Islamic dawa?

[chatanga1]

​A Mother should NOT be seen as higher than the Father that's what I am saying... they are BOTH parents and should BOTH be respected equally by their kids. 

​whether you see it as not is up to you. In Panjabi/Sanskrit culture the mother is seen as "Rabb da roop". We have the terms maa, maa-boli, and maa-dharti in our culture .

 

Gyani Kartar Singh Klass walia has also written a verse in his famous "Dashmesh prakash" about how 10th Guru refrained from war on the orders of his mother.

 

Sikhkhoj don't ask me for a reference.

[chatanga1]

​and is there for his kids, takes them on outings, etc.  He will be respected just as much as they respect their Mother. 

​and if the mother doesn't do any of these?

[CdnSikhGirl]

​and if the mother doesn't do any of these?

​In my experience, whenever a Father participates he is respected equally to the Mother.  Historically men did not participate in their children's upbringing... that could be a reason why Mother was respected more by the children.  That is not a hard fast rule of nature or God.  If the Father participates equally in their upbringing he will be respected equally.  SImilarly, if a Mother is a horrible Mother and ignores her children while the Dad takes them out and plays with them etc. Then it would be natural that the kids would gravitate more to their Dad... and I have seen it.  

This is not the same as a husband and wife who come together both as adults, and on equal terms.  A husband has not 'raised' his wife.  A Husband has not sacrificed any more for their marriage than she has.  Even if she is a stay at home Mom, her sacrifices are just as valid as his.  A husband and wife SHOULD be seen as equals, not one above the other.  A marriage where one is seen as subordinate to the other would never be a loving partnership in life.  More like a business transaction, or servant / master relationship.  But Gurbani says husband and wife are equal... one soul in two bodies equal.  If they are to become ONE soul... then how can either be seen as 'above' the other or more deserving of respect??

This is where Sikhi is different than Islam because Islam actually comes straight out and says that men are 'a degree above women' and have 'rights over them'.  Sikhi does not say this. At all!

Edited June 11, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

 ​

SO this is DDT's idea of what "OPTIMUM RIGHTS" to women are??? 

- Women being told to bow to husbands to show respect (just because he is a man) while he is not told to do the same to show her equal respect
- Women being told to see their husband as 'God' while he is to see her as only a 'faithful follower'
- Expected to be obedient and subservient to men (because everything is HIS - HIS house etc instead of THEIR home) so he gets final say in all decisions, while she remains a servant in HIS house

of the few taksalis whose houses i have been in, i have never seen any of these. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on where you have seen them? Not read about them but seen them. Thanks.

 

 ​ Less rights than men to perform FULL duties as Khalsa, including Panj Pyaras  (why even become Khalsa then if one is never seen as truly Khalsa - ie: unable to perform ALL duties of Khalsa?)
- Also apparently not allowed to do other seva such as paathi seva, ragee for kirtan, granthi etc. by DDT (It's in the Gurmat Rehet Maryada - every seva states 'Singh')

​You have already recieved answers to these numerous times. it's not our fault if you can't understand them. but why keep throwing up the same vomit here on the forum?

 ​-  Women not being given enough say in leadership positions / say in religious affairs (which is ironically why women have such abysmal 'optimal rights' in the first place 

​At last!

 

This is the first time in weeks you have said anything useful on this forum. Women should be represented more in leadership positions, not only in religious but also political affairs. Jagir Kaur was the head of the SGPC recently and Kiran Deep Kaur is a life member of the SGPC working committee but it's still not enough. During the years of Bhai Amrik Singh's tenure as the head of the AISSF, there was a female wing of the AISSF headed by Bibi Upkar Kaur, the extremely talented wife of Bhai Harminder Singh Sandhu. Bibi Upkar Kaur also became shaheed in Op Bluestar.

 

During a recent update to our local gurdwaras constitution I argued successfully that the constitution should be amended to allow females to take up any committee position. I have also encouraged females to consider joining the future committee and hope that some do.

 ​- Women being kept from performing kirtan, washing sanctum sanctorum with milk, chaur sahib seva, granthi, akhand paath seva, palki sahib seva at Harmandir Sahib (main opposition is DDT / Sant Samaj)

​You have had your answers to these. It's not our fault if you cannot or will not understand them. It is a false statement to say that DT oppose this. If the Taksal had this kind of clout they would have reintroduced Raagmala and Sri Dasam Granth into Sri Akal Takht maryada by now. Not to mention the full reading of Sri Rehras Sahib.

 

Stop telling lies.

[chatanga1]

​In my experience,

The world is NOT bound by your experience!

 

I know a person living abroad from his family, who hasn't seen his children for over a decade, but his children don't disrespect him or love their mother any more because she's there bringing them up.

 

Why are you taking isolated examples as absolutes?

 

And can you copy and paste my personal message to you here or shall I do it? I want the members here to know whether you or I have been telling lies.

