is it wrong to marry a non sikh?...

[Noor]

Why were posts deleted??

Alrite BabbarSher your right, I'm wrong. Happy?

I'm not gonna sit here and keep arguing about why I believe in inter-religion marriages being alrite. I dont have all the answers to your questions. All I know is that I have seen them work and I believe they can/do work. Between two very religious people they might not, but between others they do.

And maybe thats it... maybe I aint as religious as you.

[Guest]

Your post are not deleted Ji. But i have spillitted this topic into two topics. Second topic can be found under this section as well "One being called Sikh" thats a tittle.. have a look

[BabbarSher]

<<Alrite BabbarSher your right, I'm wrong. Happy? >>

I am really very sad , that you have taken the approach about wining and loosing. I can see that right throughout, the discussion you have had this preconcieved notion in your mind about interreligion marriages being alrite.

I think you also need to define the word alrite here. If it is physical/mental context..of course it is going to be ok. The objection occurs only in case of matters of spirit, I belive.

You had in your discussion mentioned, the following:

"Good points? Back them up with exact quotes from Guru Granth Sahib and then others can decide if they are 'good' points or a bunch of bs."

Funny thing, that we dont query the Guru Granth Sahib for other physical matters. The prime objective of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is matters of the spirit and that has been the focus throughout. Pointers have been given on other matters of importance (physical) and it has been left to the sikhs to use their intelligence to decipher these and the spirtual (with help of Bhai Gurdas Ji's writings).

Funny again that despite some people including myself quoting from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you did not agree with the views given by KS.

Again as a response to my post, you said, self assumingly :

"do you want a Nirgura to answer your questions"

When I requested, you say you dont have the answers.

I am not sure how to take this. Whether in the right spirit, or whether I have offended the beliefs of someone and they are so upset, that they find it better no to respond.

Dear Young Lady......the aim of a discussion is not to declare any winners and losers or for that matter showcase the upperhand. We are not having a declamation contest here at sikhawareness.com. The moderators are not going to declare any winners or losers and neither are the people who come to makethe posts here.

<<I'm not gonna sit here and keep arguing about why I believe in inter-religion marriages being alrite.>>

We gave you our reasons. and we only ask you for your reasons. Belief is onething, reaons is another. Why I even have a young cousin, of mine who thinks premarital sex is perfectly ok. I m,ean this is his belief, yet he is not able to give me any valid reason whatsoever.

Please let me clarify that i am not comapring you with my cousin. (perhaps I am not a good communicator, and sometimes our words, phrases, sentences can convey the wrong meaning to others)

<<All I know is that I have seen them work and I believe they can/do work>>

Yes at a physical level/mental level alone. If both partners are devout religious people, there are going to be conflicts. You can only follow one path, though both may lead to same destination..God.

So you would say, let them.....follow different paths.

OK, so that means they are not partners in the spirtual journey. I think definately contradicts this defination of husband and wife as given in Gurbani.

Also, it seems a bit weird though that I am fully with the person, in matters physical and of mind, yet when I want to start y religious journey, may partner is not with me.

It is ok if you dont have the answers to the questions I posed. These questions are meant for introspection (though I would have liked to hear from you on this).

It is also sad that you start jumping to conclusions- you yourself say, I am a lesser sikh, I am a Nirgura, I am less religious. Really I am lost for words onw what to say on this.

You seemed to be ..as they say in Punjabi ..a bit 'Chidi' hoyi. ..so cool down..

The aim of any logical discussion is to discuss and to change one's views if they fail, the test of discussion.

[Noor]

BabbarSher - Your right. I'm sorry I assumed something that wasnt there. I guess I got a bit fed up having to defend why I believe what I do.

But I'm going to try to answer your questions as best as I can according to my beliefs, and although I do not agree with the marriage issue..I still do have nothing but love and respect for Waheguru and all of our Guru jis.. just I guess its in a different way then others.

I had sometime ago heard of a quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which I am giving below:

It is by Guru Amar Dass Ji and he gives a definition of Husband and Wife:

mÚ 3 ]

Third Mehl:

mÚ 3 ]

mehlaa 3.

Dn ipru eyih n AwKIAin bhin iekTy hoie ]

They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.

