paapiman Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) You mean Nirankaris,Naamdharis or Radhaswami can't attain brahmgyan???,and why?? Do you think, they can? So, you believe that their human gurus are equal to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj/SSGGSJ??????? Edited May 22, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Do you think, they can? Anyone has the same potential as Brahamgyan is the state of God realization. Nobody has a monopoly on that. So yes I do.... The answer is INSIDE ALL of us! And anyone can find it. Why do you think they can't? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 You mean Nirankaris,Naamdharis or Radhaswami can't attain brahmgyan???,and why?? u might know about it - if not - do u want to know, what, one of the Radhaswami gurus used to give the sangat? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 u might know about it - if not - do u want to know, what, one of the Radhaswami gurus used to give the sangat? How does what one Radhaswami gave to anyone have anything to do with an individual (of any background) finding God within themselves? ANY group who claims to have a monopoly on God has already lost their way IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukrit kaur Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) SSGGSJ is the current form of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj. There is no difference between them. Who said SSGGSJ is greater than Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj or fourth master is greater than tenth master?You know the answer,so why you put the earlier question?? You know veer ji,one who has done divine darshan of his teacher/guru in form of a jot,he can only give the answer whether a human guru is greater than SGGSJ or just a embodiment of divine shakti.Guru Nanak DeV Ji maharaj or any of ten Guru's came here in human bodies..So they were too Human Guru's at that time. As it's said Guru Nanak Patsah will take human birth for 84 times,and anyhow if one is ignorant about any physical being,who is Guru Nanak patsah himself,then what can he (poor one) answer??? Does That true pursh lower than jot of Divine shakti/SGGSJ??? You know It's something mystical...One who gets true grace of sache patsah will understand this fact.He will start seeing Moorat of his true pursh,(Only If TRUE One,complete guru,Sachkhand Wasi) in SGGSJ or will start talking to SGGsJ in true manner. It's very easy to say anything,but when one gets darshan of divine,he knows the mystery.. Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj Were told by Guru Patsah himself to have his Human Guru/teacher. Now only Baba Nand singh Ji maharaj can answer Whether his teacher/guru is lower than SGGSJ or is a ray of divine jot of nirankar himself. That's why gurbani says Brahmgyani ki Gat Brahmgyani Jaanaey.. Or if you want a perfect answer especially from me ,then pray to Guru patsah For me.He will himself help me to find a true pursh/teacher then after having divine glimpse inside(((ohhh sache patsahhhh,May this come truee,,wahhhhh))),I will give you the appropriate answer. If not so,then pray for yourself and have the answer from divine. Yes adding more,I would like to share some things from suleman tape.When he was asked that what does Baba isher Singh Ji (Rara sahib waale) mean to you?? He answered he himself is ray/jot of guru Nanak patsah ,he himself is the divine shakti.Cause baba ji's divine jot was visible to him.Now only he knows the mystery.We can still doubt he is just a human body.He can't be greater than Guru Nanak patsah or SGGSJ maharaj .Even,baba ji will never accept these words.He would probably be very angry for giving him stature equal to Guru Nanak patsah .But Who can teach Suleman?? He well knows the mystery. He only knows what baba Ji means to him. So is he doing any mistake by saying baba ji as jot of Nanak patsah ??? You know we can go on and on saying several things,but the truth is unspoken. Just do an ardaas if you have sooooooo much love for SGGSJ maharaj.and take a hukamnaama.trust me ,Guru sahib will def give you the answer. I hope I didnt say anything wrong. Waheguru hi budh bakshe saanu jeeva nu!! Gurfateh!! Edited May 22, 2015 by sukrit kaur 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukrit kaur Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Do you think, they can? So, you believe that their human gurus are equal to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj/SSGGSJ??????? I dont know much,but Take an example.: Two persons,First one belongs to sikhism and second second is not a sikh. Ist one has all wisdom,has taken