 

[chatanga1]

This is not the same as a husband and wife who come together both as adults, and on equal terms.  A husband has not 'raised' his wife.  A Husband has not sacrificed any more for their marriage than she has.  Even if she is a stay at home Mom, her sacrifices are just as valid as his.  A husband and wife SHOULD be seen as equals, not one above the other.  A marriage where one is seen as subordinate to the other would never be a loving partnership in life.  More like a business transaction, or servant / master relationship.  But Gurbani says husband and wife are equal... one soul in two bodies equal.  If they are to become ONE soul... then how can either be seen as 'above' the other or more deserving of respect??

​You ave had your answers to this already. It's not my fault if you are deliberately overlooking them. Stop wasting our time. You are taking the role of Sher, who posts the same drivel over and over at any opportunity.

 

Maybe this really is the time for your last post. Make it a c and p of the message I sent you.

[SikhKhoj]

of the few taksalis whose houses i have been in, i have never seen any of these. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on where you have seen them? Not read about them but seen them. Thanks.

 

 

 

​What a phuddu thing to say. Allowing it in theory does result it being done in practise. You not having seen it or even Satkirin not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen because the DDT Rehat is clearly allowing it. Logical fallacies

 

This is the first time in weeks you have said anything useful on this forum. Women should be represented more in leadership positions, not only in religious but also political affairs. Jagir Kaur was the head of the SGPC recently and Kiran Deep Kaur is a life member of the SGPC working committee but it's still not enough. During the years of Bhai Amrik Singh's tenure as the head of the AISSF, there was a female wing of the AISSF headed by Bibi Upkar Kaur, the extremely talented wife of Bhai Harminder Singh Sandhu. Bibi Upkar Kaur also became shaheed in Op Bluestar.

Upkar Kaur was not Harminder Sandhus wife. She was unmarried. Paramjeet Kaur was Sandhus wife.  

[CdnSikhGirl]

Singh123456777 said that men should have last say in all family decisions because the house etc are all HIS.  

Paapiman has said that Gursikh women bow to Gursikh men because the men deserve more respect than the women do. 

DDT's own RM says that women are to see their husband as God (Parmeshwar) while he is to see her as a faithful follower. 

DDT's own RM states 'Singh' for ALL seva... including Paathi Seva, Chaur Sahib Seva, Granthi, Ragee, even making Karah Prashad, in addition to panj pyaras. 

You can look these up for yourself.  

As for Gurdwara Committees... I am doing what I can. I am actually ON my local Gurdwara committee as treasurer.  Our Gurdwara has also had an entirely female executive several times now (you can look it up online Maritime Sikh Society) There was an article called Taking the bull by the horns an interview with the President at the time was a female and all other positions were female as well. 

These seva at Harmandir Sahib being reserved for men only is rubbish.  That needs to change.  As does the attitude of males automatically thinking they have say over what women can or can not do.  More female leadership will change this.  

Panj Pyaras issue is a big grey area.  There is no proof either way as to what Guru Ji wanted.  Gurbani only says see all with a single eye of equality.  Everything is being interpreted through cultural spectacles.  This needs to change.  Even DDT themselves acknowledge that:

My post about 'optimum rights' was aimed at Paapiman because his obvious stance on the position of women through his various posts on this site.  I was putting them all in one summary for him.  Because he claims all of these things, but makes the statement that 'Gurmat' offers 'optimum' rights for women. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Here you go... 

 

"

you wanted to leave and only stayed because you were asked to stay. Can't you go because :

a - you wanted to

b - because you are being asked to.

 

I am sure there are other feminist  centric places you can go.

 

[chatanga1]

 

​What a phuddu thing to say. Allowing it in theory does result it being done in practise. You not having seen it or even Satkirin not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen because the DDT Rehat is clearly allowing it. Logical fallacies

​khoj dont say stupid things here, it doesn't make you clever or hard. stupid yes.

Women being toid to bow to husbands? Never seen it ever in taksali or non-taksali houses. ever.

 

​Upkar Kaur was not Harminder Sandhus wife. She was unmarried. Paramjeet Kaur was Sandhus wife.  

see, you are more than the cheap words you like to use. Thanks for the correction. To my knowledge Sandhu was married twice. His first wife became shaheed in bluestar.

[Guest]

Guys, please avoid personal name calling/attacks, take it off site if you feel so strongly against each other.

[chatanga1]

 I was also asked (more like told) in private message to leave the forum by another member (chatanga) because he doesn't wish to see female opinions on here.

​

Here you go... 

"

you wanted to leave and only stayed because you were asked to stay. Can't you go because :

a - you wanted to

b - because you are being asked to.

 

I am sure there are other feminist  centric places you can go.

​Ok, thank you . Now please show where you were "told" to go and where I had written that I don't widh to see any females opinions on here. Kindly make that you last post, even though I have already asked you before.

[chatanga1]

Guys, please avoid personal name calling/attacks, take it off site if you feel so strongly against each other.

​this khoj guy has definitely got issues.

 

Or maybe he like satkirn and sher, think that by derailing topics they will get them closed so they don't have to answer relevant questions.