Dn ip{ Eih n AwKIAin bhin ekTy hoe ]

Dhan pir ayhi na aakhee-an bahan ikthay ho-ay.

eyk joiq duie mUrqI Dn ipru khIAY soie ]3]

They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3||

Ek joiq due mUrqI Dn ip{ khIEy soe ]3]

ayk jot du-ay moortee Dhan pir kahee-ai so-ay. ||3||

As you can see.....in the light of Gurbaani, Husband and Wife are one light in two bodies. Such is the relationship advocated by Gurbaani.

^When I read this quote.. I thought, could it maybe mean that both the husband and wife should believe in God but not necessarily in the same way? Could the light mean belief in one God creating all mankind and seeing all ppl equally? You would spiritually connect with someone if their belief was the same as that and so was yours, regardless of religious customs.

Because this is what I believe. This is how I would interpret this quote if I read it myself without anyone else's input.

Now when we talk about inter-religious marriages, I am of the opinion that it is tough to have the relationship advocated above. The reasone being that religion is to do with the spirit. It has to do with the belief, with the faith.

Lets take an example of different religions. I would like to ask you a few questions and ascertain for your self the truth of whether religions differ !

1. Jews: Who according to Judaism is a true Jew ? What is the ultimate word of God ? Is God jealous of the other dieties ? What are the qualities of God ? Who is entitiled to meet God?

2. Christians: Who is the only son of God? Who is our only saviour in this world? Since Christianity is all about love (like Christians say) OR do we have to go to this saviour still ? Who is entitiled to meet God?

3. Muslims: What is the perfect religion? Who is the best and the ultimate prophet of God? Can we be saved through any other prophet? What do we have to say to meet God ..kalim? Is it ok to just praise God..and love our fellow human beings ...or do we need to do anything more than that?

4. Buddhism: Is there any God? If not what is the purpose of our existence? If we are not going to meet him because u are silent on this issue....whats the prpose of living a good life.....we might as well freak out each time we come back through reincarnation?

Whatever the answers, you will realise that all the above mentioned religions are different in their views

^Of course religions differ. Bhaji.. I never said they didnt, if I did it was my mistake :?

Sikhism is on the other hand a unifying religion. Why ? Because the Gurus choose not to mock the other religions before them? They only criticised the stupid practices of these religions. The Gurus instead of focussing on converting' date=' asked these people to delve into their religion and go into the spirtual aspect and practise it, keeping their faith in their prophets. [/quote']

^See thats what I love about Sikhism, that it is a unifying religion. And that is why even with the quotes provided, I dont understand why marriages between different faiths arent allowed. Sure such marriages are much more difficult than ones of the same faith, but each person should be able to have this choice, no?

^Thinking all people are equal no matter what their religion, and respecting your partner's religion and being open about differences, respecting each other's views .. this would allow for both to connect spiritually, wouldnt it?

Yes I understand both wouldnt be able to connect spiritually with Sikhism, or the other religion, only one of them would (with the religion they are following).. but to respect another religion and have tolerance for it, isnt that a good thing?

Well thats what I believe.

^Such things would have to be discussed before the marriage. The husband and wife would have to make their opinions known and still be able to respect the other religion. Because yes, otherwise there would be problems in the marriage regarding such things.

But what about when a Sikh girl is married to a 'Sikh' guy and he turns out to be completely different after marriage, cheats on her, starts drinking etc and vice versa. Can those two connect on a spiritual level?

^My view on this is that many 'love' marriages are not supported by parents and thus many problems result from just this. These marriages would have the same 50/50 chance if parents and society were more supportive. All we need is a little understanding amongst people.

[BabbarSher]

Nice, well thought replies. I have been away fro the weekend, so should be remarking/explaining my position in a couple of days. :-)

[BabbarSher]

^When I read this quote.. I thought, could it maybe mean that both the husband and wife should believe in God but not necessarily in the same way? Could the light mean belief in one God creating all mankind and seeing all ppl equally? You would spiritually connect with someone if their belief was the same as that and so was yours, regardless of religious customs.

Because this is what I believe. This is how I would interpret this quote if I read it myself without anyone else's input.

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Noor. If we were to agree with you, there would have been NO NEED for the Sikh Gurus to start a new religion…a nirmal panth.

It is another thing that they did not choose the path of ridiculing other religions unnecessarily. It’s another things that did not choose the path of fighting other religions to enforce their own viewpoints. But yes they did criticize the practices of the other religion. So why did they do what they did.

They did it because the religions of the yore were corrupted beyond repair. That is why they compose Guru Granth Sahib Ji during their own lifecycle.

I DON’T think the explanation you have given is correct.

There are now TWO ways to believe in God, cause God is one. One’s own spiritual beliefs (belief in the prophets, Gurus …whatever you may call it) may be different.

