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paradox - nirgun/sargun


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there are many paradox's in gurbani. probably the most well known being the nirgun (non-physical) / sargun (physical) attributes of akaal.

as jt posted on another thread:

'Sahas tav nain nun nain huhi tohi ko, suhus moorati nunaa ek tohi'

so how can this apparent paradox be resolved?... i have a few alternatives...

1. part of akaal exists in physical form, & another part as non-physical. there is a dynamic relationship between the two. to truly appreciate akaal we must worship both the manifest & the non-manifest qualities.

2. akaal is non-physical & the references to sargun attributes are metaphorical... poetical representations of love.

3. all physical reality is an illusion. it is a lie created by our minds. & as such so are the sargun qualities of akaal.

4. akaal exists as both nirgun & sargun, whereby not part of akaal is nirgun & part sargun, but all of akaal is both nirgun & sargun at the same time. the only analagy i can think of is wave-particle duality in quantum physics, where light is both a wave and a particle at the same time.

5. akaal is beyond both nirgun & sargun & exists in a state which is uncomprehensible to the human mind.

6. none of the above.

i don't know if any of what i said makes sense, or whether i'm just being really stupid.

personally i think it maybe a mixture of 4 & 5... that akaal exists as nirgun, sargun, & beyond. & a stage of enlightenment is expanding your mind to encompass & accept these apparently contradictory ideas... à la double think in george orwell's 1984.

then again... it could be that... :? ...

help!... i'm confused!! :?:

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i think ur on the right track.

and i'm not sure if i have this in the proper context, but i've seen a couple of lines in Gurbani which state that God is everywhere (and we've also got the ever popular sakhi bout Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji and his visit to the Mecca) to prove that.

what if Waheguru is infused in everything but we just can't see it because he's employed Maya to pull wool over our eyes? (did u already say that guv?...)

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Please guv if you can break down into pendu fied english...i didnt get your question what exactly you askin for ! :? :LOL:

right... here goes again in pindu gangsta boli:

[nb. da dude = god, touchy feely stuff = physical/sargun (eg a table), kithe gya(?) = non-physical/nirgun (eg emotions,soul]

some stuff don't make sense to me in bani like, coz it's like one thing & da opposite, so like which is it? u get what i'm sayin?

so my main ting is like how can da dude be both touchy feely stuff & kithe gya???

i'm tinkin it could be dat:

1. some of da dude is touchy feely... & some is kithe gya(?)... & like dude can swap between the two, funky style. & we gotta like big up both the touchy feely stuff & the kithe gya... know what i'm sayin?

2. maybe dude is all kithe gya... & all that stuff about the touchy feely stuff, is like just so we can undastand da dude... like that poetry stuff clever peepz (& rappers - biggup 2pac!) do.

3. maybe everything touchy feely is like matrix stylee... u know it's like not there but we think it is... & we gotta take the blue pill... or was it the red pill... whatever.

4. this is the real funky one... maybe the dude is both touchy feely & kithe gya at the same tym!! but it's like he's (or she... i aint sexist init :wink:) both... u know wot i'm sayin... maybe u need to get high first. its like those gangsta medallions rappa's wear... they made of gold & they a medallion at the same time! so it's same wid da dude... like both touchy feely & kithe gya... init... if u dun gets it maybes u needs a spliff first.

5. maybe da dudes like on sum nex level... & dudes like not touchy feely or kithe gya at all!!

6. maybe i'm just whacked & none of dem tings is right.

i'm tinkin maybes is numbers 4 & 5... & dudes like touchy feely, kithe gya & sum nex ting too... & lifes is like all about gettin high & like thinkin about all this stuff & biggin up da dude in all forms... u kno wot i'm sayin?? :wink:

that any better neo?

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hehee... nice try at bein all peindu guv. it actually made more sense than the first one. well, when i wasn't laughing my butt off it did.

here's an(other) idea. what if it's all 6?

but...

i'm thinkin sf is right. no way we're ever gonna understand "da dude" cuz we're just not capable of doin it without "da dude's" grace. take a look at how hard it was for even the Guru's to describe him. they basically gave up on tryin to describe "da dude" cuz they knew that even an entire lifetime dedicated to describin "da dude" couldn't cover even an itty bitty particle's worth of it...

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i give up, i tried to post 4 times and none of them made sense...so i deleted them.

all i got left to say is this [silence] ----------- [/silence]

maybe that's the whole point.

neo... u haven't replied! ...i re-wrote my original question in pindoo boli!!... don't tell me u still don't understand!!! :P

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