Brahmanization Of Sikhi / Sects? This Is Perhaps Why We Should Unite?

[CdnSikhGirl]

Original Found Here:

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/?p=450

What do you make of this?

There is a Punjabi saying that falsehood comes out breaking walls (jhooth kandhan paar paar ke bahar aunda). From the false accusation and propaganda against Sardar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana in the article The Great Deception by Randhir Singh of Connecticut on the Web (www.sikhsentinel.com), it is glaringly evident that he is not a Sikh, but a Rashtri-Sikh [1] like Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba or a mouthpiece of Bipran brigade [2].

Randhir Singh, you may think that you can hide your identity, but you cant, as the stench of falsehood is oozing out of you like a rotten egg. It is the same stench that comes out of Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba and mouthpieces of Bipran brigade. Randhir Singh, a Sikh doesnt accuse anyone without verifying the facts. How dare you accuse Kala Afgahana of distortion of Sikhism without reading his books? If you have read his books, you wouldnt have quoted all the references wrongly? There is no mention of the issues you raised in your article on pages 35, 33-35, 33, 31 and 38-39 of Bipran Kee Reet Ton Sach Da Marg, Vol. 6.

Gurbani teaches us, Dont denigrate anyone and argue with an ignorant person (AGGS, M, 1, p 473). It seems that you havent read Kala Afgahanas books, therefore, it is an exercise in futility to argue with you about his writings. However, your article may have mislead the ignorant and gullible, so a rejoinder is a must and here it is:First, Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) is the only authentic source of Sikhi the teachings of Sikh Gurus. Unlike other religious scriptures of the world, the Gurbani (sacred hymns) enshrined in AGGS is the Divine revelation recorded by the Gurus themselves, and only those compositions of Bhagats and Saints were added that were compatible with the teachings of Guru Nanak. Moreover, the authenticity of the hymns of AGGS was confirmed twice, first when Guru Arjan prepared the Aad Granth and second when Guru Gobind Singh prepared the Damdami Bir (Dasam Patshah Da Granth) by incorporating his father, Guru Teg Bahadars hymns into the hymns of Aad Granth. The current volume of AGGS published by SGPC [3] is a copy of Dadami Bir. Therefore, all other writings about Sikhism, does not matter who wrote them must be tested on the touchstone of AGGS. If any peace of writing is not compatible with the teachings of AGGS, it cant be considered Sikh literature. Kala Afghana is saying the same thing what I have said in this paragraph. Can anyone tell me in what manner Kala Afgahana is harming Sikhism by emphasizing this aspect of Gurbani in his writings?

Second, Gurbani teaches us, Use wisdom and reason in the worship of God and the practice of charity. One learns by intelligent reading and earns respect by wisdom. (AGGS, M 1, p 1245.). So, what sin Kala Afgahana has committed if he is adhering to Gurus advice faithfully? Is it his fault that those who criticize him dont understand the teachings of AGGS?

Third, so far no scholar of Sikhism from Guru Nanak Dev University, Punjabi University or any other Indian or foreign university or any other genuine scholar has found fault with Kala Afghanas writings. However, he has been severely criticized by criminals (jrayam peshawars), idiots (ujjads), morons (dhutas) and rude persons (burshas), who are masquerading as Sikhs in Amritdhari disguise. Kala Afghanas only fault is that he has exposed these hypocrites and their shops of falsehood and whoredom, where they fleece the ignorant and gullible and rape the innocent.

Fourth, I have come to know Kala Afghana only through his writings. I have written a review article on his writings. So for no body has found fault with that article. I have met Kala Afgahana only twice so for. It is a false and malicious propaganda by devious people that Kala Afghana is against the baptism of Khande Di Pahul started by Guru Gobind Singh on the Vaisakhi day of 1699 to establish the Khalsa Order. For example, both Kala Afghana and his wife are Amritdhari. How many Sikh couples in the world are Amritdhari? Kala Afghana has been Amritdhari since his high school days. Moreover, his son and son-in-laws, who are living in the West are full-fledged kesadhari Sikhs, where most of the Sikhs of Jat background are clean-shaven. Kala Afgahana encourages young Sikhs to be proud of their heritage and to keep beards and Kes (head hair). When I was with him in Long Island, some young people came to see him. It seemed as if one young man had a trimmed beard, Kala Afghana remaked, Son it is Gurus gift to remind you who you are, dont disgrace yourself (beta eh guru di mohar ha, be-adbi na kar).

