A warrior in 2005

[Blue Knight]

Sangat Ji having viewed with some interest the developments in the last few months in the UK scene, there is a question which springs to mind. It begins by observing the changing attitudes of the younger singhs. With the introduction of niddar and his gatka style, there seems to have occurred a shift in mentality where these youngsters either, wish to become or, believe they are either nihang singhs or warriors.

For some reason which perhaps you could explain to me, there seems to be an understanding as evidenced by various discussions that nihang singhs are the only true warriors. And it is the ablity to weild a sword or a stick or to hit somebody with your kara that makes a warrior. Continuing other features of a warrior are blue turbans, curly moustaches, bad attitudes, swearing, intimidation, wearing of blue bana, wearing of various weapons etc etc. These it seems are what people are associating with a warrior. Of course they also will belive that a warrior is unafraid of death, and worships weapons etc I am aware of this, however, will wearing the gear and acting the part and even taking amrit from a certain place make one a warrior? Can you as some have suggested be born a warrior? Or .. Is it something else?

Some even distingusih rightly or wrongly between what they deem to be warriors and what they deem to be 'sants'. Perhaps a definition of the two terms is neccesary as how do you draw a line between the two? Is a khalsa not meant to be both a saint/sant and a soldier/warrior? If one adopts a white chola as oppossed to a blue one does that mean they are no longer a warrior?

Who is the warriors preparing for war against? Which war are they readying themselves for? If we are to take the stance that only those dressed in blue with big swords are warriors, then whether we like it or not, we must admit that they do not seem to do much fighting. Example being while sikhs were being massacred across the country there was very little in the sense of our warriors protecting the people. (This statement applies for both types of people, those who belive that the govt was the oppresor, and those who believe the kharkoo singhs were the oppressors). When the moment arose, nothing happened. Of course some people did take part but not the 'armies' as we like to think. In the recent update by jagdeep, the only real involvement according to him was by mr ajit phoola, who even jagdeep admits used the police, narcotics, alochol etc to persecute the people. Is this our example of a warrior? I pray not!

So, if the war on the battlefield is not to be fought, then which war are the warriors preparing for?

These 'sants' or non warrior sikhs could be assumed to be fighting the REAL war, constantly. This being the spiritual war, this being the difficult war which is fought second by second, something will take you a lifetime, not a short affair in which one brave action is all it takes to finish your life in splendour. The spiritual war requires brave actions day by day, to ditch the hunkar, to control your eyes upon gazing upon others, to close your ears to the world and listen only to VAHEGURU… this I believe is the real war, and these are the real warriors.

Of course, the warriors on the battlefield are needed also, but I believe that without this internal war, that person stepping onto the battlefield is not a 'true warrior'.

I would appreciate I sangat could list the characteristics of a true warrior. And then let us compare them with those within ourselves, those in the 'warriors' around us and those of a gursikh? Is a warrior different from a gursikh? If a warrior must shun ego, then can a warrior br proud to be so egotisticsal? Be proud of his ego? Is a warrior not also a gursikh? And please no talk of black and white boxes or shades of grey. It is very distressing to see that whilst we as sikhs claim to be warriors elite, we are no different from anyone else. We suffer the same 5 chor and the same dilemas, in fact we cannot even take pride in our training and skills. We are unfortunetly warriors just in name, not in spirit or in form.

[Blue Knight]

I apologise one more point, singh ji mentioned the marines in his post.

Please show me the similarities in what the marines, seals, etc have with our 'armies' of today. i see very little that is good in comparison.

yes 99.9% need not bother to join the marines as they will weed out the weak and soft and dispose of them, they want only the strongest physically and mentally. the provide the best warrior training available. Skill in all types of practical weaponary, experts in killing quickly, with stealth accuracy and impact. They are true warriors if we are looking at the martial aspect alone. We have nothing to compare with them , if we are saying that the nihang singhs and the dals are our version, then lets change that to , 99.9% may apply as once your in, we wont train you, theres no prescribed discipline as such (reference to jagdeep/narsingha and the way rehat can change, be changed, etc to suit an individuals needs), etc etc. A very sad state of affairs my brothers and sisters.

[doaba]

wow dude that was a good question. my opinion of what i c is. sikhs r not warriors no more. i mean the majority of them. ok have heard a few turbaned sikhs do martial arts.

