Hindu Lies .... What are you going to do about it ?

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

(AS admin has editied what I have written below, I just want to make one point clear I am not anti-Nihang or anti any sampridiya, on the contrary I am 100% support for any Nihang who has stood up against tyranny and fought for the rights of the downtrodden i.e. any True Nihang who has fought the tyrannical Indian Governement Those who are chumpchey are mere sheep in crocodile clothing sell-outs.)

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This is a serious question.

1. Currently there is a serious drugs/nusha problem in punjab. The youth without work and going away from Sikhi have latched onto drugs. There is even alcohol produced which has written on the bottle 'For Punjab only'.

How would the Nangs promoting intoxications deal with this Drugs problem ?

2. Also the Sikh Faith is being attacked by the Right Wing Hindus. They are changing our History and making us out as Warrior-Hindus. They have been several posters of the Sikh Guru's depicted in the 'Cow', there are pictures of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur being depicted as the 'Great Hindu Warrior'. Childrens books in Schools have been changed stating that Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib was Hindu and gave Shaheedi for Hinduism. The Hindu Youth have produced magazines and placed Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Jee as a Hindu Scripture. These are just a few examples.

How would the Nangs promotingHindu Mat deal with this attack from Right Wing Hindus?

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Also this time I have added evidence, that shows what these Blasphemours are up to

On Page 76

They make it out that there is no difference between Sikhs and Hindus and we are created to protect their 'Dharam'

On Page 77

"Bharat Mata (Mother India) was blessed with ten hindu sons"

talking about Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Jee "... sacrificed his life to protect his Hindu Dharam"

about Sri Harmandir Sahib "a fantastic mandir constructed for Bhagavan vishnu"

Page 78

The article carries on its blasphemy by saying that Gurus were hypocrites

Guru Nanak Dev Jee destroyed the caste system, rejected hindu rituals and stood for Truth, yet this idiot writes :

"Baba Nanak was a thorough Hindu in thought, word and deed...."

If you have come across blasphemous bulls**t like this let us know.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

"Jab Lag Khalsa Rehay Niaraa

However long the Khalsa remains distinct

Tab Lag Tej Diho ma saraa

That long I will give them ALL my LIGHT and POWER.

Jab ihaa gehaa bipran kee reet

As soon as they grab the ways of the world (Brahmins)

Ma na karo in kee prateet

I will not look after them. "

Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Guest]

Ironlion,

I don't know why you want "Budha Dal" to act here when in reality on the other hand S.G.P.C (Shrimoni Gurdwaras Prabandak Committee) holds all the Gurdwaras and money coming from Gurdawars for the Punjab?

Why not ask S.G.P.C instead because that's the main organization which is running Sikhs political, financial and religious organizations/institutions?

Also, quoting all Hindus as R.S.S is same as blaming all Sikhs as terrorists.

I don't know if Indian Government is involved in supplying Drugs to Punjab at this time but it is well known truth that most of the opium comes from Lahone Pakistan and other drugs and "Desi Daru" comes from peasant community as they take pride in having it at home. I think you are being ignorant of the fact that in most of the Punjabi families (especially in peasant community) serving liquor is sign of hospitality.

And if you really want to take any stand then before attacking R.S.S you should take care of our Punjabi Singers the ones are spreading this Daru Culture day and night through their songs.

For example:

Daru Bina na Kithe wee gal bande, riwarz hou giya peen da jane khane da- By Kuldip Manak

Apna Punjab hove, ghar dee Sharab hove, -- By Gurdas Maan

Here is discussion forum URl if you want to report this act of RSS to Sgpc.

http://www.sgpc.net/forum/default.asp

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

Admin - let them answer, If they can at all ?

Can a group or person promoting intoxications help in any way to stop a drug problem that is epidemic in Punjab ?? Do they care at all ? Could they be part of the problem ?

Also Certain individuals are fixated on promoting Hindu Mat and the lineage that they believe in/worship, is not back to Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaaj - the founder of Sikhi; but to Hindu Gods (There is a difference in acknowledgement and worship) ... so let them answer .... also I have written "Right Wing Hindu", never said all Hindus but it is a majority that believe in this devious brahmin mat.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Guest]

Ironlion,

We don't have any problem in allowing threads where people can learn from each other and members are posting constructive criticism. It is quiet funny to me that from one side most of you try to claim that U.K Nihangs are fake ( I have no idea about them though, if they real or fake) but whenever there is any question need to be anwsered related to Nihangs then you will ask them. This is something, which we cannot allow. If you really want to take official words from Nihangs especially Budha Dal then why not contact their acting head office? Or you can call Gurdwaras under the supervision of Budha Dal.

http://budhadal.com/

We can allow discussions in general but this forum is not for personal/petty fights. If you want to take feedback only from challenge_everything then use PM or e-mail him.