Fifth, yes, Kala Afgahana does criticize the fake Amritdharis, who have maligned, the valiant and noble Order of Khalsa the saint-soldiers and the embodiment of Sikh virtues. The fake Amritdharis have not only played havoc with the life of Sikhs in India, but also have besmirched the name of the vibrant and enterprising overseas Sikh community. They are behind most the fights for the control over Gudwaras. They not only fight in courts but also inside the Gurdwaras in front of AGGS with swords and guns, as they are not satisfied with fistfights and taking off each others turbans. They dont even spare women and children. When the local and national newspapers flash the fighting scene on the front pages with banner headlines Sikhs fighting with swords in their place of worship, the entire Sikh community hangs its heads in disgust, humiliation and shame. The criminal behavior of such brutes has disgusted most of the Sikhs, especially children, who have stopped going to the Gurdwaras. Bewildered children often ask, Who are these people who fight in Gurdwaras. Are they Sikhs? No, dear children, they represent the remnant of dark ages or the missing link for whom the evolutionists are looking for.

Sixth, yes, Kala Afghana criticizes the fake Amritdharis of Damdami Taksal. It is an established fact that Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala died while fighting. However, the current head of Damdami Taksal, successor to Bhindranwala, Baba Thakar Singh keeps insisting that Bhidranwala is well and alive enjoying life. Whom is he fooling? Isnt he rolling the honor of Bhindranwala in mud? For whom is he working? Didnt he bestow a Siropa on K. P. S. Gill [4]?

Seventh, yes, Kala Afghana has exposed fake Amritdharis like Bhai Randhir Singh and his followers, who are modern day Brahmans. Bhai Randhir Singh ignored Guru Nanaks counsel regarding meat eating and wrote a book against meat eating while distorting Gurbani. Sikhs who ignore Gurus advice are not Sikhs, but Bemukhs.

Foolish people quarrel over the merit of partaking flesh because they do not have the knowledge and understanding of what constitutes flesh or vegetables as both come from the living species. The eating of which, vegetable or flesh constitutes sin? (Why the eating of flesh is sinful and not the eating of vegetables? Does the sin lie in taking the animal life or eating animal flesh? The Universal Spirit is present in all forms of life). O Pundit, you dont know how flesh is produced? Water is the source of life. It is water that produces grains, sugarcane, cotton and all forms of life (AGGS, M, 1, p 1289).

Guru Angad Dev has emphasized the same point in the following verses.He, Who created life in water also provides the sustenance for it. There, one form of life depends on another form of life as food (AGGS, M, 2, p 955).

Moreover, Guru Nanak advises us that one should avoid the consumption of any food or substance, which has deleterious effects on mind and health. This includes alcohol, intoxicants, drugs and smoking.

Dear sir, that diet is unhealthy whose consumption is injurious to the body and mind (AGGS, M, 1, p 16).

Besides, Randhir Singhs followers preach that one, who has taken baptism from them, should inter-dine only with those, who have been baptised by them. Isnt it a repudiation of Gurbani? Do these people qualify to be called Sikhs? Moreover, they vehemently opposed the decision of SGPC to publish AGGS by separating the words in a sentence. In the old version all the words of a sentence were continuously written. It was very difficult to read the old version of AGGS. Only people educated in seminaries (dera, fyrw) could read them fluently and coherently. The Granthis (priests) were trained in seminaries. But now people, who can read Punjabi in Gumukhi script, can read the current volume of AGGS without difficulty. I can vividly remember that people with M. A. in Punjabi had difficulty in reading the old volume. I think it was an enlightened decision taken by SGPC. However, followers of Randhir Singh dont recognize the modern version of AGGS, they use the old version.

How come those who, criticize Kala Afgahnas writings without any sound reason, are dead silent about the activities of Damdami Taksal and the cult of Randhir Singh? It is quite obvious, they all work for the same master, who wants to undermine Sikhism by destroying its uniqueness and independent identity through subversion.