Well I am not saying you cannot connect with other people having a different belief. Didn’t the Gurs connect with the Sufis. BUT then we should also wonder….the Gurus never did acknowledge Mohammed as the seal of prophets, nor did they read the kalima……

Don’t we all have muslim, hindu, Christian friends. But I believe marriage is different.

It is meeting of two bodies, two minds and two souls. The action of sexual intercourse itself is one of the most fascinating action and a very unique one (I am a virgin..still..but I have read a lot ..so I think this would be true).

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^Of course religions differ. Bhaji.. I never said they didnt, if I did it was my mistake

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See Religions differ. Say I am married to a Hindu girl. Now as a sikh I should not make her convert to my religion, cause I should respect here religion.

So every morning she does Pooja, as given in her religion.

I on the other hand would do path and do vichaar of Guru Granth sahib Ji.

Don you think this is where the conflict would arise. My Guru says that there is nothing like idolatry and it is completely useless and should NOT be practiced. Yet my own life and soul mate practices it.

So what should I do…shall I follow what my Guru says…OR shall I follow what my heart says and not criticize her practices.

Now if she stops her religious practices, she wont be a Hindu anymore.

If we both stop our religious practices, we are following no religion.

So there is a conflict as far as spiritual aspects are concerned.

I can give you many more examples/scenarios/combinations if I have not been able to make my point.

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^See thats what I love about Sikhism, that it is a unifying religion. And that is why even with the quotes provided, I dont understand why marriages between different faiths arent allowed. Sure such marriages are much more difficult than ones of the same faith, but each person should be able to have this choice, no?

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Yes, but can I wake up every morning to hear my muslim wife’s Kalima. For evry time she reads the kalima, I am reminded that I am a Kafir nonetheless according to her faith.

What would go inside her mind, when she knows that I am a Kafir, that there is no solace for me unless I accept Islam and read the kalima. That the doors of hell will engulf me …according to her Prophet.

How would she feel when I tell her that Judgment Day, a concept central to Islam, is nothing bur gibberish. That our founder criticized it ?

That there are no angels……so that raise a question on the very origin of Quran, the base of Islam ??

These are very practical, introspecting question.

Again If I and she ignore all this, then we are neither Muslims, nor Sikhs … as per our religion.

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^Thinking all people are equal no matter what their religion, and respecting your partner's religion and being open about differences, respecting each other's views .. this would allow for both to connect spiritually, wouldnt it?

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I think I explained above, with some examples.

Yes I understand both wouldnt be able to connect spiritually with Sikhism, or the other religion, only one of them would (with the religion they are following).. but to respect another religion and have tolerance for it, isnt that a good thing?

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It defiantly is a good thing. Again, I think I covered the point above.

^Such things would have to be discussed before the marriage. The husband and wife would have to make their opinions known and still be able to respect the other religion. Because yes, otherwise there would be problems in the marriage regarding such things.

But what about when a Sikh girl is married to a 'Sikh' guy and he turns out to be completely different after marriage, cheats on her, starts drinking etc and vice versa. Can those two connect on a spiritual level?

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NO. An absolute NO. But then he is NOT a sikh. Sikhism was meant to be a religion where everyone would be true to the Guru and God.

Girls and guys both compromise on such things.

For e.g. the ideal guy for many gals would be – choclate, cleane shaven, bollywood style guys……

And for boys would be glamorous, heroine style gals.

How can you expect such people to be true to sikhi then.

Noor, it is all about hypocrisy. If we give up hypocrisy while selecting a partner, I think we will get the right partner.

A true amritdhari/sikh marrying a true amritdhaari/sikh wouldn’t face such problems.

the problem above can also happen in intercaste, inter religion, love, arranged marriage...

^My view on this is that many 'love' marriages are not supported by parents and thus many problems result from just this. These marriages would have the same 50/50 chance if parents and society were more supportive. All we need is a little understanding amongst people.

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Noor. I am not sure how old you are. But I am about 28 years old, and although It my seem like blowing my own horn and possibly you could be more experienced, I believe that the conditions in my life have cause me to learn a lot from a lot of different type of people.

I have seen people madly in love (no offence …but it is more or less sexual attraction with …some other factors..like money etc,. thrown in). supported by their parents, yet tearing apart.

When people come together, they only notice the positives of a person. Hence everything seems so cool. But after you have spent sometime, the negatives take over. The expectations created by the positives are not fulfilled and the marriage begins drifting apart.