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

I am not anti-Nihang ... have a read of my edit on first post.

Secondly the questions are very valid, Why would anyone take offence to them ? anyway ... if you do not want me to aim the questions at anyone I open them up to everyone and ask them what they think ?

Here are the new questions :

1. Can a group or person promoting intoxications help in any way to stop a drug problem that is epidemic in Punjab ?

Second question/point:

2. Be weary of individuals / groups that claim to be Sikh but in matter of fact are promoting hindu mat ?

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Guest]

Ironlion,

You have totally missed the point of my post. I have asked you simple question which was very easy to comprehend. Let me ask you once again. Why should we ask "Buddha Dal" for drug abuse, which is happening in Punjab? When we all are aware of this fact that Sikhs main religious organization in Punjab is S.G.P.C?

And why should we ignore house enemies? Our own “Desi liquor culture†which comes from peasant community? Why should we ignore our own Punjabi Singers using drugs references openly in their songs? Why not act against these house enemies first? And why should we ignore S. Prakash Singh "Badal" our political leader in Punjab who brought B.J.P (Bharti Janta Party) to Punjab?

Also, in order to satisfy you I can provide you with this link. Please scroll down and read about Buddha Dal’s anti-drugs movement which they’ve started from Ludhiana. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030805/ldh1.htm#8

You can also visit http://www.tribuneindia.com and search for Buddha dal and you will come across enough links where you can read about their movement against Drugs. But I will repeat it once again that if you really want to get feedback from Buddha Dal then contact the right source, which I have provided above in my post. We have tolerated enough petty fights on our forum between U.K AKJ camp and U.K Nihang camps and it’s not allowed anymore here.

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, VAheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

Ironlion,

You have totally missed the point of my post. I have asked you simple question which was very easy to comprehend. Let me ask you once again. Why should we ask "Buddha Dal" for drug abuse, which is happening in Punjab? When we all are aware of this fact that Sikhs main religious organization in Punjab is S.G.P.C?

The answer to this question would be:

Why Not ? - It is a very valid Sikhi related question.

Also I think you missed my last post where I have opened it up to anyone to answer : "1. Can a group or person promoting intoxications help in any way to stop a drug problem that is epidemic in Punjab ? "

About SGPC - you are totally right about questioning their motives aswell. They take all that Donations of the Golak ? But where does it go ? They ASWELL need to be asked this question.

And why should we ignore house enemies? Our own “Desi liquor culture†which comes from peasant community? Why should we ignore our own Punjabi Singers using drugs references openly in their songs? Why not act against these house enemies first? And why should we ignore S. Prakash Singh "Badal" our political leader in Punjab who brought B.J.P (Bharti Janta Party) to Punjab?

Again these are valid points and agree that Badal is ANOTHER sell out. But because another group is doing wrong doesn't mean we cannot discuss what others are doing.

Again this is open point, so that Admin does not get offended or think I am being petty ... It is one thing a non-religious person taking intoxications but another thing when somebody/group taking intoxications in the name of Sikhi. They are degrading Sikhi.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, VAheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Beast]

(AS admin has editied what I have written below, I just want to make one point clear I am not anti-Nihang or anti any sampridiya, on the contrary I am 100% support for any Nihang who has stood up against tyranny and fought for the rights of the downtrodden i.e. any True Nihang who has fought the tyrannical Indian Governement Those who are chumpchey are mere sheep in crocodile clothing sell-outs.)

Also I think you missed my last post where I have opened it up to anyone to answer : "1. Can a group or person promoting intoxications help in any way to stop a drug problem that is epidemic in Punjab ? "

So by your reckoning, those Nihangs who fought against the government are, by default, tackling the drug abuse and right-wing propaganda today?

Instead of being a fox in sheep's clothing why didn't you just get straight to the point with what you wanted to say?

You feel that it is up to Nihangs to become the moral adjudicators in Punjab with regards to drugs (seeing as they themselves are 'major drug abusers') and you also want them to form a political party to tackle the far-right RSS.

Do you also want them to collect your washing and take it to the laundry on the way to doing all this?