amrit but still has not progressed spiritually.He reads Gurbani,but does not walk on the way mentioned there.He is doing all pathh etc,but still has not known core idea of spirituality.The message given in each line,each word,each tukk of gurbani is not familiar to him.then,it simply means he is not talking to SGGSJ and no indication he is getting from.So Tell em whether he has attained the true purpose of life?? To take amrit,or to born in sikhism is just a begginning.He has brought the fruit home,but has not eaten yet.So is he a true sikh?? I don't think so.. On same time,other person who belongs to any other samparda Radhaswami,nirmale or nirankarri.Though he belongs to a particular sect,but still as an individual,he has a great respect for SGGSJ coz he knows the true message of Guru sahib.If he has attained this purpose or he is able to understand each word of gurbani,if he knows what is the true message given by a each and every pangat of SGGSJ a,then he knows how to talk to SGGSJ.Guru sahib Ji is talking to such person.All he is doing is that he has a teacher from whom he is taking suggestions.Only difference is that he has joined other train.He is travelling in other vehicle.So every vehicle has its own rules , and regulations in order to complete the journey and to reach the destination.If he is a very much beloved soul then who knows when Guru sahib comes , holds his hand and carries him with himself.So ,we can never say anything which is ToTally true unless experienced.If a Radhaswami gets chance to meet GURU Nanak patsah with his efforts or true love and a sikh can't due to his false ego,then who is the true winner??? I've personally met many ppl in my life ,who are sikhs,but still very busy in such useless wordly discussions or just solving disputes.On other if a non sikh is busy in true kamai irrespective of any worldly stature,then who is following true path. A biggest sinner can be the noblest person. If Guru sahib wants then any person of any samparda can attain the highest state.Then who knows,when he will be great sikh of time. I'm not a scholar nor I'm so free to go on discussions. I hope Waheguru Ji makes our doubts clear.. I'm too struggling to understand the mystical facts. If we are born in sikhism,then it means we are provided with a big fruit.All we need to do is to eat this fruit rather than to give a look on other's fruits or arguing their efforts. Gur fateh!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 You know the answer,so why you put the earlier question?? You know veer ji,one who has done divine darshan of his teacher/guru in form of a jot,he can only give the answer whether a human guru is greater than SGGSJ or just a embodiment of divine shakti.Guru Nanak DeV Ji maharaj or any of ten Guru's came here in human bodies..So they were too Human Guru's at that time. No one is greater than SSGGSJ. Saints can merge into him. The 10 incarnations of God appeared to be human, but they were not human like us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) On same time,other person who belongs to any other samparda Radhaswami,nirmale or nirankarri.Though he belongs to a particular sect,but still as an individual,he has a great respect for SGGSJ coz he knows the true message of Guru sahib. In current times, one branch of Nirankaris, Radhaswamis and Namdharis cannot be classified as sects of Sikhism. They are cults/separate religions. One of the Radhaswamis so-called guru, used to smoke tobacco, which is a cardinal sin in Sikhism. The basic Sikh principle is to believe in SSGGSJ, as the living form of God. Edited May 23, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 In current times, one branch of Nirankaris, Radhaswamis and Namdharis cannot be classified as sects of Sikhism. They are cults. One of the Radhaswamis so-called guru, used to smoke tobacco, which is a cardinal sin in Sikhism. The basic Sikh principle is to believe in SSGGSJ, as the living form of God. And none of this has anything to do with attaining brahamgyan.... every human still has the divine light in them and can find the truth! And you seem to use the words cult a lot... do you actually know the meaning of the word cult?? Because I dont think you do... You seem to think any group except DDT / Nihang are cults. I knew someone who had to be 'deprogrammed' from a cult and let me tell you none of the Sikh sects qualify. Some indicators of a cult: Brainwashing to thinking their way is the only / right way Told they are the only chosen ones who will attain 'salvation' or God while everyone else will perish Strict 'Rules' to abide by Blindly follow a human leader Women are