Eighth, yes, Kala Afgahna denounces fake Amritdhari Khalistanis, like Jagjit Singh Chauhan and Sohan Singh Boparai, who participated in the genocide of Sikhs during the last two decades. Sikhs and human rights organizations justifiably hold the central Indian Governments, the Congress Party and the Akalis responsible for the bloodbath of Sikhs in which over 200,000 people were killed, thousands of women were dishonored, thousands were widowed, thousands were orphaned, thousands were tortured and imprisoned, and billions of dollars of economic loss to the Sikh community. However, the role of Damdami Taksal in this carnage has escaped the notice of the Sikhs. For example, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindanwala used to call baptized youth as his bombs [5], an abominable perversion of the concept of saint-soldier? While he used to urge these bombs to destroy the enemy (gaddi chra deo), Baba Thakur Singh used to honor police officials like K. P. S. Gill who not only destroyed the bombs but also killed thousands of innocent young men [4]. Finding the Sikhs in disarray, Giani Puran Singh declared Sikhs as the progeny of mythical Lav and Kush, sons of mythical god Sri Ram Chandarji. And Joginder Singh Vedanti and Principal Amarjit Singh translated Gurbilas Patshahi 6 into Punjabi with the sole purpose of using it for the exposition of Sikhism, in spite of the fact that this book distorts, Sikh theology, Sikh history, maligns Guru Har Gobind Sahibs character, and is full of Puranic tales. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, Baba Thakur Singh, Giani Puran Singh and Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti were taught and trained by a con man, a wicked manipulator, Sriman Panth-Rattan Vidya Martand Sant Giani Gubachan Singh Ji Khalsa, Bhindranwale.[Jat machla Khuda nu lai gai choar (There is no limit to a Jats pretensions and immorality)]. Note the number of epithets this con man used for him and he had no compunction in calling himself Vidya Martand (the Sun of Knowledge) [6]. Damdami Taksal is like the Hindalias also known as Niranjanias, who were the bitter enemies of Sikhs and Sikhism [7]. They were the ones who distorted Guru Nanaks biography by composing Bhai Bala Janamsakhi.

Why those, who criticize Kala Afghana, havent uttered a single word of protest against fake Khailstanis and Damdami Taksal, who have done incalculable harm to Sikhs and Sikhism? Is it that Kala Afghanas critics cult of Bhai Randhir Singh, fake Khalistanis and Damdami Taksal are one and the same people? Ninth, the National Council of Education Research and Training (NCERT) of India has been publishing high school history books containing distortion of Sikhism with derogatory remarks about Sikh Gurus.

Why havent the critics of Kala Afghanas writings taken any notice of history books published by NCERT? Is it because they cant read? Why dont they protest against this odious scheme to subvert Sikhism? Is it because the master who is responsible for distorting Sikhism in history books is the same one who pulls the strings of the puppets, who are thirsty for Kala Afghanas blood?

Tenth, it is also a false and malicious propaganda that Kala Afghana is against the Reht Maryda (Code of Conduct) approved by the SGCP. Like any Sikh who understands Gurbani correctly, Kala Afghana also feels that there are some flaws in the current Reht Maryda and it should be revised by the corporate body of Sikhs according the teachings of Aad Guru Granth Sahib. However, in the meantime the current Rehat Maryda should adopted by all Gurdwaras and Sikh organizations. Last year at a meeting held at Roseville, California, to honor Kala Afghana, a resolution was passed urging the same. But it is unfortunate that organizations like Damdami Taksal, the cult of Randhir Singh and Santsmaj follow their own Rehat Maryada. Moreover, SGPC has never made any attempt to enforce the SGPC approved Rehat Maryada on these organizations. The tragedy is that SGCP itself is not following its own Rehat Maryada in Gudwaras under its control. For example, Brahmnical rituals and ceremonies are performed at Harimandir Sahib like the washing of floors with milk. Do the critics of Kala Afghana understand the significance of washing floor with milk. They should visit Shiv Ling temples and ask the priests, Why Shiv Ling is washed with milk? Why yogurt is spread around it? Why that yogurt is distributed as sacred food to young wives who want to conceive? Milk and yogurt represent Shivjis seamen, a symbol of fertility. Eleventh, Randhir Singh falsely accused Kala Afghana of denigrating Anad Karj, the Sikh marriage ceremony. Have Kala Afghanas critics looked at the marriage certificates issued to Sikh couples in India. It is issued under the Hindu Code Bill clause. Have Kala Afghanas critics taken any step to rectify this shameful situation? Why have they closed their eyes to this humiliation imposed on the Sikhs?Finally, we challenge any one to produce a single paragraph from Kala Afghanas writings, which in any form or manner harms Sikhism and Sikhs.