[sikh_fauge]

I think this discussion on nihangs,etc is irrelevant. Im shocked at that article..the writer speaks alot of sense, but from the very start u can tell hes a government chumcha. I like the name at the end too! lol

Doesnt make it any more authentic india!!!!!

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

Beast, if you like to call me a wolf in sheep clothing, I am not too bothered.

Why would anyone get upset with the question posed ? It is a very valid Sikhi related question.

If it is touching a nerve then that is up to you to find out why? The Truth is a hard pill to swallow. Individuals/groups can go round promoting certain beliefs i.e. it is OK to take intoxications, on websites, forums etc... justifying whichever way they like but the reality of the situation is that drug abuse is rampant in Punjab and across the world. It is a scurge on society, and to promote it in any shape or form is not only against Gurmat but you are basically influencing people towards a living hell. THINK about what you are ultimately promoting, and whether you can live with yourselves. I am sure some people out their have suffered, with family members taking drugs. Everyone is happy to do and say what they please until it effects them.

I am not asking anyone to start a political party. The point is about Internal and External threats to Sikhi. Those who are aligned with the RSS way of thought i.e. like the article then they are a threat.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[guv]

there's a difference between use & abuse.

eg. cough syrup can be used to alleviate the pains of a cough, or can be abused as an addictive intoxicant.

[Beast]

Firstly ironlion I called you a fox, not a wolf.

Your question isn't valid whatsoever - you seemed to be confused between use and abuse, just like Guv said.

Because Nihangs have no problem with bhang (as long as it is not abused) it seems that you are trying to imply that they are therefore responsible for all the worlds problems.

'Abuse' is a burden on society, 'use' isn't. Your whole argument is based on a very shaky foundation. What next? Are Nihangs responsible for all the meat-eaters in Punjab as well?

Most of these kids that are abusing drugs have probably never even met a Nihang in their lives. And even if they had, are you trying to suggest that their meeting turned them from puran Gursikhs (no meat/alcohol/mono-sex/bhang/lust etc) into marauding junkie's looking to mug old grannies to fund their next fix?

Secondly, you said that Nihangs promoted Hindu Mat, but failed to elaborate. Some details would be nice.

[Guest]

The answer to this question would be:

Why Not ? - It is a very valid Sikhi related question.

Have you ever been to Punjab? First go there and ask people if they are getting into drugs under the influence of Nihangs? Nihangs are not drug addicts and if you really want to see it then go and check it in reality. You are just living on internet and your conclusions are based on internet information and im confident about it.

Also I think you missed my last post where I have opened it up to anyone to answer: "1. Can a group or person promoting intoxications help in any way to stop a drug problem that is epidemic in Punjab?â€

First of all, you have no idea what is happening in Punjab as I can see from your above statement. I have lined up causes and you have ignored them clearly just to bypass so you can involve yourself into petty fights. Let me make it easier for you. If we see anything wrong in our school whom do we contact? The principle or next door neighbor? So, same thing goes here. If you're really concerned about Sikh youth getting into drugs in Punjab then ask S.G.P.C which is running most of the Financial, religious and educational institutions in Punjab.

About SGPC - you are totally right about questioning their motives as well. They take all that Donations of the Golak ? But where does it go ? They ASWELL need to be asked this question.

I can clearly see that you are living on internet and have no real experience of Punjab in reality. You don't even know who has responsibilities for running Sikh political, religious and educational institutions in Punjab.

Again these are valid points and agree that Badal is ANOTHER sell out. But because another group is doing wrong doesn't mean we cannot discuss what others are doing.

Have you ever met Buddha dal or you decision is based on what you see online?

Again this is open point, so that Admin does not get offended or think I am being petty ... It is one thing a non-religious person taking intoxications but another thing when somebody/group taking intoxications in the name of Sikhi. They are degrading Sikhi.

I don't get offended and im not offended and I will not get offended because I live in reality. All we don't want to see as team of Sikhawreness that members don't start petty fights and waste our time and it goes for both camps. (AKJ camp & U.K Nihang Camp)

This is my last post because I have no intention to convince you here. We all learn if Almighty wants us to and if your intentions are true then you will survive in this world with intelligence.

This topic will be locked if we see any petty fight. Feel free to discuss without any personality attacks.

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

You feel that it is up to Nihangs to become the moral adjudicators in Punjab with regards to drugs (seeing as they themselves are 'major drug abusers')

Firstly ironlion I called you a fox, not a wolf.