^Big generalization. Not always true. Speaking for myself, its not true at all. Sometimes it is the personality which makes the appearance look good. And as they say 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'.

Its good Noor, that you have such high views. Keep em up and don’t let hypocrisy near you. However the generalization is very pertinent. Please take a look around you and you will notice.

Yes. Laila was Kaali…..but Majnu told people…Teri Akh Na Dekhan waali…..your eye doesn’t know how to see her.

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^Well there has to be something to like about the person for it to then develp into something more. You confuse me here. Ok looks I agree with you on, they arent of such importance. But how can personality not count? How else can you develop feelings toward someone?

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So the starting point is sexual attractionn and in most cases it more less culminates here. That’s all I am highlighting.

You can see a beggar and feel compassion, but you wont feel love. And yet still the compassion is based on appearance in this case.

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Compassion to what effect? And had it been Love, then to what effect?

So explain

BabbarSher wrote:

I think love ..and true love transcends all this ..cause if I were to analyse...one can loose mental or physical traits in a second....well even less than a second.

^Yes but there is something there that you love about that person, and then wether its there or gone, it shouldnt matter because that is still the same person. Love shouldnt change because the person loses a physical or mental trait.

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True…

BabbarSher wrote:

Will LOve remain ? Yes if it is true.....cause then u love at a spirtual level and that is the level at which saints love God.... (remember u never loose the spirit).

^Completely agree with you.

^This is why I kept stating that this is not about me and some guy. That reply seemed to be personally made towards me and its ok if it is, but this question was not about me.

But how is one leaving the house of God just because they are marrying a person of a different faith? If that person still believes in Sikhi, then how can you say that they are no longer a part of Sikhism? (that is what your reply implies to me, pls correct me if I am wrong)

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I have given above examples about myself and other girls. :-) SO I hope its all clear.

The conflict is in the faith.

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^Since the Khalsa was formed by Guru Gobind Singh ji... who did the other Guru jis marry? Women of what faith?

No disrespect meant.

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It is a very wrong notion that the Khalsa was founded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Khalsa was founded by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was formalized by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Gurus married people who professed the sikh faith NOT hindus or muslims.

We should look at all the Gurus as a continuum and not as individuals. Sikhi is looked from this point of view becomes easier to understand.

Please also refer to my other post ..by a similar name....

^I agree. Except I believe that as long as one believes in God, the spirit can also become one with the other.

Can you please tell me what the following means..because IF it means what I think it means and what I have been told that it means.... then this is exactly how I feel...

"Aval Allah Noor Upaya Kudrat Ke Sab Bande, Ek Noor Te Sab Jag Upjeya, Kaun Bhalle Ko Mande"

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Yes, it means that all have originated from God and you cannot say that this race is bad, or this person is inferior.

The pointer is towards Muslims and their concept of Momin and Kaafir I think.

But I can’t relate how you give it as explanations for inter religion marriages.

P.S. The Prophet Mohammed married 9 times and had two jewish slave wives.

Why these two Jewish slaves were not accorded the status of wifehood, was because they did not profess Islam.

So I think that clears the muslim point of view of marriage.

Same goes for Jews.

[Asha]

What about if a Sikh marrys a Hindu? Havent Hindus and Sikhs inter-married for centuries? Does the same rules apply here?

[Asha]

most of you are fair Panjabis and not black Hindu "Indians".

Hi MI,

I really do not appreciate you calling my fellow Hindu brothers and sisters that, It sounds rather racist to me. Could you please retract it.

Thanks

PS. I do not know why the moderaters didnt delete that bit. It shouldnt be allowed. :x

[Sukhi]

if u were willing to marry someone who isn't Sikh, there's nothing wrong with that. the problem would come from whether u were willing to compromise on ur religion.

if u r, good for u.

if u rn't, good for u as well.

ur answer to whether u will compromise on bein a Sikh (and ur partner will compromise on their religion) is gonna affect ur marriage regardless of what u may think at the moment. it will affect u in some way at some point in time, even if u're the least religious Sikh in the world and ur significant other is the least religious whatever in the world. these kindsa things seem to have the ability to sneak up on u, and u'll have to deal with it.

personally speaking, i'd think that it would be better to stick to ur own faith as a couple of ppl said. it's easier that way. not to mention all the extreme positions given by a select few as well.

but on the other hand, if u believe that u have found the one u were meant to be with... some tough decisions are gonna have to be made.