paapiman Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Correct, Kabeer was a Muslim background was he not? Shromani Bhagat Baba Kabeer jee Maharaaj was raised by Muslim parents, but he was Brahmin by birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 gurbani is beyond literal meaning. papiman veerji please don't go to shabadarth see what is the bhava behind the shabad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 gurbani is beyond literal meaning. papiman veerji please don't go to shabadarth see what is the bhava behind the shabad Bro, we cannot discard all the literal meanings of Gurbani. There is tremendous amount of knowledge in them. For example: ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥ - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233|| There are two more deeper meanings of the above tuks. If we only accept them, then the above akhree arth will be lost. But, the above akhree arth has a great instruction for us, which benefits our health. There are many types of arths - Akhree, Bhav, Antriv, Dungay, etc. We need to accept all of them. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Bro, we cannot discard all the literal meanings of Gurbani. There is tremendous amount of knowledge in them. For example: ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233|| There are two more deeper meanings of the above tuks. If we only accept them, then the above akhree arth will be lost. But, the above akhree arth has a great instruction for us, which benefits our health. There are many types of arths - Akhree, Bhav, Antriv, Dungay, etc. We need to accept all of them. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh bro but your tuk which misinterpreted by ddt whch arth is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 bro but your tuk which misinterpreted by ddt whch arth is that Akhree arth This is a teaching for a woman. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥ Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā. Says Nanak, she who looks upon the husband as a lord ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥ Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99|| is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99|| I think this is Antriv arth, but I am not sure. This is a teaching for all souls (male or female) ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ कहु नानक जिनि प्रिउ परमेसरु करि जानिआ ॥ Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā. Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥ Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99|| is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99|| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) And who benefits from that 'teaching for a woman?' Men only?? Lmao You don't get it... That meaning if in fact it's for a woman, goes against rest of Gurbani. That doesn't make sense. Not to mention it would only feed Ego in the husband. Even Ramgharia told u that, and Singh123456777 even said that is not just instruction for 'a woman' but for BOTH. Husband also is to see his wife as God. If DDT are taking it to demean women into beneath men than DDT are wrong. And I'm done. And I hope someday you see the truth Paapiman. Good luck finding any woman who would bow to your demands as God. LOL it's sickening. Edited May 16, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harjots8963 Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 And who benefits from that 'teaching for a woman?' Men only?? Lmao You don't get it... That meaning if in fact it's for a woman, goes against rest of Gurbani. That doesn't make sense. Not to mention it would only feed Ego in the husband. Even Ramgharia told u that, and Singh123456777 even said that is not just instruction for 'a woman' but for BOTH. Husband also is to see his wife as God. If DDT are taking it to demean women into beneath men than DDT are wrong. And I'm done. And I hope someday you see the truth Paapiman. Good luck finding any woman who would bow to your demands as God. LOL it's sickening. Right so. Not quoting Gurmat Rehat Maryada or anything. This is Sant Giani Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Ji Bhindranwale on 15:50 - If you don't have time to listen to the whole katha - Please try to listen to the whole katha though. http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_%28Bhindran_wale%29/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_03_Ang_0151-0249/35-Sant.Gurbachan.Singh--Raag.Gourhi--Ang.185.mp3 ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Paapiman veer, What's Dungay arth? Never heard of that one ..can you please shed more light on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Paapiman veer, What's Dungay arth? Never heard of that one ..can you please shed more light on this? Bro, I mean deep level arths. Dungay in Punjabi, as in Dunga pani - deep water. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Right so. Not quoting Gurmat Rehat Maryada or anything. This is Sant Giani Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Ji Bhindranwale on 15:50 - If you don't have time to listen to the whole katha - Please try to listen to the whole katha though.http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_%28Bhindran_wale%29/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_03_Ang_0151-0249/35-Sant.Gurbachan.Singh--Raag.Gourhi--Ang.185.mp3 ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥ I already said its in Punjabi meaning I can't understand it... I do not speak Punjabi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Dungay as in made up after hallucination by these self styled babas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Satkirin, this man paapi doesn't talk sense. He quotes Suraj Parkash to prove his one point, but then keeps saying Ragmala is bani while his quoted book Suraj Parkash raises doubt on Ragmalas authenticity. Why does this man use a granth to say Guru Har Rai had 8 wives but continue believing Ragmala is bani which is not supported by his source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) I want to blast Paapi one on one debate, are you up for it Paapi? Just me and you. Only proofs, not stupid websites which makes 1+1=3 claims because you quote Sarbloh.info but the same site says Gurbachans Taksal has no lineage to Guru Gobind Singh. Edited May 16, 2015 by SikhKhoj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) Satkirin, this man paapi doesn't talk sense. He quotes Suraj Parkash to prove his one point, but then keeps saying Ragmala is bani while his quoted book Suraj Parkash raises doubt on Ragmalas authenticity. Why does this man use a granth to say Guru Har Rai had 8 wives but continue believing Ragmala is bani which is not supported by his source? He keeps trying to say that tuk is an 'instruction' for *physical* women to see their *physical* husbands as God... LOL. He is too brainwashed to see the metaphor. That the 'she' in that tuk is not human female or physical wife, but is the 'soul bride' which all of us are to Waheguru Ji who is the only true male spoken of in Gurbani. Telling someone to view another human AS God, while not also telling the other to reciprocate, creates imbalance and goes against Gurbani where rest of SGGSJ says divine jot is in everyone equally male and female both. So why would one gender have to see the other as above them as God? BOTH are to see the light of God in each other. THAT is what creates a stable and loving caring marriage! Not a heirarchy with a submissive subordinate woman who has to see herself beneath her husband. Plus telling someone to serve another human as a God, creates Ego in the person expecting that privilege over another, and creates attachment in the person having to view someone on the same level as God... when ONLY Waheguru Ji should be seen in this light. It doesn't make sense to create a situation that will only build Ego and Attachment when the Gurus were telling us these things are wrong.... Here...Have a read of this... in one katha a Taksali actually stated outright that women 'do not and should not have any rights in Sikhi' Apparently DDT also bars single women from taking Amrit, but does not bar single men from taking Amrit. (without their spouse) even though Amrit can not be refused to anyone... http://ikonkar.yuku.com/reply/931/Damdami-Taksal-reject-women-from-taking-amrit#.VVe9OpNVikp Edited May 16, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 This person, Paapi, says that every Tuk has a deep meaning but also a superficial meaning which can not be ignored. This is the whole discussion about wife-husband-God. I feel his theory is flawed because for example, anyone could take this tuks literal meanings and go the Taliban way: ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥ Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1|| I don't see Sikhs burning people and chopping atheists or non Sikhs up (yet). But if we adopt your flawed mentality we SHOULD be doing that because every tuk has a superficial meaning which is also very important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 And yes, Taksal, Nihangs etc all have a tribal mentality. Only AKJ, Missionaries and 3HO are okay in the equality part 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 This person, Paapi, says that every Tuk has a deep meaning but also a superficial meaning which can not be ignored. This is the whole discussion about wife-husband-God. I feel his theory is flawed because for example, anyone could take this tuks literal meanings and go the Taliban way: ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥ Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1|| I don't see Sikhs burning people and chopping atheists or non Sikhs up (yet). But if we adopt your flawed mentality we SHOULD be doing that because every tuk has a superficial meaning which is also very important. Gurbani is ALL allegory and metaphor. It uses subjects that those around at the time it was written, could relate to and understand, in order to convey deeper spiritual meanings. It was NEVER meant as a rule book. In fact, Gurbani actually says that rules and dogma are wrong as they wont get you to God. Yet, young'ens like Paapiman seem to only be concerned about rules rules more rules and have forgotten about the actual spirituality! Case in point... spirituality and spiritual experience is WELL within our reach! And we are told how! Yet he keeps saying that only Brahamgyanis can experience these things and we are supposed to just follow rules rules more