Your question isn't valid whatsoever - you seemed to be confused between use and abuse, just like Guv said.

Because Nihangs have no problem with bhang (as long as it is not abused) it seems that you are trying to imply that they are therefore responsible for all the worlds problems.

Beastie Boy you are contradicting yourself. Also what USE have THEY got for 'bhang' (cannabis) ?? True if you are in war and you need a pain killer then in that aspect it is acceptable as any other pain killer. But I am sure when they are chopping off the sheeps heads, the sheeps are not that fierce fighters ??

Feel free to discuss without any personality attacks.

and yet you have said about me:

You are just living on internet and your conclusions are based on internet information and im confident about it.

How can you be confident. You don't even know me.

Have you ever been to Punjab?

Yep .. many times

First of all, you have no idea what is happening in Punjab

I can clearly see that you are living on internet and have no real experience of Punjab in reality. You don't even know who has responsibilities for running Sikh political, religious and educational institutions in Punjab.

Getting a bit personal here ?

Hey I thought that the moderator was meant to be impartial ?

Admin you know so much about me. Should i bother replying...

The notion about drug abuse in Punjab and decline in Sikhi was seen at first hand when I visited (been couple of times). The decline was not only evident by viewing but also talking to relatives/friends about their experiences and changes of people there. For example they told me about how when there wasn't one or just about be one barber shop, there was now three on the same street, and I saw this in his local town.

Also a constant theme was the increase in drug abuse of the youth and elders. Also the different methods and things they would use to get high.

The point of this posting is that if any group - whoever they are if they are openly promoting drug abuse then they are besharam, and are not really Sikhs. They are simply degrading Sikhi.

And for you beastie I am not talking about [highlight=yellow:509976473a]True Nihangs[/highlight:509976473a]. Because True Nihangs are part of The Khalsa. The Khalsa does not do drug abuse, does fight against injustice and does not worship hindu gods, Believes in 10 Guru , and believes that the Jot of the 10 Guru is in Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj etc...

[highlight=yellow:509976473a]The 'nangs' or malesh Khalsa are the false ones that promote drug abuse, take cannabis and get high, promote hindu mat such as caste (make so called different castes take Amrit seperate), worship hindu Gods, and see themselves as part of the hindu indian nation.[/highlight:509976473a]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Guest]

Getting a bit personal here ?

Hey I thought that the moderator was meant to be impartial ?

Admin you know so much about me. Should i bother replying...

Brother, you don't have any idea when one becomes partial so keep your negative thought away from this forum. I know all this political talk as well but im not trying to be politicians here. You definitely don't know who to ask and I have made it clear and if it’s personal attack towards you then you are swimming in wrong water.

I'm just correcting you on something because you are indirectly provoking petty fight. I could have said it while being invisible as a moderator but I didn't because I wanted to be part of this discussion. You should be aware of this that you are writing on this board and not getting banned and this is happening because of our impartiality. Please, prove that S.G.P.C is not leading organization of Punjab for Sikhs? Please, prove me wrong that S.G.P.C don't hold any responsibilities to cure problems of Sikh youth in Punjab? Please, prove me wrong where I have stated that S.G.P.C has the responsibilities for Sikhs political, religious and educational matters in Punjab?

I don’t really need to know you in real life if I want to post any opinion. We don’t know God personally but still we can judge him and his power because God has blessed us with brain which has power of “logical thinking†which we can use to come to any conclusion.

Also, “iron lion†is not your identity or personality. This ID you are using as an internet user ID. Personality attack is very wide subject to discuss here so I will stop here as if now so I can give you all a chance to discuss.

Please, keep this discussion to the point and don’t get into name calling. Keep your personal wars within different jathas on U.K Streets not on this forum.

[guv]

The point of this posting is that if any group - whoever they are if they are openly promoting drug abuse then they are besharam, and are not really Sikhs.

who are u referring to?

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

About SGPC - you are totally right about questioning their motives aswell. They take all that Donations of the Golak ? But where does it go ? They ASWELL need to be asked this question.

I think you have got your wires crossed, Why would I prove you wrong on the points about the SGPC when I agreed with this points about SGPC on previous posts? (as above qute shows) That is not being political that is just straight talking.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, VAheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

The 'malesh' Khalsa are the false ones that promote drug abuse, take cannabis and get high, promote hindu mat such as caste (make so called different castes take Amrit seperate), worship hindu Gods, and see themselves as part of the hindu indian nation.

