paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) In conclusion, bowing to someone out of respect is not against Gurmat. If a person, does not like to bow, rather likes to say only fateh, it is his/her wish. The intention is the key. One's intentions must be good and clear of any mischief. According to Gurmat Maryada: A son bows to his mother, out of respect. A wife bows to her husband, out of respect. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) In conclusion, bowing to someone out of respect is not against Gurmat. If a person, does not like to bow, rather likes to say only fateh, it is his/her wish. The intention is the key. One's intentions must be good and clear of any mischief. According to Gurmat Maryada: A son bows to his mother, out of respect. A wife bows to her husband, out of respect. Waheguru jee kaa KhalsaWaheguru jee kee FatehAnd if bowing is done at all... a husband should also bow to his wife out of respect then as well Otherwise the marriage is not on equal level and she will be seen as being beneath him.How can something be "Gurmat" if it teaches something against what SGGSJ says about husband and wife being one soul in two bodies? That pretty much itierates it right there... that they are equal to the point of being ONE single unit. Would someone bow to themselves?And what exactly do you consider to be Gurmat Paapiman? What DDT says? Or what SGGSJ says? I go by SGGSJ and there is no such thing in 'Gurmat' saying the wife is beneath the husband and has to pay him more respect than he gives her. SGGSJ says they are equal partners both deserving of the same respect from each other.THAT'S true Gurmat... not some man made rules by one 'taksal'.Having one partner bow to the other and calling it Gurmat is essentially saying that Sikhi teaches a heirarchal ranking in marriage with the wife ever below the husband. And this is wrong.EDIT: The fact that Paapiman is so wound up over men being bowed to by women, I don't think anyone would willingly enter into that kind of relationship with him! Especially a Gursikh girl, because that attitude shows Ego. Edited May 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) And if bowing is done at all... a husband should also bow to his wife out of respect then as well Otherwise the marriage is not on equal level and she will be seen as being beneath him. How can something be "Gurmat" if it teaches something against what SGGSJ says about husband and wife being one soul in two bodies? That pretty much itierates it right there... that they are equal to the point of being ONE single unit. Would someone bow to themselves? And what exactly do you consider to be Gurmat Paapiman? What DDT says? Or what SGGSJ says? I go by SGGSJ and there is no such thing in 'Gurmat' saying the wife is beneath the husband and has to pay him more respect than he gives her. SGGSJ says they are equal partners both deserving of the same respect from each other. THAT'S true Gurmat... not some man made rules by one 'taksal'. Having one partner bow to the other and calling it Gurmat is essentially saying that Sikhi teaches a heirarchal ranking in marriage with the wife ever below the husband. And this is wrong. Gurmat/Sikh Maryada cannot change. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 In an Anand karaj ceremony, a wife is told to hold the pala of her husband. It is not, the other way round. Also, a man always starts first when going around SSGGSJM. In Hinduism (correct me if I am wrong), 4 times, a male starts first and then they switch for the last 3. Even, then 4 is greater than 3. What will you say now? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh You did not answer the above?? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Gurmat Maryada cannot change. Waheguru jee kaa KhalsaWaheguru jee kee FatehDoesn't make Gurmat Rehet Maryada the correct one. It's only the views of those who follow it, and only applicable to those who are bound by it (DDT et al) which are not in the majority.I am bound by Sikh Rehet Maryada. Which doesn't have this heirarchal description of marriage... it has marriage on equal level between husband and wife, so that both partners feel fufilled and included. Marriage is not just about pleasing the man (or his Ego) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Doesn't make Gurmat Rehet Maryada the correct one. It's only the views of those who follow it, and only applicable to those who are bound by it (DDT et al) which are not in the majority. I am bound by Sikh Rehet Maryada. Which doesn't have this heirarchal description of marriage... it has marriage on equal level between husband and wife, so that both partners feel fufilled and included. Marriage is not just about pleasing the man (or his Ego) You can follow the Missionary/sgpc RM. DDT RM is the maryada of the tenth master. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Just to be the devils advocate What if both are not the prescribe Rehit maryada of what the guru wanted? What if what the guru wanted is something completely different? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 So Paapiman YOU say DDT RM is direct from the tenth Master? I thought Guru JI created the Khalsa... and possibly 52 Hukams... but not Reher Maryadas (which at the time were not even referred to as Rehet Maryada but as Rhetnamas)?? I like how you slyly put in there afterward that statement just to try to make me feel inadquate for following SRM as if the one you follow is the correct.Guru Ji would never have had women bowing to men in subordination. End of discussion. It goes against Gurbani. Why would Guru Ji advocate for women equality and include in SGGSJ that men and women are equal, but then tell women... oh sorry you're equal but not really so you have to bow down to men in submission because they are above you and you are supposed to see them as God. But they don't have to see you as God...because you are beneath men.That does NOT make any sense what-so-ever!!!And if it is, then Sikhi is just paying lip service with respect to equlity just like every other religion, and Truthseeker had a very valid point when he pointed this out.I believe the closest we have to an actual RM from Guru Ji himself was the 52 Hukams. And 52 Hukams makes no difference between males and females in it's instruction. Rehtnammas made by humans - not a single one - would have been Guru Ji's exact words (or even wishes) as they were ALL interpreted based upon the views of the one who wrote them! No RM is perfect and no RM can ever be perfect for that reason. One person (human) can not speak for the entire Sikh panth. It doesn't matter whether they lived close to the time of Guru Ji or not! It's still THEIR (one person's) interpretation of things based on their own thoughts and culture at the time.At least SRM was created with input from many different groups / jathas etc. including DDT.End of discussion... Guru Ji taught equality and would NOT have put wives beneath men in some heirarchal ranking where she has to degrade herself while inflating her husband's ego. If it was TRULY just about respect, then a simple 'thank you' and Gurfateh would suffice to show you respect that person. And respect would not be only a one way street from one partner to the other. Because that kind of marriage would have one partner (the wife) feeling unfufilled, lower in status, inadequate, inferior, while the husband feels superior, privelaged, above his wife. THAT is not how marriage should be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Just to be the devils advocate What if both are not the prescribe Rehit maryada of what the guru wanted? What if what the guru wanted is something completely different? Do you have a doubt on DDT RM? Doubts are very bad, when it comes to spirituality. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 At least SRM was created with input from many different groups / jathas etc. including DDT. Can you please provide proof? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Doesn't make Gurmat Rehet Maryada the correct one. It's only the views of those who follow it, and only applicable to those who are bound by it (DDT et al) which are not in the majority. Majority is not always right. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 In an Anand karaj ceremony, a wife is told to hold the pala of her husband. It is not, the other way round. Also, a man always starts first when going around SSGGSJM. In Hinduism (correct me if I am wrong), 4 times, a male starts first and then they switch for the last 3. Even, then 4 is greater than 3. What will you say now? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Where is your answer??? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 So Paapiman YOU say DDT RM is direct from the tenth Master? I thought Guru JI created the Khalsa... and possibly 52 Hukams... but not Reher Maryadas (which at the time were not even referred to as Rehet Maryada but as Rhetnamas)?? I like how you slyly put in there afterward that statement just to try to make me feel inadquate for following SRM as if the one you follow is the correct. Have you read the puratan rehatnamay? Do you know what they say about women? Would you like to know, what they say about women? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Where is your answer??? Waheguru jee kaa KhalsaWaheguru jee kee FatehWho is in control... the horse or the rider in the chariot? The anand karaj issue haha I still laugh at it.. you are trying to suggest it's to show inequality??You DO know that if they walked side by side, one would be further away from Guru Ji. Someone has to start off... some couples have actually done 2 lavans with man leading and 2 with woman leading. But in reality... NOBODY IS LEADING! IT'S A BLOODY CIRCLE!!!! Go further around the cirle and who is in front of him?? His wife! I suppose they could stand side by side and shuffle around together sideways... but that would be just awkward.I cant believe you are still trying to find things to prove your point of female submission and subordination to men. It's LAUGHABLE!!! Are you THAT Egotistical that you think your penis gives you some God given right over women???If that's all it takes, gee why don't all the women go get penises sewn on surgically!You yourself stated outside of procreation the sex organs mean nothing (because sex is only done to have kids) So outside of the actual sex act, there is no difference. A few minor physical differences in function thats it. Having a penis is not some trophy that gives you the right to be superior to women.This is almost ridiculous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 You DO know that if they walked side by side, one would be further away from Guru Ji. Someone has to start off... some couples have actually done 2 lavans with man leading and 2 with woman leading. That is against Gurmat. Man leads in all four lavans. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Who is in control... the horse or the rider in the chariot? The anand karaj issue haha I still laugh at it.. you are trying to suggest it's to show inequality?? In that sense, rider is in control, while horse is just an animal. Therefore, according to that, women are in control and man is like an animal, controlled by a woman -- this is against Gurmat again (even according to you, as you believe in equality - don't contradict yourself). Bad example. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) In that sense, rider is in control, while horse is just an animal. Therefore, according to that, women are in control and man is like an animal, controlled by a woman -- this is against Gurmat again (even according to you, as you believe in equality - don't contradict yourself). Bad example. Waheguru jee kaa KhalsaWaheguru jee kee FatehOh but its ok to suggest the women is like an animal under control of the man??? Isn't that THE SAME THING???? Edited May 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Oh but its ok to suggest the women is like an animal under control of the man??? Isn't that THE SAME THING???? I never compared a woman to an animal, but you compared a male to a horse. You contradicted yourself. First, talking about equality and then giving a bad example, portraying a man as an animal. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Who is in control... the horse or the rider in the chariot? The anand karaj issue haha I still laugh at it.. you are trying to suggest it's to show inequality?? Everyone is the same, only in the eyes of God and Brahamgyani. For them, there is no difference between a man, woman, dog, ant, etc All normal beings should follow maryada. It is very easy to talk like a Brahamgyani, but very hard to walk the talk. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Do you have a doubt on DDT RM? Doubts are very bad, when it comes to spirituality. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee FatehIm being a devils advocate... What if the guru prescribed something else? What if the nihang Rehit is what the guru wanted or the Nanaksar Rehit etc? HOW are you so sure that of it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Paapiman... if all are equal then answer my question... why would a wife bow to her husband who is her equal?He's not in a position of authority over her (you stated this already)He's not in control of her (you just stated this)She is not in submission or subjection to him (you already stated this)You stated it's to show respect. Please answer my question finally:What has the husband done to deserve her respect, that she wouldn't have deserved the same respect from him??If all are equal... you just admitted above... then why would one prostrate the other? Why would the wife see her husband as God, while he would not also see her as God?Gurbani says:Page 20, Line 8ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4||One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||^^^^^Telling only the wife to see that light in her husband and to bow to him as God, while not also telling the hssband to see that light in his wife and to bow to her as God, goes against the above ^^^^^So who do we follow??? Rehet Maryadas that we can never be truly sure of?? Or SGGSJ??? You seem to want to go with GRM no matter what.. even when contradictions like the above are pointed out right to you!What if Singh123456777 is correct? What if all the rehets we have nobody can be sure what Guru JI actually wanted... you are free to think your own interpretations but you should not force them on others by saying the one YOU choose to follow is the direct word of Guru Ji.All I am saying is that no single person should speak for the entire panth. Rhetnammas created by individuals way back then, were still not infallible. They were based on interpretation of ONE person and that one persons thoughts and beliefs and influence from current society and culture.SRM was at least an attempt to unify the panth. No DDT would never get 100% of what they want in it... and my observation is that they will never agree on anything unless it's their full GRM as is that is accepted. But many many people, not just me... question DDTs interpretations of what a wife should be... or her status in relation to men.Now please stop skirting the question! You just admitted everyone is equal... then why would a wife prostrate to her husband? You said it was not to show submission or subjection (which were my observations of why it was commanded) you asdmitted he is not in authority over her, and you said it was for showing 'respect'. So my question is and PLEASE ANSWER THIS (not with another question...)WHY WOULD THE HUSBAND BE MORE DESERVING OF RESPECT FROM HIS WIFE, THAN SHE IS FROM HIM? WHY WOULD THEY NOT SHOW EACH OTHER MUTUAL RESPECT?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Im being a devils advocate... What if the guru prescribed something else? What if the nihang Rehit is what the guru wanted or the Nanaksar Rehit etc? HOW are you so sure that of it? Bro, I don't think I said that DDT is the only approved RM (I apologize if I did). DDT is one of the approved ones. Obviously, Nanaksar and Nihang Maryadas are also right. I don't want to comment on the so-called SRM and AKJ maryada. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Paapiman... if all are equal then answer my question... why would a wife bow to her husband who is her equal? Why would a son bow to a mother, if they are equal? Simple answer to both, your and my question - Gurmat Maryada. We are NOT Brahamgyanis I think we are wasting time, by going around in a circle. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) I don't want to comment on the so-called SRM and AKJ maryada. Waheguru jee kaa KhalsaWaheguru jee kee Fateh^^^ case in point.Btw the only APPROVED RM by Akal Takht is the SRM... you DO know this right???Gurmat Rehet Maryada is not the be all end all and is not followed by marjoity of Sikhs... so basically your asnwer is... women must bow to their husbands because.......DDT says so!!! LOL And no other good... reason no reason that actually goes back to Sikhi or Gurbani.That answers my question... it is the male chauvenism built into DDT putting women into some position beneath men. Men thinking their penis is enough reason to deserve someone prostrating them as a subordinate.If you cant show me in actual Gurbani why, or even explain to me why.... other than to only say "GRM says so" then you really are brainwashed. Edited May 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) ^^^ case in point. Btw the only APPROVED RM by Akal Takht is the SRM... you DO know this right??? The 'Akal Takht', which is indirectly controlled by Punjab government? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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