rules. And that we can ' never know' etc. Well I hate to burst his bubble but I have been having spiritual experiences (OBEs etc) all my life without even trying. And I have always been acutely aware of the spiritual underlying reality of the universe! And yet, I dont have the label of 'brahamgyani'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 You are right. He is gripped by the sect mentality, I don't blame him I used to be a hardcore Taksali too. All I saw was their apparant 'kamayee' of doing 51 or 101 Japji Sahibs a day and thought I would be committing a Paap by questioning their fairy tales. But the day I started doing that I found God and got released from these chains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 You are right. He is gripped by the sect mentality, I don't blame him I used to be a hardcore Taksali too. All I saw was their apparant 'kamayee' of doing 51 or 101 Japji Sahibs a day and thought I would be committing a Paap by questioning their fairy tales. But the day I started doing that I found God and got released from these chains. I can tell you... its way easier than you think to actually 'experience' verses just following blind rules. You just need to believe... and always remember Waheguru with every thought, every breath. When you meditate... you have to forget the entire physical world... just go within yourself because that's where you find God. And once you 'know' though experience, you no longer need to 'believe' because you then 'understand'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest harjot Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 This thread has gone past a single debate to just attacks against each other. If someone has a belief that you don't agree with its fine. Focus on your own jeevan. Focus on your own sikhi. Neo close the thread ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Satkirin, this man paapi doesn't talk sense. He quotes Suraj Parkash to prove his one point, but then keeps saying Ragmala is bani while his quoted book Suraj Parkash raises doubt on Ragmalas authenticity. Why does this man use a granth to say Guru Har Rai had 8 wives but continue believing Ragmala is bani which is not supported by his source?Some places you use stuff from suraj Prakash and other times you discredit it.. Would this not be called hypocrisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Papiman, i wanted to comment on what you said earlier: There are many types of arths - Akhree, Bhav, Antriv, Dungay, etc. We need to accept all of them. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh In my view, whilst we acknowledge there are types of arths of gurbani, we usually acknowledge and transcendent thats the key is spirituality- because usually in meditation its only one arth at a time, which resonates deeply with individuals..arth may actually change as you keep going more deeper and deeper in meditation. You may like this peace of information they say- in gyan khand you get parchad gyan (pure cognitive intuitive wisdom) of gurbani, so arth you may hold so dearly may have to transcendent in order to clear picture of gurbani. This is the problem, people see gurbani through conceptually/intellect/blind faith (which usually not full anyway as there is always some doubts so neither here or there) into arths views rather than experiencing/feeling antriv arth yourself in meditation. As they say religion is someone else experience, but spiritual gurmat is one own experience. It's not good to fixate on one interpretation/conceptual view of gurbani as we are confining gurbani. Will close this thread tom, both parties please provide your closing statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 to bring peace in panth we need only one rehat maryada and whole panth should follow only one maryada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Satkirin, this man paapi doesn't talk sense. He quotes Suraj Parkash to prove his one point, but then keeps saying Ragmala is bani while his quoted book Suraj Parkash raises doubt on Ragmalas authenticity. Why does this man use a granth to say Guru Har Rai had 8 wives but continue believing Ragmala is bani which is not supported by his source? Even you did the same. Check the post made by Singh123456777 above. Quote Some places you use stuff from suraj Prakash and other times you discredit it.. Would this not be called hypocrisy? Unquote Edited May 17, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) I want to blast Paapi one on one debate, are you up for it Paapi? Just me and you. Only proofs, not stupid websites which makes 1+1=3 claims because you quote Sarbloh.info but the same site says Gurbachans Taksal has no lineage to Guru Gobind Singh. I might consider it. But, you need to reply, to the below two questions: Do you believe in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee? Do you believe in Sri Raagmala Sahib jee? I need to know if you deserve to be called a Sikh or not. Sarabloh website also proves that the Taksaal goes back to Tenth master. They mention Baba Bishen Singh jee as a Nirmalay scholar. Nirmalays trace back their origin to the tenth master. Edited May 17, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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