Islamic dawa?

[Crystal]

Dear SA

 

While shopping on my break I observed Muslims preaching words from the Quran and trying to convince passers that Islam is the truth.

 

When has this tradition of dawa originate?

why do Muslims feel like its their duty to brainwash others about their religion?

What makes muslims believe their faith is the chosen one and must be embraced by all?

 

I would post in Islam section  but I want this topic to get most attentionattention here.

 

Crystal.

[chatanga1]

When has this tradition of dawa originate?

​its to do with a hadith of the holy prophet of islam "when you have discovered the truth do not keep it concealed to yourself but reveal it to others."

[amardeep]

Its an old tradition similiar to christians where it is a duty of every individual to spread their faith.

[Crystal]

​its to do with a hadith of the holy prophet of islam "when you have discovered the truth do not keep it concealed to yourself but reveal it to others."

Chatanga, do you believe he was a holy prophet? 

 

For one I don't believe how a holy man can have sexual relations with a little girl as quoted in their texts. Or have the followers gone astray ?

 

What I believe should be said is how Islam believes it is the duty of a Muslim to go and spread Islam to us non believers however their own pond is not clean. Killing and persecutions of non Muslims, rape of their women. I don't believe how god could instruct anyone to spread the name of their faith in that way.

 

Crystal

[paapiman]

For one I don't believe how a holy man can have sexual relations with a little girl as quoted in their texts. Or have the followers gone astray ?

 

​He was a holy man. There is no doubt about it.

Bhul chuk maaf.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Women are lowly in Islam (and I am starting to think also in Sikhi) and it states such outright in Islam.  Men are allowed to beat their wives into submission in Islam, and women are compared to a "field" that Muslim men are allowed to "plow" however they want and whenever they want.  So they don't have any problems doing those things to women.  I find it very very difficult to believe he was in any way holy just from the above alone but there is far more.   

I am not surprised that Paapiman would think he was a holy man either, because Paapima's view of women is not much higher than what Islam affords to women.  Just see one of his recent posts where he made the comment about Islam having a good way to 'deal with women'.  Also see his posts where he says women should show 'uttmost respect' to men (simply because they are men) by bowing to them and seeing them as demi gods.  This is what Paapiman considers 'optimum respect' given to women (his words).  In fact Islam has a very similar statement saying that Muhammad if he had anyone 'prostrating' to anyone it would be the wives to their husbands, since women are so beneath men.   Just how far beneath men? One Islamic scholar actually said that if the husband was dripping in pus from head to toe and she licked it all off with her tongue she would still never come anywhere near the level he has over her. 

 

As for why they do this in the streets, Quran tells them to convert or kill the unbelievers.  They are even instructed that its ok to lie to people to sway them to Islam! (yup, look it up!)

 

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[SikhKhoj]

Paapi, on one hand you claim to be a Taksal and Bhindranwale lover and believer in Dasam Granth but on the other hand you are respecting Muhammad. Gurbachan Singh clearly says in his Katha that Muhammad stole the Quran from a Hindu Sadhu. How can a thief be a prophet?

Satkirin, don't let 2 individuals influence your view that Sikhi does not believe in equality for men and women. I don't know why you keep coming up with that because historically and theologically this gender discrimination is not part of our faith.

[SikhKhoj]

I see too many hippy Sikhs rejecting Sikhis missionary spirit nowadays. Perhaps they should familiarize themselves with the concepts of Manjis, preachers set out by the Gurus to different parts in Asia & the countless references in Gurbani to 'aap japeh avreh naam japavai' & other tuks hinting towards the need of telling people about the truth.

Our way of 'preaching' differs in the sense that we not claim exclusivity to the Truth, nor do we apply force to gain converts (Islam) nor do we bribe people to change their religions (Islam & Christianity). We also do not take advantages of natural disasters to spread our religion either because we believe in Nishkam Seva (Christian missionaries were rejoicing at the current Nepal disaster because it was 'a God given oppertunity to bless Nepalis with Christs message').

