach the HIndus their scriptures, rather than the Hindus teaching it to themselves?

Again you have made the same mistake with this question that you did with the previous statement. You have lumped everyone together into one homogenous group. It's not one group, it's many different groups.

There are many many Indic religions. There is no such thing as Hinduism. And Hindu is not a set person. Hindu simply refers to anyone who does not belong to your religion.

Indic Religions

A - A calls B and C Hindus, they refer to themselves as Aist

B - B calls A and C Hindus, they refer to themselves as Bist

C - C calls A and B Hindus, they refer to themselves as Cist

You can see this in Bhagat Namdev ji's shabads and Bhagat Kabir ji's shabads where they refer to Hindus as a group separate from themselves. Both authors belong to the B religion, and are referring to followers A and C and followers B (who are not following Bism), when they use the word Hindu.

Non-Indic Religions

X - X, Y and Z refer to A, B and C as Hindus

Y

Z

Today this has changed with movements adopting and emphasizing a "Hindu" identity. And preaching to everyone to adopt it as well. And they have been successful to some degree. But this new way of thinking is a different religion in and of itself. Followers of religions A, B and C might not take this identity and may not agree with their principles and beliefs.

Nirvana is a state of mind, whether you do kirtan or not. You can be in Nirvana doing sewa, or work.

That's what I said. Any other questions?

Which Puran was read?

I would guess the Puran associated with Hari.

Har Har katha parhey Puran jio

And why is this practice no longer followed?

Back then it was part of the orthodoxy, even the authors of Pothi Mala literature like Dasam Granth, used to do katha of it. Today this practice is followed outside of the orthodox circles.

(There are also other practices like offering ashes to the river in Haridwar that were pretty common back then and are still followed outside the Orthodoxy)

So a better question would be why isn't this practiced in the orthodox circles today?

Short Answer: Singh Sabha, Taboo, 1984

You think Pandit Keso Gopal was an actual person?

Yes and No

Question: Couldn't the author be talking about Krishna instead of a real person when he says Keso Gopal?

Answer: This is possible since Keso (Kesho, Keshav) and Gopal are the names of Krishna.

However, it is also possible that "Keso Gopal" is referring to a specific person.

"Keso", "Keshav" and "Gopal", are all used separately and appear quite often in Guru Granth Sahib.

However the phrase "Keso Gopal" only appears once in Guru Granth Sahib, and the phrases "Keshav Gopal", "Gopal Keshav" and "Gopal Keso" never appear in Guru Granth Sahib.

"Keso Gopal" is a one time usage and for that reason I think it could be a specific person.

The Freed Kote Teeka also thinks this a specific person named Keso Gopal rather than Krishna. When in doubt, I go with this puratan teeka.

Regardless of that, the meaning of the shabad does not change. Either way one Pandit, Keso Gopal, or a random/many Pandit(s) that worship(s) Keso Gopal, are being called to read the Puran. Keso Gopal Pandit Sadeoh Har Har katha parhey Puran jio.

[amardeep]

Thank you for all your comments. I hope you appreciated the short presentation

[BhagatSingh]

Amardeep
It sounded like you were holding back lol. I feel like there is much more you wanted to say.

[amardeep]

In the presentation I covered most topics of my research so far. But only had 20 minutes...Most of the other material is basically details on each of the topics.

Edited May 24, 2015 by amardeep

[BhagatSingh]

Have you thought about making more videos on this topic?

[amardeep]

Not at the moment. But if I ever do a similiar speech i'll make sure to record it.

In the talk I did'n cover:

- The traces of Anandpuri litterature in the current Damdami Taksal Rehit Maryada

- The attempts of the Patiala Kings in "reviving" some of the lost literature of Anandpur

- How later scholars and history books are linked to and influenced by the court poets of Anandpur etc.

If you are interested in the subject as a whole see Pyara SIngh Padam's book Guru Gobind Singh ji de darbari rattan. It can be read for free on Punjab Digital Library. Best book on the subject!

Edited May 25, 2015 by amardeep