paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Bhai Bala either did not exist or was a very minor character as proved without doubt by Prof Sahib Singh in 'aad bir barey'. There is reference to Baba Bala jee in Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth by Mahakavi Santokh Singh jee, who lived before Prof. Sahib Singh's birth. We also have Bhai Bala Janamsakhis. Anyways, this is off-topic. Pyara Padam was an author who lived in the second part of the 20th century, how are you using him as a reference point? He lived during time of Gurbachan, Kartar Singh and thus was influenced by their lies. So according to you, Pyara Singh jee Padam was influenced by so-called lies, but Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, who did not believe in Sri Raagmala Sahib as Gurbanee (not a Sikh, according to me) was the greatest historian. No one is denying that Gurbani santheaa schools existed but whether DDT existed in some form with the exact lineage as mentioned? I doubt that. You said this: Quote Some of the so called past 'chiefs' of your DDT are either Nihangs, Sevapanthis, Nirmalas or Udasis even but not Taksali. Unquote So, even if DDT jathedars were connected with Nihangs (like Akali Shaheed Baba Deep SIngh jee), Sevapanthis (like Srimaan Shaheed Baba Mani Singh jee), Nirmalay (like Bhai saab Bhai Pyaray Daya Singh jee), the fact remains the same. DDT traces its roots back to the tenth master. Even in 20th century, Sant Kirpal Singh jee, was the jathedar of Amritsari taksaal and Sevapanthi sect, at the same time. Taksaal just means a school, where high level learning is imparted. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 10, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 So, even if DDT jathedars were connected with Nihangs (like Akali Shaheed Baba Deep SIngh jee), Sevapanthis (like Srimaan Shaheed Baba Mani Singh jee), Nirmalay (like Bhai saab Bhai Pyaray Daya Singh jee), the fact remains the same. DDT traces its roots back to the tenth master. So then using that line of thinking any Jatha can do the same!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) So then using that line of thinking any Jatha can do the same!! How? Please provide an example. Nanaksar sect is a good example, that does not go back directly like DDT. Please see below. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 10, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Because every sect had members at some point that associated with other groups that eventually trace back. So every sect has its origins from same one point. There was only one Khalsa. Every one since came from same origin! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Both parties please give their closing statement on this thread so we can close this thread and move on. Life is too short on arguing over semantics on order/sect origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Satkirin sees the truth because her mind is not conditioned to justify everything one individual or sect says, people like Papiman are ready to go against Gurbani to defend their Baba. Sad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Because every sect had members at some point that associated with other groups that eventually trace back. So every sect has its origins from same one point. There was only one Khalsa. Every one since came from same origin! In the same way, one can say that people who disbelieve in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee (utter blasphemy), also trace back their origin to Maharaaj. What will we do then? In conclusion, DDT does trace back its roots to tenth master, just as Sevapanthis, Nihangs, Nirmalay do. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) 1. Bhai Nabha is the greatest historian we've had because he believed in research and not fairy tales as read in old books. Gurbachan Singh read anything, believed it and then told those fairy tales to his already brainwashed chelas. 2. Bala existed but he was not that important (to the point that scholars like Prof Sahib Singh argue whether he existed), he did not go any udasis with Guru, nor is he of any historical importance and thus did need no mention in Vaaran Gurdaas. 3. If the Taksal with 14 Jathedar lineage was so important then this lineage must have been preserved atleast SOMEWHERE in history, but alas every historical book is silent on this great lineage going back to the Gurus and Mahan Sikhs like Baba Deep Singh. 4. Taksal is just another sect who is not the sole authority on Gurbani or Sikhi because they have so many flaws in their books and sochni. They are indirectly attacking Bhagats, Nagar Keertan concept and Bani saying chant Gods name while walking. How are they different to Missionaries? Edited May 10, 2015 by SikhKhoj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Satkirin sees the truth because her mind is not conditioned to justify everything one individual or sect says, people like Papiman are ready to go against Gurbani to defend their Baba. Sad. I will try to defend my Baba (Baba Guru Nanak), by his grace. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Khalsa jee, don't listen to Manmukhs or people who disbelieve in Gurbani. Try to preserve our history, values and ethics, from attack by non-believers. Only follow Gurmat, otherwise it is possible one day, some new scholars might start saying that even gurus did not exist. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 10, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 In conclusion, DDT does trace back its roots to tenth master, just as Sevapanthis, Nihangs, Nirmalay do. Thanks bro, My closing statement on this thread would be. Whilst ddt does trace back its root to tenth Guru. It cannot claim they are without outside order influence or have unbroken lineage - they are sub lineage of nirmale order-girvir samaprda(ask kam1825 for more clarification) started by sri guru gobind singh ji just like rara sahib, harkhowale samparda are sub lineage (upsamparda) of nirmale- bhai dya singh samparda. There are 24 upsamparda's (sub sections of two major nirmale order which was started by sri guru gobind singh ji when they sent five singhs to kansi)-These two major nirmale order was formally started by Bhai Dya Singh Ji And Bhai Dharam Singh Ji under guidance of sri guru gobind singh ji.24 upsamparada's/sub-section of Nirmala exist today all came from- Bhai Dya Singh Ji (13 sub sections) and Bhai Dharam Singh Ji (11 sub sections).For eg- From bha dya singh ji you have- rara sahib samparda, hoti mardan samparda, harkhowal samparda etc- Similarly from Bhai dharam singh ji you have 11 sub branches.With regards to finding out more about the different sampardas i suggest you read, Sikh Sampardavali by Piara Singh Padam, Bharat Mat Darpan by Mahant Ganesha Ji and the Mahan Kosh by Bhai Kahan Singh NabhaAlso see an glimpse beautiful pictorial form of nirmale order - please see attached to understand further 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 I have a quick question.. Do you know what year bhai daya Singh and bhai dharam Singh went to kanshi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Your Gurbachan says in his book Guru Har rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11 or so. which book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 In the same way, one can say that people who disbelieve in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee (utter blasphemy), also trace back their origin to Maharaaj. What will we do then? In conclusion, DDT does trace back its roots to tenth master, just as Sevapanthis, Nihangs, Nirmalay do. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh And so does AKJ And so does SGPC etc. Because at some point the members that started EVERY sect had association with other members, etc who trace back... like I said ALL Sikhs, ALL Khalsa originated from the same one event in 1699. Guru Ji created the Khalsa... he did not create sects or taksals etc. Conclusion: GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji created ONE KHALSA. NOT SECTS! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 As early as 1979, one eminent Sikh scholar, Prof.Trilochan Singh (1919-1993) who was involved in UNESCO publication ‘Sacred writings of the Sikhs’, saw through the lies of Baba Kartar Singh Samparda Chowk Mehta: ‘To carry the distortion further, the Bhindrawaley Taksal now claims to be the spiritual descendants of ‘Damdami Taksal’ (Spiritual lineage of interpreters of Adi Guru Granth) of Baba Dip Singh, although all the followers of Baba Dip Singh and Baba Gurbaksh Singh died to the last man for the sanctity of the Golden Temple. They left no successor. Sant Sundar Singh founder of Bhindrawaley Taksal was student of Sant Gulab Singh, a Nirmala Saint and actually belonged to the Amritsali Taksal. I had the opportunity to meet Sant Inder Singh, brother of Sant Sundar Singh many times and got first-hand material about the Saints life from Sant Gurbachan Singh. Sant Inder Singh died at the age of 104.’ ‘The Turban And Sword Of Sikhs, Prof.Trilochan Singh, Pa.390 This is a c and p from Niddar Singh's website. He is hardly noted for his honesty and affection towards DDT. although all the followers of Baba Dip Singh and Baba Gurbaksh Singh died to the last man for the sanctity of the Golden Temple. There was no Golden Temple in Baba Ji's time. I had the opportunity to meet Sant Inder Singh, brother of Sant Sundar Singh many times and got first-hand material about the Saints life from Sant Gurbachan Singh. Sant Inder Singh died at the age of 104.’ ‘The Turban And Sword Of Sikhs, Prof.Trilochan Singh, Pa.390 Inder Singh themselves were part of the faction that denied Kartar Singh his legitimate place even though Sant Gurbachan Singh stated it at 3 different times, once on audio. Inder Singh supported Sant Mohan Singh, so it's hardly a credible source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji created ONE KHALSA. NOT SECTS! what happened to your last post effort? thought you had gone. Kinda hoping you had after reading this post. Try reading history without your arrogance and you might learn something. You are new to Sikhi but make assertions as if you are the only who knows how to read. Samprdayes with Guru Thapia are not sects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 what happened to your last post effort? thought you had gone. Kinda hoping you had after reading this post. Try reading history without your arrogance and you might learn something. You are new to Sikhi but make assertions as if you are the only who knows how to read. Samprdayes with Guru Thapia are not sects. I'm not the one being arrogant...read the Gurmat Rehet Maryada and what it says about females... then you will see arrogance... It can't possibly be what Guru Ji would have wanted for women. I know this deep inside. And other members like a few who PMd me saying they do not believe DDTs position on women, and SikhKhoj convinced me to stay. And if you think roughly 21 years is considered 'new' to Sikhi... okay... whatever... I started to read SGGSJ and study SIkhi since I was 18 and I am 39 now. I think I may actually have been studying it for longer than Paapiman has been alive... I am just guessing but judging by his posts / how he thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 And other members like a few who PMd me saying they do not believe DDTs position on women, and SikhKhoj convinced me to stay. well I'm asking you to go away. not hiding over the pm . Just to your face. You gave it so much drama but a pm or two and you're backtracking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 And if you think roughly 21 years is considered 'new' to Sikhi... okay... whatever... I started to read SGGSJ and study SIkhi since I was 18 and I am 39 now. 21 years. You know I honestly feel bad about that now. Because what you are saying here doesn't befit 21 years of study. It really doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 It does if you step outside of one group and look at Sikhi with an open mind and apprach to Gurbani looking from all directions! Not just sticking to one person or group's interpretation who might have had an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 And so does AKJ And so does SGPC etc. Because at some point the members that started EVERY sect had association with other members, etc who trace back... like I said ALL Sikhs, ALL Khalsa originated from the same one event in 1699. Guru Ji created the Khalsa... he did not create sects or taksals etc. Conclusion: GURU GOBIND SINGH Ji created ONE KHALSA. NOT SECTS! You did not answer the question. Read my post again. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) I'm not the one being arrogant...read the Gurmat Rehet Maryada and what it says about females... then you will see arrogance... It can't possibly be what Guru Ji would have wanted for women. I know this deep inside. There is nothing against females in Gurmat Rehat Maryada. A Gursikh son, even if he is spiritually higher than his mother, will keep bowing to her mother; in the same way, a Gursikh wife, even if she is spiritually higher than her husband, will keep bowing to her Gursikh husband. These are Sikh ethics and values. Mother (female) is also considered as the first guru of a child, not father (male). In addition to that, it is a fact that women play a greater role in the birth of a child. Therefore, in Gurmat, optimum respect is given to both the genders. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 10, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Topic is now closed. Please pm me if you have any new information on ddt origin. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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