[chatanga1]

Chatanga, do you believe he was a holy prophet? 

​Tongue in cheek.

[paapiman]

​He was a holy man. There is no doubt about it.

Bhul chuk maaf.

​Islam has produced some great warriors and saints. Two of the Bhagats (who in a sense are equal to our Satgurus) were born in Muslim families. We also have Hazrat Mian Mir jee, who was a famous Sehajdhari Sikh of Satguru jee.

I don't think, if Islam was a false religion, these men could have attained such high spiritual states.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

One Islamic scholar actually said that if the husband was dripping in pus from head to toe and she licked it all off with her tongue she would still never come anywhere near the level he has over her. 

​Can you please provide references? Is the above mentioned in the Quran?

[paapiman]

As for why they do this in the streets, Quran tells them to convert or kill the unbelievers.  They are even instructed that its ok to lie to people to sway them to Islam! (yup, look it up!)

 

​Again, can you please provide references?

[paapiman]

Paapi, on one hand you claim to be a Taksal and Bhindranwale lover and believer in Dasam Granth but on the other hand you are respecting Muhammad. Gurbachan Singh clearly says in his Katha that Muhammad stole the Quran from a Hindu Sadhu. How can a thief be a prophet?

​I am not a Taksaali.

What does belief in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, have to do with respecting Hazrat Muhammad saab? Can you please elaborate?

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited June 9, 2015 by paapiman

[SikhKhoj]

Gurbachan Bhindran said Muhammad was a liar and killed the Sadhu from whom he stole Quran. And you call him holy. Paapi, why the hypocrisy? 

You know what Gurbani says about hypocrites? You lovingly adopt Gurbachans stance on Guru Har Rai Patshahs marriages or other dumb things then why do you ignore what the so called Mahapurakh, rab roop, Gurbachan Su said about Muhammad?

And read Dasam Granth to know more about what I meant. Bachittar Natak for a start maybe.

[CdnSikhGirl]

​Again, can you please provide references?

On Lying:

​http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

Regarding men's rights over her:

"The Messanger of Allaah (S.A.W.) said, “It is not right that any human being should prostrate to another human being I would have ordered the woman to prostrate to her husband due to the greatness of his rights upon her. By Him in whose Hand is my soul, if from his foot to the crown of his head there was a wound pouring forth pus, and she (the wife) came and licked that, then she would (still) not have fulfilled his right.” (Ahmad)"

 

 

[Ragmaala]

Women are lowly in Islam (and I am starting to think also in Sikhi) ..

​Its unfortunate if you are starting to think like this.  So, what can you or you going to do about it ?

Do you see a better religion/alternative for women who are interested in Spirituality ? If you do , please enlighten your female sisters so that they can follow you & join you.

Maybe you can start your own cult/religion which is exclusive only to women, and started by a woman.

Your above comment is just absolutely ridiculous. lol.

[CdnSikhGirl]

If you need further evidence...how can one read Quran and NOT think women are considered lowly compared to men??

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/010-women-worth-less.htm

The Qur'an: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established. Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they would make more reliable witnesses. Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands). Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse). Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse, which it has been used historically to justify. If this is what Muhammad meant, however, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365). Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers. Qur'an (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male. Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

From the Hadith:   Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"   Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.   Bukhari (2:29) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).   Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'" In other words, the most important thing a woman brings to marriage is between her legs.   Bukhari (62:58) - A woman presents herself in marriage to Muhammad, but he does not find her attractive, so he "donates" her on the spot to another man.   Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'" These are the words of Muhammad's favorite wife, complaining of the role assigned to women under Islam.   Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."   Abu Dawud (2155) - Women are compared to slaves and camels with regard to the "evil" in them.   Ishaq 593 - "As for Ali, he said, 'Women are plentiful, and you can easily change one for another.'" Ali was raised as a son by Muhammad. He was also the 4th caliph. This comment was made in Muhammad's presence without a word of rebuke from him.   Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another." - Even in this world, Muhammad treated women like party favors, handing out slave girls to his cronies for sex.   Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Muhammad traded captured women for horses.   Al-Tirmidhi 3272 - "When Allah's Messenger was asked which woman was best he replied, 'The one who pleases (her husband) when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives a command, and does not go against his wishes regarding her person or property by doing anything of which he disapproves'."   Tabari VIII:117 - The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims."   Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty."   Ishaq 969 - "Men were to lay injunctions on women lightly, for they were prisoners of men and had no control over their persons." - This same text also justifies beating women for flirting.   Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves." From Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon'.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Koi]