References and Notes 1 Rashtari Sikh: A member of the fascist Hindu organization, Rastrya Swayam Sevak Sangh (RSS) disguised as a Sikh.2 Bipran brigade: Organizations that are subverting Sikhism by introducing Brahminical beliefs, rituals and ceremonies into Sikhism and through misinterpretation of Gurbani and distortion of Sikh history. For example, Damdami Taksal, cult of Randhir Singh and Santsmaj constitute Bipran brigade. Santsmaj means organizations headed by unsavory characters like Baba Sarbjot Singh Bedi posing as pious Sikhs. Sarbjot Singh Bedi is the descendent of Khem Singh Bedi who wanted to be accepted as the 15th Guru of the Sikhs. He vehemently opposed the Singh Sabha Movement and the Gurdwara Reform Movement. He was the prime culprit in the excommunication of Professor Gurmukh Singh and harassment of Sikh intellectuals like Giani Dit Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha. Khem Singh Bedis son, Kartar Singh Bedi (Kartaru Be-Deen) supported Mahant Narain Das (Nrainu) who massacred more than hundred Sikhs at Nankana Sahib. 3 SGCP: Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.4 When Sikh Leaders do plain speaking about one another! Spokesman, January 2003, p 25-27.5 Kala Afgahana, G. S. Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhagre (Punjabi), 1st ed., 1996, p 302. 6 Khosa, A. S. You may publish any number of anti-Gurmat writings, our Singh Sahiban will have no objection to it, but if you write against Brahminical practices, you will be excommunicated from the Panth!! Spokesman, June 2003, p 43-46.7 Singh, Sangat, The Sikhs in History, 4 th ed., 2001, p 96, 100-101.

My own notes: Aside from the Brahmanistical ritual and beliefs mentioned above (like rituals suggesting Shiv Lingam worhsip), certain sects view of women is undoubtedly Brahmanistical. (name witheld as we all know who) The article above points out the misinterpretation of Gurbani by these sects to support their views.

This post is not to shoot down specific sects but instead the idea of sects at all. Though SGPC's SRM is not perfect, it's the recognized RM by Akal Takht and should be adopted by ALL Gurdwaras as suggested above. If certain aspects need to be revised then work toward revising them. However even SGPC is not actively enforcing its own SRM under influence from these sects. This can be seen even recently when Akal Takht declared that women were able to perform Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, but DDT and Sant Samaj opposed them. Even though SRM specifically imposes NO restrictions on Sikh women at all, and SRM is the code to be followed at Darbar Sahib, to this date we still do not see women performing kirtan there. This is a huge injustice. Among others, like the use of milk as described above. Why not simply water? etc.

It is my understanding that this Kala Afghana was defamed for simply pointing out the truth... Anyway, an interesting read (though its a few years old)

[hsingh8963]

Satkirin. Please. Stop.

Really ??? KALA AFGANA ? THE FALSE ANTI DASAM BANI ANTI EVERYTHING GURMAT. You post them?

As a tool to use against DDT and akj ?

Satkirin it's perfectly fine if you think SRM is the best. Use it. Tell others to use it

I remember a while back this thread was full of radical Hindus attacking sikhi from all sides. Of course then everyone left.

All of them got kicked out.

Now

We have a Damdami Taksaal is sexist war going on.

Now again no one will want to visit this forum.

I encourage you to look at previous pages and check out all the great topics here.

I know my first 3 parts seem out of utter frustration. That's because they are.

Just look at the history of KALA AFGANA.

Just look at what they say about Sri Dasam Granth.

[Guest]

There are no brahmaization of sikhi as everything meant to be looked at stages, contextualization off course it can easily turn into one if caution is not paid and in all fairness some of it has where people have no idea whats going on and have turned rituals into dogma.

Kala afghana mindset or bhausaria mindset* has also lost the plot completely don't understand the framework of gurmat, only understand one dimensional process/thinking they are attacking the rituals as opposed to raising the consciousness of seeker which gurbani does or understanding multi aspects of divine- Vahiguru (Devotional-sargun,shabad dhun and shabad gyan nirgun)... off course their kala afghana mindset is blind itself so its kind of like blind leading blind and off course those who are performing the rituals didn't do full justice or job to explain the framework either.

[Guest Ragmala]

These kala afghana issues have been discussed many times in the past. There is no end to it.

Calling rituals , we do not understand yet, Brahamnical only shows our limited understanding. It is a foolish way or path to adopt. There is a significance for each maryada that has been passed down through generations. If you keep calling things Brahmanical, then you will end up doing nothing in Sikhi. All the sweetness and devotion will be lost.

The issue of using milk+water has been discussed many times in this forum. It has a devotional aspect as well as keeping the marble healthy. Via the same lens, everything else will seem brahmanical to you. For eg

• Spraying perfumes on SGGS
• Using flower garlands, and flowers
• Using incense, ghee jot, coconut, kumbh water etc
• Doing chaur sahib, bhog to SGGS, blankets, rumalas etc

There is no end. So please don't go down this route.

[CdnSikhGirl]

I dont even know much about kala afghana... I just found the article interesting. Because it suggests that sects at all should be avoided, and shows how they are distorting Gurbani.

hsingh8983. It seems to me that when someone supports DDT etc. nobody calls them anti-gurmat, even with their sexist views and interpretations. But if someone speaks against them (and for SRM), it's all of a sudden wrong. Why is that? Is sexism Gurmat then? Paapiman certainly makes it seem so from his most recent posts. I missed the latest posts in my thread before it was closed. But Paapiman basically came straight out and said it's Gurmat for women to be seen as lower than men. I was not the only one who was hurt by this as even some Singhs commented before it was closed.