Many monai thats if u wanna call them skhs on not. but many monai do many martial arts. kabbadi and other eatern arts like muay tai, ju jitsu, tae kwondo etc etc.

sikhs 2day, no there is no such army. and if u r referring to the budha dal well they have enough problems. but yet they do have loyalty to 1 another. some more than any other sant dera can say.

sikhs as in khalsa have no training 2day. what i have seen from many different sikhs is they all get up at amrit vela and do their own way of prays and practices. thats about it. mehta sikhs just do paath now 2. no guns or nothing like it was in the 80's. it has calmed down alot.

dal panth on the other had still do the prays and pratices also carry guns and have horses. so they kinda doing someting.

tanks and jets and all that kind of stuff well theres the india army. adampur in north east of jalandhar is a good place to look at those things.

yeah what a great post by sir knight. i just hope u not picking on mr ndar like every person does. but as a general question. wow i wanna c what ppl reply with.

[Rakash Singh]

You see what has happened don't you...?

After Nihang Niddar Singh started teaching Sava Raksha and Shastar Vidiya it blew a hole in the gatka world. Many people began to see that gatka was just "pants" in relation to what Nihang Niddar Singh knows and teaches. Many moneh have took to the Keshdhari saroop and took Khande Bhateh Da Pahul. The rest of the Sanatan Sikh Dharm re-emergence is history, as we already know.

By being born a warrior i mean some people are genetically born with a disposition which enables them to be more "physically active", this can enable one to then exploit this and become a good athlete, fighter, runner, etc. But this does not mean that this is the be all and end all, obviously not.

The environment and upbringing will hone the "warrior/hunter" instinct in an individual. Harsh upbringings, strict lifestyles, disiplined training from an early or impressionable age are some factors that will produce good natural "warriors". I can go into more detail if you want, about genes, biology, diet etc. just ask.

Note above is all secular and does not involve religion and is looking at life on a secular plane.

Potentially good warriors will generally fit into "mould and have certain things in common, i.e. beliefs, values etc they were taught as kids. Learning skilled combat is the second stage, and NO just by wielding a sword or kara does one become a "complete" warrior. By complete i mean with ethics and values.

For some reason which perhaps you could explain to me, there seems to be an understanding as evidenced by various discussions that nihang singhs are the only true warriors. And it is the ablity to weild a sword or a stick or to hit somebody with your kara that makes a warrior. Continuing other features of a warrior are blue turbans, curly moustaches, bad attitudes, swearing, intimidation, wearing of blue bana, wearing of various weapons etc etc. These it seems are what people are associating with a warrior. Of course they also will belive that a warrior is unafraid of death, and worships weapons etc I am aware of this, however, will wearing the gear and acting the part and even taking amrit from a certain place make one a warrior? Can you as some have suggested be born a warrior? Or .. Is it something else?

Historically speaking Akalis and Nihang Singhs have been the warriors protecting the Sikh Dharm, as well as other faiths, together with other tribes and bands or warriors against sometimes the common enemy, ii.e. moghuls or afgans. They are Kashatris, and their maryada of bearing blue vestements and "vatt-ing" the moustache is still seen today. "bad attitudes", "bad language" and "indimidation" is an opinion, viewed by some and not others.

As far as i consider, a Khalsa is a warrior with utmost morals and values.

Before i go into the rest of your post let me make a few points too.

You keep making references to the events of june 1984 and the Nihang Dals not playing a more prominent role as was expected. What they have to say about it, well its better if you ask one of Budda/Taruna Dals Top Singhs.

But lets not forget the fact that without these Nihangs Dals, there would be NO Sikh Panth left today, we would have been, wiped out or converted. They have been fighting wars since Guru Hargobind Maharaajs time, up until early last century.

The questions you ask, i can answer, but i only speak for myself.

I do train. I consider myself a warrior. Fighting external and internal battles. Ive done my bit for the community, i needn't go into detail as it may seem as if im boasting. I try to become a better person, day in day out.

I'll fight were its needed, in support of righteous causes. Hundreds of people every week get mugged, violently robbed, murdered and raped. Im reducing my chances of becoming a statistic.

84, 84, 84, 84, 84 instead of going on about 84 there is a better way of teaching panjabis about their Dharm and what the Guru's preached and sought to teach humanity.