often severly restricted So far, sounds like DDT and Nihangs could even fit in this description doesn't it?? And this is from a theology site! But its much worse... continuing on: Alienating and isolation from family and friends, Threats that if someone leaves they will go to hell, or even worse be physically harmed, Coerce payment or money from that person, or sometimes giving up all their worldly possessions Often communal living with only bare essentials None of the Sikh sects or groups fall into this description. So please stop calling groups like AKJ cults when they are not. They have slightly different views than your DDT do. Nothing they do however goes against Sikh Rehet Maryada. And at least they follow Akal Takht which the seat of Sikh authority while DDT a minority group, openly reject the seat of Sikh authority. Back to the original Post: Nirankaris, Radhaswamis and Namdharis: They are not considered Sikhs you are correct. But that doesn't mean they can not attain spiritual realized state as Brahamgyani. Someone who smokes, but devotes their entire life to doing good, and loving God and finds God within themselves... has more chance than a hypocritical Sikh who might like to put everyone else down but doesn't actually do good, doesn't actually live as espousing the qualities of God. (not referring to any people specifically just generalizing). ANYONE has potential to become Brahamgyani as the Universal Truth and God are only as far away as within ourselves. Waheguru did not make it so only DDT and Nihang Sikhs could achieve this state. I highly believe that even Dali Llama has achieved it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 to get braham gian you neead a satguru who will help you. guru granth sahib (for sikh) can only help you to become brahamgiani no one else can help a sikh ( including namdhari sect, radhasoami sect) to attain brahamgian. if someone says sikh doesen't need guru granth sahib to be a brahamgiani he/she is not a true gursikh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 i think namdharis are sikhs beacouse they belive in guru nanak to guru gobind singh sahib the do follow strict instruction of there guru. they are sikhs of guru nanak but not of guru gobind singh. there is a sect of namdhari there head thakur daleep singh is trying to unite the khalsa 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukrit kaur Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) No one is greater than SSGGSJ. Saints can merge into him. The 10 incarnations of God appeared to be human, but they were not human like us. No one is greater than SSGGSJ. Saints can merge into him. The 10 incarnations of God appeared to be human, but they were not human like us.Exactly!!!! We are sikhs,very fortunate souls,SGGSJ as our Guru,and yes there is no one greater than a true Guru. But somewhere I guess you took me in wrong manner.I dont want to argue about SGGSJ.I was just explaining about a human Guru.In my view,Guru is a teacher,who helps us to meet nirankar.And ten Guru's and SGGSJ are not only Teachers/Gurus for me now.They are Nirankaar for me.All.the goal of my life is to meet them,in any sarroop coz their jot is one.They are God.So A teacher(We were reffering guru)/saint/brahmgyani is needed to help us so that we can meet our sache patsah.If one has great desire to meet Guru Nanak patsah or Guru Ramdass patsah,then it means he is yearing to meet Nirankar.So They are not only limited to the world Guru.Okay we take Guru as Nirankaar,then better use the word teacher/saint/Saadu. Gurbani says Mil SAadu Akathhh kathayaaa tha.. So a teacher a jot who has already merged with nirankar,helps us to meet our satnirankar/sache paysah/Guru Nanak patsah/Guru Ramdass patsah.. And the time when Niraankar was here in form of a human body,and that tine they were called as Gurus,Dhan are the ppl who got chance to meet sache patsah as human body in their lives and as their Guru.No doubt ,Guru nanak patsah is still a Guru,but now, no body means only a bright soul can get chance to meet him.Okay If I was in human birth at time of Guru Nanak patsah,then I could meet sache patshe directly in any possible way.But now sache patsah are in sachkhand.How I,the poor soul whose light of soul has not brightened yet ,has no kamai of previous lives,can manage to meet sache patsah..How??? Sache patsah himself makes a way for us to merge in him.It's only by his grace ,we get a company of any teacher/Guru/saadu/saint in our life.Then,This happens.If one gets chance to meet sachepatsah without any teacher,it means he surely had a teacher /or any kamai in his previous life. BTW,I believe