You are worried about people leaving the forum? What about the Singhnis? Is this forum supposed to be just for Singhs? It's ok for Singhs to post their views saying women should not even have Khande di Pahul, suggesting they were never given amrit, now suggesting even that they are to be 'passive and see her husband as a lord and cook him the best food' (wow, so Bhai Chaupa Singh really didnt like women did he... he reduced marriage from a loving equal relationship to that of Master / Servant. And low and behold... his background??? Brahmin!!) Oh -- but it's anti-gurmat to even point this out.

I guess my place is to be stuck in a kitchen serving men, and bowing to them the rest of my life. That's Gurmat right??

This post wasnt even meant to focus on the blatent sexism. But on the fact that these differing views between sects is what is causing all the problems. Akal Takht recognizes only SRM, so SRM should be the RM that is enforced everywhere. If small things in it need to be revamped, then work to revamp them. But allowing sects to all go off and do their own thing and follow different RMs then why do we even have RMs at all?? THATs the point of the article.

There should be only Sikhs... not DDT, Sant Samaj, AKJ, etc. After years of deliberation by several hundred different Sikhs, SRM was what existed, following Gurbani only, and removing the differences based upon culture and individual opinions.

But there is a double standard I have notcied on here. Any time someone mentions GRM, it's 'Gurmat' as if everyone takes it as 'truth'. And they attack anyone following SRM. And slyly too... they will say "ok follow SRM if you want' but then they add 'but GRM is THE word of the tenth master' in attempt to guilt you to think their way. (Paapiman again is guilty of this). btw nobody can prove that ANY rhetnama or RM is THE word of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji. None!

These petty differences are causing Sikhs to draw kirpans at each other IN Gurdwaras! Not being brought up in Sikhi, I came to the faith thinking it was one faith. Now I see many different 'versions' of Sikhi. And just for following the one that Akal Takht actually endorses, I have been called 'anti gurmat' because I don't believe (after reading SGGSJ) that women are to be beneath men, be servile to them all their lives and bow to them (bowing to someone is an open acknowledgemenet that you are beneath that person).

I get that majority on here support DDT and their GRM.

The forum should be called DDT Awareness... sorry. But it should.

I have always maintained that to have NO SECTS at all would be best. And whenever I have said that, the DDT police come out telling me I should know my place as a woman.

Certainly you MUST agree that having all these different sects is NOT helping Sikhi!!

[starchpagg47]

Christianization of Sikhi,

i.e taking 4 dharam of each varan, combining to one. Each varan lrft with a philosophy that is changed by Christian 19th century committees + a secular culture.

Secular meaning christian version of sufi islam.

Old practices like jhatka, dasam bani discarded,

overall basically consumerist christianity now.

[Ragmaala]

first of all, Sect, in indian context, means an organized tradition. It is different than sects in Christianity & Islam. So I will just use the word samparda. As you already know these various sampardas trace their root back in history. They all have a purpose & are not contradictory to each other. There are minor differences on the outside but inside the core principle is the same. They are needed and are very essential.

If it wasnt for these sant samaj, the sanctity & order of Banis in SGGS would not have been the same.

[Guest]

DDT as sub section-upsamparda of nirmale scholary order its traditional school and university in sikhism provides lot more than outer rehit. It provides proper framework of Gurbani and soul in relations to unity with supreme soul real self, provide multiple aspects of divine, stages in spiritual development, provides deep meditative meanings of gurbani in relations to individual.

It's just many those who called themselves taksali in west are devoid of knowledge of their own, usually fixate themselves on arbitrary details of external rehit totally ignoring actual studies/syllabus in school. It's like student who fixate themselves to uniform only or outside policies and totally ignoring the actual study of school.

I invite you read translations by japji sahib teeka* which provides ultimate essence of gurmat:

*

[Guest]

Its quite unfair to judge whole saint/scholarly university order-DDT of sikhism based on external socio-religious opinion differences.

[Singh123456777]

This kala afghans doesn't believe in Amrit... He criticizes the khandey di Pahul... I would never hear or read anything this shit for brains would say..

Satkiran you are just trying to find any fault with the DDT now...

[CdnSikhGirl]

first of all, Sect, in indian context, means an organized tradition. It is different than sects in Christianity & Islam. So I will just use the word samparda. As you already know these various sampardas trace their root back in history. They all have a purpose & are not contradictory to each other. There are minor differences on the outside but inside the core principle is the same. They are needed and are very essential.