Simple answer, If you know anyone who fits the descritption above, they are not really Sikhs, they may even look like Sikhs but inside they are just dirt ready to backstab The Khalsa Panth.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, VAheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[guv]

If you know anyone who fits the descritption above, they are not really Sikhs, they may even look like Sikhs but inside they are just dirt ready to backstab The Khalsa Panth.

i'm sorry, i don't know anyone who fits all of those descriptions. but it seems like u do, otherwise u wouldn't be trying to expose them with so much enthusiasm. please could u tell us who they are so that we know who to stay away from.

many thanks.

[ironlion]

VAheguru Jee Ka Halsa, Vahgeuru Jee Kee Fateh !

You don't have to have all these attributes/descriptions or show all these attributes.

There are plenty of participants on these forum for example that see themselves as part of the hindu indian nation and then go round telling everyone what Sikhi is as they know it all because they have read a lot of literature. Be careful of people giving quotes from history etc... as a quotation can easily be mis-interpretated. Also historical texts are alright for reference (they are not 100% right) but they are the authors opinion or writing and most importantly they are NOT your Guru, which is Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

There are also people on these forums that will not say something is wrong even if it is blatantly wrong. For example some people don't say caste is wrong, especially those who split people up when giving Amrit. This is TOTALLY wrong and MANMAT. When we all drink from the same Amrit Batta, Amrit makes us into the Khalsa Brotherhood, smashing all differences of colour, caste and creed. Guru Jee gave the same Amrit and Rehat to both Singhs and Singhnian. Be careful of those type of people who try to change these fundamental beliefs.

Also be careful of those type of people that believe that they are above The Khalsa and set up a false hierachy.

I do not need to name any organisation/person, they know who they are and if you have believe that they are part of the hindu indian nation, and believe in caste etc... then please reply so that guv knows who you are.

VAheguru Jee Ka Halsa, Vahgeuru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Beast]

^ Again, specific examples please.

Also, these are pretty bold statements from someone who has only been a member for just over two weeks.

"Wrong" is a subjective term. For example, some people will say Sant Jarnail Singh was wrong to fortify the Akaal Takht, others will disagree and say that we cannot question him on the basis of his spirituality, and people like me stay neutral (which fantics seem to take as being a stance against Sant Ji).

In your case you are deeming the use of bhang as being "wrong". Marijuana may be a good painkiller, but that doesn't mean that it was the sole reason it was used by Nihangs in the past. Think about it, if they hadn't constantly used bhang in the past, then how would they know how to make it and how would they know about its medicinal effects?

If you had to go to war right now, eg with the Indian govt, would you know how to make bhang? If not, why not? Its use would be beneficial to you in case you got injured just as it was for the Nihang shaeeds of the past.

About the Hindu thing, again please give specific examples. Simple accusations are a blatant attempt to create controversy.

[Guest Javanmard]

There is no Hindu nation. HInduism as a concept is Western Orientalist concept created in the 19th century anbd adopted by Indian middle classes educated in British institutions. see Richard King: Orientalism and Religion. Nationalism itslef is a European construct which came about during the 19th century. Saying that there something like a Hindu nation is hence absolute non sense!!!

[ironlion]

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

OK beast a specific example. When modern Budha Dal do Amrit Sanchar

they sepreate all the so called different castes. Caste is hindu

mat and totally against Sikh beliefs.

Please answer on this specific example.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[Beast]

Lalleshvari spoke about this some time back:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...?t=3312&start=0

Thats the problem sometimes with new members, they want answers to questions that have already been asked. Use the search facility!

There are also people on these forums that will not say something is wrong even if it is blatantly wrong. For example some people don't say caste is wrong, especially those who split people up when giving Amrit. This is TOTALLY wrong and MANMAT.

^ Who on this forum said that people should be split up according to their caste when administering Amrit? Thats disgraceful. Please quote them and give a link to the url.

Also, you spoke of 'modern' Budha Dal, yet amandeepm informed us that 'caste' practises were in place as early as the 19th century.

There are plenty of participants on these forum for example that see themselves as part of the hindu indian nation and then go round telling everyone what Sikhi is as they know it all because they have read a lot of literature.

^ Explain. Fully. With specific examples.

Also, I see that you didn't question the viewpoint I made about Marijuana. I take it that you have realised the naiivety of your original thoughts regarding drug abuse by youths and 'drug' use by some Nihangs.