in Gurbani.And everytime I've got direct messages from SGGSJ,so one shouldnt misinterpret their budhi(which is already very limited) from such man made rules.This sect/ur Word CULT says this and that is just out of my biz.All I think Gurbani is the voice of Nirankaar which is not only for sikh,DDT,Akj,radhaswami etc.This is the message for entire humanity.For entire world.for entire beloved souls.UPDESH CHAHO VARNA Ko SANJA.. And Guru Nanak patsah can be in any avtaar/body right now(acc to 84 incarnations of Guru nanak patsah),then that body can look like human ,but that will not be human.So as I told you It's something Mystical. To understand Gurbani and to abide by it is the true meaning of following a Guru.When we start doing so,then we start having ans of each ques. Gur fateh!!! Edited May 23, 2015 by sukrit kaur 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukrit kaur Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 In current times, one branch of Nirankaris, Radhaswamis and Namdharis cannot be classified as sects of Sikhism. They are cults. One of the Radhaswamis so-called guru, used to smoke tobacco, which is a cardinal sin in Sikhism. The basic Sikh principle is to believe in SSGGSJ, as the living form of God. Whatever you think,whatever I think ,Do not matter.The truth doesnt change.Spiritually/bhagti is not related with sampardas,sects,cults it is the journey of an individual.when,anyone reaches any realm or reach sachkhand ,no one says a DDT/AkJ/Radhaswami has made it!! Bhagat kabir jee says he has no religion.Guru sahib will def hug that beloved soul whether its DDT,akj,nirmale,Radhaswami.Guru Nanak patsah gave one message,were one true guru of entire humanity,of sikhs,hindus,muslims.They taught us to Love one Niraankaaar and to start thinking at level of individuals.But still if a sikh is not abiding his teachings,or getting true mesaage of gurbani then,who is responsible for his failure.I have nothing to do whether a person whose guru of sect he belongs to ,used to smoke or not,all matters is what that individual/person is doing now.Same in case of sikhs.So manyyyyyy sikhs still are non veg,drunkards..So what about them?? It's all story of an individual.What about Nihangs who eat meat???what about a person who is a non sikh but still follows rules of sikhism.No one knows,when he will get a chance to meet sache patsah or will be a greatttt sikh/saint in his next birth.And same sikh who has no true love comes again and again in so many births. I dont know any thing about cults,sects or sampardas.All are MAN MADE.. In entire GURBANi,the story is of an individual irrespective of any caste,religion,sect.One who abides by it is the trur winner and a true Sikh. Who knows If I ,you were a muslim or Radhaswami in previous life.But due to any kamai,we are now in sikhism.But still If we waste our time blaming this and that ,then it will a great SIN.All depends upon our love.Our Love towards Nirannkaar/sache patsah/Guru nanak patsah/sggsj.I'm not a Hater.Hatred is not a principle of sikhism.. hey sache patsahh!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Exactly!!!! We are sikhs,very fortunate souls,SGGSJ as our Guru,and yes there is no one greater than a true Guru. But somewhere I guess you took me in wrong manner.I dont want to argue about SGGSJ.I was just explaining about a human Guru.In my view,Guru is a teacher,who helps us to meet nirankar.And ten Guru's and SGGSJ are not only Teachers/Gurus for me now.They are Nirankaar for me.All.the goal of my life is to meet them,in any sarroop coz their jot is one.They are God.So A teacher(We were reffering guru)/saint/brahmgyani is needed to help us so that we can meet our sache patsah.If one has great desire to meet Guru Nanak patsah or Guru Ramdass patsah,then it means he is yearing to meet Nirankar.So They are not only limited to the world Guru.Okay we take Guru as Nirankaar,then better use the word teacher/saint/Saadu. Gurbani says Mil SAadu Akathhh kathayaaa tha.. So a teacher a jot who has already merged with nirankar,helps us to meet our satnirankar/sache paysah/Guru Nanak patsah/Guru Ramdass patsah.. Guru definitely has different meanings. Guru can refer to your math teacher too. A Brahamgyani can also be called a guru. But, in my humble opinion, one must never equate anyone to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj. Like for example, Srimaan Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Maharaaj Kaleranwale was a Gurmukh Brahamgyani, but if someone claims that he is equal to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj, that would not be right in a sense. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee jee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) to get braham gian you neead a satguru who will help you. guru granth sahib (for sikh) can only help you to become brahamgiani no one else can help a sikh Good point. To attain Brahamgyan, two conditions have to be met. Firstly, the recpetor has to have pooran shardha (blind faith) in his guru. Secondly, the guru has to be pooran. If any one of the conditions is not met, Brahamgyan cannot be attained. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 23, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 i think namdharis are sikhs beacouse they belive in guru nanak to guru gobind singh sahib the do follow strict instruction of there guru. they are sikhs of guru nanak but not of guru gobind singh. there is a sect of namdhari there head thakur daleep singh is trying to unite the khalsa Namdhari/Kookay is a cult. They cannot be classified as Sikhs. They do not believe that tenth master passed on the gurgaddi to SSGGSJ (fundamental belief in Sikhsim). Having said that, Srimaan Baba Raam Singh jee Namdhari was a great saint of the Khalsa panth. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 So manyyyyyy sikhs still are non veg,drunkards..So what about them?? They cannot be classifed as Sikhs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Whatever you think,whatever I think ,Do not matter.The truth doesnt change.Spiritually/bhagti is not related with sampardas,sects,cults it is the journey of an individual.when,anyone reaches any realm or reach sachkhand ,no one says a DDT/AkJ/Radhaswami has made it!! Bhagat kabir jee says he has no religion.Guru sahib will def hug that beloved soul whether its DDT,akj,nirmale,Radhaswami.Guru Nanak patsah gave one message,were one true guru of entire humanity,of sikhs,hindus,muslims. One cannot put DDT and Nirmalay (Sikh sects) in the same category, as that of Radhaswamis (separate religion/sub-religion). Edited May 23, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Paapiman you are slinging the term cult around again... I don't think you actually know what a cult is... Just because someone disagrees with you on some things, does not make them a cult. sukrit kaur is right, sects etc are MAN MADE. God made only "human" There are human who have attained full awareness of God within themselves, without any 'Guru' in that case I guess Guru would have been their own intuition? But basically the answer is inside every one of us. You do not have to be a DDT or Nihang to attain this level. And its not *dependent* upon reading anything. Yes we have SGGSJ, and the Gurus... who gave us teaching how to achieve it. But that doesnt mean some people have not already achieved it on their own. For example... a math teacher teaches students how to do calculus. They show and guide easy way to do it and understand. But some people have figured it out without any tutor or teacher at all because their minds just attuned to it and they just instinctively understood it. The students the teacher taught and the ones who arrived on their own, both likely did the same equations... its just that some people instinctively are born already with a high level of spiritual understanding and can find their own way easily... while others still require a lot of guidance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 I'm not a Hater.Hatred is not a principle of sikhism.. hey sache patsahh!!!! Hatred is different from, stating the truth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukrit kaur Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Truth is always not what we read , listen from man made sources or it's not what we accept or what we believe in. Hatred is different from, stating the truth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Truth is always not what we read , listen from man made sources or it's not what we accept or what we believe in. Gurbani is the truth. ਕਾਚੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੂਆ ॥ Through a false guru, liberation is not found. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramgharia Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 papiman veerji but namdhari respect guru granth sahib too. i had seen thakur daleep singh ( present leader of namdhari faith[jeevan nagar] ) bow down to guru granth sahib and he is trying to unite the panth. Namdharis had given shaheedi to stop the bucherkhana which was made near harmandir sahib by britishers. they give full respect to women not like ddt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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