If it wasnt for these sant samaj, the sanctity & order of Banis in SGGS would not have been the same.

I wouldn't call some of these differences minor... it might seem minor to the Singhs who never have to worry about being told their place is beneath men, to be servile to men and to bow to them (thus admitting lower status) versus equal treatment. That's not minor. That's huge. Especially given the fact that any time a female challenges this lower treatment she is accused of being 'anti-gurmat'.

Things like how many banis... I agree thats minor as those who wish to do more can... nobody is stopping anyone from doing more. It's just laying down a minimum. Though I dont personally believe keski is kakkar, I do believe that everyone male and female should tie turbans. I base this off the lines in Gurbani instructing to 'let your total awareness be the turban on your head' (which is not directed at only men) and also 52 Hukams says every Sikh should tie a turban. But that is also a small issue... I am sure though, that majority of Amritdhari Singhnis would be fine with tying turbans (and most do anyway). Sarbloh bibek I am not sure where it comes from... but I would say that it would be very very difficult to maintain in today's world. Same with only eating food prepared by Amritdharis... as one example, in the military I am not allowed anywhere near the kitchen. Only trained cooks are. I'm not a trained cook... I dont even cook at home. I'd starve at sea if I had to follow sarbloh bibek and not eating from non-Amritdharis! But nobody is saying that people can't follow that in addition to basic RM. But it shouldnt be forced on anyone - so its a minor issue as well since minimum can be stated and people can do more if they so wish.

But the issue of gender equlity is not a small thing. It's huge... for one half the human race, it means the difference between being seen an equal human being (by our very creator), or being told that by very virtue of your being born in this body you are beneath the other half of the human race to be servile and you must show that lower status by bowing to them to show 'uttmost' respect as Paapiman states. The very fact that your own Creator would see you in this way is huge for women. It automatically makes women feel rejected, inadequate, like they did something wrong to be seen like this.

(btw nobody should bow to anyone except SGGSJ) touching feet of elders (both male and female is fine) but not bowing...

[Guest]

Here is contexualization/ deep discussions on 52 hakums:

[Singh123456777]

Satkiran what you think is a major difference is a minor difference to some and what is a minor difference is a major difference to the panth... One cannot change gurbani according to their own likings... This is utter beadbi...

[SikhKhoj]

To be honest, there is not much of a difference in the ways traditional Nirmalas, DDTs and Nihangs distort Sikhi and Missionaries and Bhasaurias on one side.

The sad thing is that even broad minded people like Neo fall in the trap of labelling one as saints, thus their every statement contradicting to Gurbani is explained with fairy tales but attacking every minor thing said by missionaries.

For me it is as blasphemous saying that 7th Guru married 8 sisters, Gurbani while walking is anti-Gurmat as people who say Guru Nanak Dev Ji ate halal and Guru Arjan Dev Ji fainted on the hot tavi.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Satkiran what you think is a major difference is a minor difference to some and what is a minor difference is a major difference to the panth... One cannot change gurbani according to their own likings... This is utter beadbi...

Exactly!!! So why are DDT / Sant Samaj etc doing it?? Changing Gurbani meaning to suit their likings?

[Guest]

Exactly!!! So why are DDT / Sant Samaj etc doing it?? Changing Gurbani meaning to suit their likings?

There are multiple aspect/level/stage interpretations of gurbani provided in gurbani katha by damdami taksali, just because you read one version in ddt book does not meant there are not multiple interpretations of same gurbani tuk provided by ddt

I invite you to listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh katha of gurbani if you understand punjabi of the same gurbani tuk which seem misinterpretation due to lack of contexualization provided by them.

As i said earlier it will be quite illogical to reject whole school of thought full framework- damdami taksal university just because one does not agree with external policies / stories/uniform.

Does sexism exist in sikhism? Yes it does its not because of damdami taksal because of some of punjabi tribal cultural influence on Sikhism.

[CdnSikhGirl]

How can you ever contextualize physical women seeing physical men as God... but not the other way around... when the meaning as shown (when you read th efull shabad) is clearly talking about the soul bride concept... its speaking to everyone souls which are all female, and our relationship to Waheguru Ji which is the only actual male in Gurbani.