[Guest]

I request our members to stay on topic. If this topic relates to Islamic dawa lets stick to the topic lets not bring sikhi related off-topics.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Which questions would those be? I think I have done a great job of supporting my answers with actual Gurbani... not the usual drivel of 'such and such baba said... therefore it must be true' type of answers.  

Gurbani is our highest authority is it not? Please show me in Gurbani - in our only Guru - Guru Granth Sahib JI - where it says women should be limited in any way at all compared to men. 

Rehet Maryadas aside - which I have also shown in the case of GRM is huge grey area because nowhere even in DDTs own RM does it say women should be restricted at all in any way.  It's only circumstantial based on the usage of the word 'Singh' but since its used for every seva, that means either DDT 1) do not allow women to do any seva at all or 2) they are using Singh to mean both Singh and Singhni similarly to man being used for mankind (both male and female). 

I have always supported my answers with Gurbani and facts.  

Page 599, Line 2
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

It doesn't say look at only males with single eye of equality... nor is it implied.  

Anyway this is completely off topic as the subject is Islam.  Which very much DOES outright state in Quran that women are beneath men.  So at least they are practicing what their scripture says.  One does not have to go far on youtube to see many videos of Islamic scholars stating that men have every right to 'beat' their wives into submission... This is what I am sure Paapiman was alluding to with his 'Islam has a good way to deal with women' comment...  though to be fair, they usually say it shouldn't be a beating so hard as to leave marks.  However, the psychological scars from any beating, marks or not, would be huge. 

 

[SikhKhoj]

Chatangea, its written in Taksal book. You not having seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it is allowed in theory... 

And if showing logical fallacies make me stupid then proud to be stupid.

Again, 'it doesn't happen because I didn't see it'. Isn't that a stupid thing to say?

And yes, Sandhu did have 2 wives, the first one became Shaheed during Blue Star.

Edited June 11, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[paapiman]

Gurbani is our highest authority is it not? Please show me in Gurbani - in our only Guru - Guru Granth Sahib JI - where it says women should be limited in any way at all compared to men. 

​Again, you have received the answer in the past.

Gurmat has given optimum rights to both, men and women.

Physical birth (after impregnation) - Women

Spiritual birth - Men

Parents - Mother's status higher than a Father

Spouse - Husband's status higher than a wife

In Islam, mothers are greatly respected too.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited June 12, 2015 by paapiman

[Crystal]

 

.

​Thanks to all for going off topic 

 

Crystal

[CdnSikhGirl]

And where is this written Paapiman?  I said SHOW ME IN GURBANI. GURBANI is ABOVE any man made maryada. 

This is someone's own interpretation and not truth.  Husband should not have status higher than his wife. If thats how it was I would never get married simply out of principle! Because I would never want to be second status to someone. How could a husband and wife have a loving relationship as a couple, if one was always made to feel lower status than the other? It would not feel like an equal partnership that its supposed to be and instead would feel like a business proposition, or master / servant relationship. That is NOT how marriage should be.  One should NOT be made to feel inferior to the other or have lesser status. That's just WRONG and you know its wrong. You are just trying to grasp straws to justify it because you believe personally that you are superior to women.

And Spiritual birth does not take gender.  Spiritual birth is about SPIRIT - which is GENDERLESS. Makes no sense that a penis would be required!  Tell me how a penis is needed for spiritual birth??? 

Parents should BOTH be respected equally. Not one over the other.  

This is a cultural thing and not religion thing. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Crystal]

GOD HELP YOUR HUSBAND/LOVER/MAN/PERSON/THING/COMPANION/FRIEND...what ever you want to call your partner SK....he is in for an ear full I kid you not.

[Crystal]

Without a penis you would not be here today...I guess you have ONE THING to be thankful to a penis for?.

 

Crystal

[CdnSikhGirl]

GOD HELP YOUR HUSBAND/LOVER/MAN/PERSON/THING/COMPANION/FRIEND...what ever you want to call your partner SK....he is in for an ear full I kid you not.

​Why because we consider each other equals?

Why is it bad for him if we see each other on same level instead of me being his slave / servant / subservient / inferior?  We make decisions together, and he fully supports me in everything, including leadership positions. He does not expect me to be in any way his inferior, or subservient to him or expect me to give him more respect than he gives me simply because he has the penis.  And he is Amritdhari Sikh too... we will be married in September. (obviously NOT be DDT LOL) 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Crystal]

  My honest opinion of all your posts i have observed. 

 

Crystal

[CdnSikhGirl]

That's really mature ^

[Koi]

​Again, you have received the answer in the past.

Gurmat has given optimum rights to both, men and women.

Physical birth (after impregnation) - Women

Spiritual birth - Men

Parents - Mother's status higher than a Father

Spouse - Husband's status higher than a wife

In Islam, mothers are greatly respected too.

Bhul chuk maaf

Whilst I agree with most of this, I do not agree with the last point about spouse. Why is the husband status higher than a wife? That is completely incorrect with regards to gurmat.