Im training for whatever comes, whenever it comes. You on the other hand can only see one fight, for khalistan. Even then, if you were to physically fight fo it, i doubt many of you will be able to do much. Most panjabis lack cardiovascular fitness, upper body strength and mental toughness to become a modern infantrymen.

Once again i cant talk for the Nihangs Singhs where ever they may be, but i can talk for myself.

On the other hand, what are YOU doing?

I want to be intouch with my heritage and feel especially attached to the Nihang Khalsa Dals, so im doing what i can to presereve and learn as much as i can, as well as threadng the difficult path which is "sharper than a sword and finer than a hair".

[Iron-Singh]

You keep making references to the events of june 1984 and the Nihang Dals not playing a more prominent role as was expected. What they have to say about it, well its better if you ask one of Budda/Taruna Dals Top Singhs.

But lets not forget the fact that without these Nihangs Dals, there would be NO Sikh Panth left today, we would have been, wiped out or converted. They have been fighting wars since Guru Hargobind Maharaajs time, up until early last century.

Were there “nihang dals†in the times of the Gurus?

I thought Sikhs were all just one band under the Guru at that time.

[doaba]

no they was not. sikhs were seperated into groups then to.

[Blue Knight]

Doaba you are right that many sikhs do tend to focus on one thing over the other, which may lead us to becoming unbalanced as saint-soldiers.

I think brother we still need to define what a warrior is, perhaps those gurmukhs amongst us can help us with what gurbani says in this respect. And lets remember Guru Granth Sahib ji as well as gurbani from Dasam Granth in this description. Who is a true warrior? What makes a true warrior?

Rakash you are getting more towards what i am aseeking, you say a complete warrior has ethics etc. But which ethics, after all many of the greatest strongest people in history have also been mighty tyrants.

I think the key word in your first reply was 'potentially'. Any set circumstances will not create a warrior. As i have said there are many who will have had that upbringing etc but still cannot be called warriors. Many such people will actually grow to be weak, unafraid to make their own decisions and will resort to their fists to solve problems. Again within our own history we have countless examples of how the mighty were made to bow and the weak were made masters. As a sikh considering the warrior spirit and warrior physical being we must consider the spiritual aspects of warriors.

Regrading the gatka of niddar singh compared to the other style, are you suggesting that it is only with the emergence of this style that 'moneh' have started to keep their hair? Tell me brother what it was that has led to all of our others brothers keeping their kesh? Has not gatka as practiced by the other teachers led to youngsters keeping their kesh taking amrit etc? Have not keertan darbars, sangat, simran led to people keeping their kesh? I know you are not saying that his style is the only thing responsible for people yearning for sikhi, but i just thought it was an odd comment to make.

Yes brother i am aware of the nihang bana and somewhat of the traditions, that is not what i am questioning. i am asking is this all that one needs to do in order to become a warrior? Does the blue dress and turban make a warrior? Please read the rest of the question in its original form also.

Please refrain from personal statements, as far as i am aware i have not gone on about '84 84 84' at all. in fact i mentioned the incident in as nuetral a way as possible. We cannot deny that the armies did not mobilise during this period, the reasons as to why they chose not to, are i guess for a different discussion. i was merely making the point that simply 'looking' or calling yourself a warrior is not enough as was evidenced by recent events. The fact is that this period was a dark chapter in the glorious history of the khalsa armies. Of course the singhs did some magnificent things in the past and that history belongs to us all, not solely to people aligning themselves with the current nihang dals! In the same way, our lack of a well discilpined effective armed force is something we must all deal with.

Again please point out where i have mentioned khalistan or the fight for it. If you carefully read my post you will see the slant is towards the spiritual fight, without which there can be no or little physical warfare.

If you do care to mention the fighters for khalistan you will notice that initially the singhs had a very good grounding in gurbani and bhagti before any battles took place. Singhs like manvir singh chheroo and baba gurbachan singh manochahal are reknown for their love of gurbani and for the countless time they spent in simran.

Forgive me if i am wrong, but again brother you miss the concept of guru ji in your answer. Yes you may accuse me of living in a dream world, but then that is true, this world is nothing but a dream isnt it! If a gurmukh ever encountered a situation where they needed to involve themselves in combat and they are a real gurmukh are we to believe that guru ji wouldnt help them? Yes guru ji helps those that helps themselves etc, but gurbani constantly tells us that Vaheguru protects his own saints! I cannot recall any gurbani saying that guru ji will protect he who does a bit of simran but trains really hard! Of course one could also argue that Vaheguru is the protector of all! but bakshish and kirpa are two amazing things which guru ji has for his beloved.