DDT have obviously used it (switching the Husband-Lord backwards) as a means to denegrate women to having to acknowledge *human physical* men as God while they see themselves as lower. Paapiman is a good example of how Sikh youth are taking this and using it as justification to tell Gursikh females they should show *uttmost respect* (his words) to Gursikh males. While stating straight out that there is no instruction for Gursikh males to do the same in return. This creates a serious imbalance of authority and power and creates the scenario which leads to domestic violence towards women (like it or not) the attitude is the beginning. Being taught all their lives that the are entitled to being waited on hand and foot by women, and treated as a God by them, then it becomes a means to 'punish' them if they don't live uyp to that expectation thats now placed on them. Sikh wives have become nothing more than a live in servant thanks to DDT (and similar). When marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership of love and sharing and giving both ways. Instead the way DDT teaches it, the woman is always beneath the man, feeling lower in status, expected to be servile, expected to see him as high above her as God while she is lowly. What kind of loving marriage could that ever be? There is NO context for this unless you acknowledge that women are devalued in Sikhi and are seen to be only existing for men's pleasure. This goes against what is written in the rest of SGGSJ.

I don't reject ALL of DDT teaching. Just how they see women. Rest is fine. And yes, I believe that the sexism stemmed from cultural / tribal influence at the time. Trouble is, nobody will acknowledge that - they say it's how things are supposed to be and that's how Guru Ji wanted it. Seriously??

[Singh123456777]

Exactly!!! So why are DDT / Sant Samaj etc doing it?? Changing Gurbani meaning to suit their likings?

What I mean is how the akj or other sects fully disregard gurbani...

Just listen to katha by sant gurbachan Singh your doubts will be erased...

[CdnSikhGirl]

Keep in mind I do not follow any Jatha... including AKJ.

But... how are AKJ fully disregarding Gurbani? Even Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrenwale highly respected AKJ for how they approach kirtan and simran. This too even with their differences bewteen AKJ and DDT! Just like I don't say that DDT 'fully disregards' gurbani... none of the Jathas FULLY disregard it. But they pick and choose different things to suit their liking. With DDT, they take that ONE tuk... in the whole of SGGSJ, twist it backwards, try to say it's speaking about physical wives duties to see their physical husbands as God, teach this crap to youth like Paapiman who then think it's men's right / entitlement to be worshipped as God by women. This is outright creating an imbalance of authority and power and basically turning Gursikh wives into live-in servants. Marriage is no longer able to be an equal relationship of love and sharing / caring and mutual respect. It's instead turned into a Master and servant relationship where the wife always feels lowly, inadequate, to her husband who is 'Her Lord'.

I know you will say that not all DDT think this way but you have to admit that witnessing the drivel posted by Paapiman on here, and he is openly admitting he is learning this from DDT. That, and it's actually completely defined as such in the Gurmat Rehet Maryada... They are disregarding the rest of Gurbani where it says male / female are equal (A Master / Servant relationship is not equal in any sense of the word). They also disregard other parts in Gurbani where it says women are not unclean because of certain biological processes. Gurbani says that which makes someone unclean is someone without naam. However, DDT treats women who are menstruating as 'impure' and 'unclean' disallowing them from touching SGGSJ etc. (I mean come on... women do not ooze fluids all over the place. There is such a thing as hygiene products and soap!) There is also nothing in Gurbani barring women from ANY seva whatsoever... but DDT does.

Now I am not saying AKJ is perfect either.... taking sarbloh bibek as an example. And I agree keski is not the kakkar... (though personally I believe both male and female should tie turbans for other reasons). With other groups its the meat issue, or intoxicants (bhang) etc.

I just think we should leave all these things and strip the Rehet Maryada to the basics... the bits that ALL groups share in common. THATs the CORE of Sikhi. And that's what SRM is. And remember that SRM is seen as the minimum that is required. If you personally want to do more nitnem etc. Nobody would stop you.

I agree with you that we should go by Gurbani fully.... but NONE of the Jathas or groups are doing that!

[Harjots8963]

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_%28Bhindran_wale%29/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_03_Ang_0151-0249/35-Sant.Gurbachan.Singh--Raag.Gourhi--Ang.185.mp3

[Kuttabanda2]

How can you ever contextualize physical women seeing physical men as God... but not the other way around... when the meaning as shown (when you read th efull shabad) is clearly talking about the soul bride concept... its speaking to everyone souls which are all female, and our relationship to Waheguru Ji which is the only actual male in Gurbani.

DDT have obviously used it (switching the Husband-Lord backwards) as a means to denegrate women to having to acknowledge *human physical* men as God while they see themselves as lower. Paapiman is a good example of how Sikh youth are taking this and using it as justification to tell Gursikh females they should show *uttmost respect* (his words) to Gursikh males. While stating straight out that there is no instruction for Gursikh males to do the same in return. This creates a serious imbalance of authority and power and creates the scenario which leads to domestic violence towards women (like it or not) the attitude is the beginning. Being taught all their lives that the are entitled to being waited on hand and foot by women, and treated as a God by them, then it becomes a means to 'punish' them if they don't live uyp to that expectation thats now placed on them. Sikh wives have become nothing more than a live in servant thanks to DDT (and similar). When marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership of love and sharing and giving both ways. Instead the way DDT teaches it, the woman is always beneath the man, feeling lower in status, expected to be servile, expected to see him as high above her as God while she is lowly. What kind of loving marriage could that ever be? There is NO context for this unless you acknowledge that women are devalued in Sikhi and are seen to be only existing for men's pleasure. This goes against what is written in the rest of SGGSJ.