Gurbachan Bhindran said Muhammad was a liar and killed the Sadhu from whom he stole Quran. And you call him holy. Paapi, why the hypocrisy? 

You know what Gurbani says about hypocrites? You lovingly adopt Gurbachans stance on Guru Har Rai Patshahs marriages or other dumb things then why do you ignore what the so called Mahapurakh, rab roop, Gurbachan Su said about Muhammad?

And read Dasam Granth to know more about what I meant. Bachittar Natak for a start maybe.

Debates aside, show some respect when talking of Mahapurkh Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji. Just because you can disrespect someone, doesn't mean you should. 

[SAadmin]

Sikh kosh has been requested in the past, before to show basic respect to giani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale if not address them as sant- atleast gyani gurbachan singh singh. Please comply with our request.

[SikhKhoj]

Whatever

Bhai Gurbachan Singh DDT, happy?

Edited June 9, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[Ragmaala]

If you need further evidence...how can one read Quran and NOT think women are considered lowly compared to men??

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/010-women-worth-less.htm

​Indeed the position of women in Islam is not good.

But you shouldn't say that you are starting to think that position of women in Sikhi is lowly also. Women in Sikhi & Islam are miles apart.

[CdnSikhGirl]

They are miles apart. 

But some members on here inch towards how Islam sees women, and are imposing those beliefs over Sikhi.  

(women bowing to their husbands, seeing their husband as God, expected to be ever obedient to men, staying at home and being a domestic servant to their husband, not having full rights in Sikhi in some sects for performing duties of Khalsa like Panj Pyaras, suggestions by some that women were never even meant to be part of Khalsa to begin with and that it was only done so the women could cook (be a servant to) their husbands, women seen as 'dirty' during menstruation and having yet more restrictions placed on their ability to perform religious duties, not being given enough leadership positions in the faith and hence not having an equal say in religious affairs, being kept from performing kirtan, palki sahib seva, chaur sahib seva, akhand paaths etc at Harmandir Sahib under the pretense of 'tradition', being told by Singhs that they should wear salwar kameez etc all the time and not jeans etc, even when those same Singhs are wearing jeans while saying it)  I could go on and on... while its a far cry from Islam, some members on here are inching very close to Islam's views of women... making statements like 'Islam has a good way to deal with women' (paapiman - because he is frustrated that a woman might actually have an opinion and he was referring to how Islam allows men to beat their wives into submission for insubordination). I was also asked (more like told) in private message to leave the forum by another member (chatanga) because he doesn't wish to see female opinions on here.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

If you need further evidence...how can one read Quran and NOT think women are considered lowly compared to men??

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/010-women-worth-less.htm

​Do you know, who has translated the above verses? This website seems to be a hate promoting website. Promoting hate is a big sin in Sikhism. Please refrain from posting from such websites, in the future.

Have you talked with an Islamic scholar, regarding the above mentioned verses?

There are certain tuks in Gurbani, that can also be misinterpreted.

For example,

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਪਿ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥੭੧॥

The head which does not bow to the Lord - chop off and remove that head. ||71||

The above tuk can be easily misinterpreted, so as to mean, kill all the non-believers.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited June 10, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Unfortunately those verses are well known and not misinterpreted Paapiman.  Those interpretations ARE from Muslim scholars.  

[paapiman]

Unfortunately those verses are well known and not misinterpreted Paapiman.  Those interpretations ARE from Muslim scholars.  

Gurparsaad, ​I will try to find the meanings of these verses.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2015 by paapiman