I don't reject ALL of DDT teaching. Just how they see women. Rest is fine. And yes, I believe that the sexism stemmed from cultural / tribal influence at the time. Trouble is, nobody will acknowledge that - they say it's how things are supposed to be and that's how Guru Ji wanted it. Seriously??

For God's sake, when you DDT you are aware that DDT itself has many sects? That disagree with each other on quite a lot of stuff!

The GRM isn't even authored by Gyani Gurbachan Singh Jee, yes he believed in and preached some stuff that we might disagree with, but it doesn't mean he's lying, he preached what he was taught by his predecessors and teachers, but alas, Sikhkhoj nu ta aag hi lag jandi aa jado koi Gyani di Sifat Kare.

DDT Ajnala

DDT Bhindra Mehta

DDT Sangrawan

DDT Bhindra

"Solo" Taksalis

Outcast/Ostracized Taksalis

These are just a few divisions within the Taksal, and they are all not the same! I'm not sure if all accept the GRM as it is.

Additionally, like I said before, the Gurmat Paath Darpan itself has gone through some editing as some have claimed, either made more Singh Sabha oriented or more Snaatanized.

Just stop generalizing. Geez.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Kuttabanda2

[Harjots8963]

Towards the middle-end Tuk is Talked About...

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ

^^this is the one yes?

[Kuttabanda2]

In regards to Kala Afghana, Inder Ghagga, Darshan Lal, Dhunda, etc. though some of their points in regards to Dera-Vaad are valid and important, these buffoons aren't so pure themselves.

Not so long ago, Shivteg (ironic, isn't it? Name's Shivteg, and a missionary?) Sinh was caught with a Dhaddi Bibi.

And Kala Afghana is rumored to have harassed a bibi.

The Tapobani Singhs know a lot about these Dhurmat Professors and Gyanis, and even countered them.

These people are the same people have twisted the meanings and words of Gurbani themselves yet accuse others of doing it.

They wrongly say that Charitar means 'wiles' when it in fact means 'Character', thus making Charitropakhyan's meaning to be the "The wiles of women". Pulling a tukk from Dasam Patshah Ki Granth and twisting it whilst pushing other tukks under the carpet to suit their agenda.

[Singh123456777]

But... how are AKJ fully disregarding Gurbani?

The Guru Granth Sahib Ji has 1430 angs but the Akjs only believe in 1429.. They believe that raag mala is not gurbani and many Akjs think it should be ripped out of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and burned and disregarded and given no resect... This is how the akj disrespect gurbani.. They don't even believe in the whole true guru but cast doubts on such a beautiful bani such as raag mala...

Is this enough proof? Does any other sect disregard and disrespect gurbani like this? The DDT does not.. The nihangs do not.. The sgpc don't etc...

PS: there are some Akjs who do believe in raag mala...

[SikhKhoj]

In regards to Kala Afghana, Inder Ghagga, Darshan Lal, Dhunda, etc. though some of their points in regards to Dera-Vaad are valid and important, these buffoons aren't so pure themselves.

Not so long ago, Shivteg (ironic, isn't it? Name's Shivteg, and a missionary?) Sinh was caught with a Dhaddi Bibi.

And Kala Afghana is rumored to have harassed a bibi.

The Tapobani Singhs know a lot about these Dhurmat Professors and Gyanis, and even countered them.

These people are the same people have twisted the meanings and words of Gurbani themselves yet accuse others of doing it.

They wrongly say that Charitar means 'wiles' when it in fact means 'Character', thus making Charitropakhyan's meaning to be the "The wiles of women". Pulling a tukk from Dasam Patshah Ki Granth and twisting it whilst pushing other tukks under the carpet to suit their agenda.

Apparently Baba Thakur Singh Patiala kissed a lady from the sangat on her lips too? His audio clips are available, trying to justify his misdeeds. If he is so pure why didn't he do defamation case? What answer will I expect from brainwashed people on here? "Brahmgyani di mauj, its his will he sees something we can't and thus won't do case" HAHAHA

DDT and other babas are as guilty of twisting Bani as Satkiran has shown for the wife regarding husband as God tuk. And many more 'lies' lying in their kathas.