The name Bhai Bachittar Singh Ji leaps to mind!! The cook defeats the mighty elephant while the mighty warrior runs from the fortress in shame his ego having been smashed by guru ji.

But sorry we are loosing track of this discussion.

Doaba i do not wish to attack anybody in this discussion, i am merely questioning the assumption or view that many youngsters seem to have developed. We as you rightly agree with are not a warrior people in our current state. We are fat, lazy, unhealthy, no spirituality, no faith, no true love for our sustainer. All a few of have are big mouths, others have big muscles while others have big egos! Whether we like it or not this is the state of our beloved dals. It is good to see rakash believe that he is trying to walk the warriors path. But brother you always 'seem' very tense, maybe its just something im reading from your posts, relax my friend, Vaheguru is in control of everything, everything happens according to his will!

I would enjoy reading any responses from other gurmukhs, brothers and sisters. Guru ji asked us all to become saint sipai, so this is something which we should consider.. what is this sant and what is this sipai?

Thank you guys.

[doaba]

lol most of the thns i say is in a joking way cus it relly doesn't bother me what ppl do in their lives. it will only affect me if ppl force thing son other ppl.

u r right dals and normal sikhs have become lazy. thats y we must stop calling each other names and theu r this and i am this. yes we all have our different paths. but i'm sure evyr morning and every night we all say vaheguru, ram, hari.

agree to disagree. live and let live. respect 1 another.love each other. the khalsa will become striongeronly when every1 in the world start to do the above. i think rakash may be saying not on mr ndar teachs physical training but he is getting ppl to keep their hair and take khanda bata di paul. i may be wrong rakash am i?

and yes sir knight there were singhs in 80's that knew gurbani but u must not 4got there were many who did not but yet did the deeds of the kakoos.

[Rakash Singh]

Yes i did purposely miss any mention of Dharm or Guru in most of my answer. I wanted to first solely give my thoughts on a secular level, i.e. on warriors of the past, be they romans, greeks, macedonians, mongols, afghans, huns etc.

Just talking about what makes a man a "bundah" or a "mardh" meaning the opposite of impotent and therefore potent, there will be common ground shared by these warriors in their thoughts, beleifs and upbringings etc.

Regarding Niddar Singhs classes etc i was highlighting the positive aspects and outcomes that have come to light, i many have friends that have becomes more intune with Sikh Dharm because of Sikh Programmes, Keertan Darbars, Sikhi Camps, and learning of Shaatar Vidiya too, i don't mean to imply much about it, just stating the obvious, or not so obvious in this case.

In the histrorical context of the whole of humanity, warriors fought in wars to triump thier cause. Whether they had morals and ethics will be of different opinions obviously, if your on the benefiting end then the answer would be yes.

Now taking in account the warrior aspect within Sikh Dharm, then a warrior must be fighting in the name of righteousness, because he is a Sikh warrior, a Khalsa. There are bad apples in every basket so to speak, but a Khalsa should have morals, ethics, chivalry, etiquette (sp) etc. Rehit name and Gurbani show us these virtues and values and we must try and learn and change as much as we can, for the benefit of humanity and our Soul ultimately, if we are to reach salvation.

A Khalsa should therefore be a warrior with love, compassion, morality, charitable and as so taught to humanity by our Beloved Gurus.

A Sikh should strive to have be loving, kind, charitable etc and be ready to stand up against tyrants and oppression.

The two paragraphs are just my views. Although I would like every Sikh one day to be a Khalsa, it won't happen straight away.

Are Khalsa and Sikh the same thing? I don't know. Everyone has their own opinion so ill leave that open. What do you think?

As i said before i did notice your undertones and respect the fact you were trying to be neutral, but ur comments all pointed to one even in time, and i highlighted another period in time for comparison.

Im certainly not saying warriors don't have to pray or that saints don't have to fight. Im highlighting the fact the a Khalsa should always be in training, as it isnt much good to try and train for the battle just before the battle, one is not likely to see victory. There is a pangthee on this in Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Vaaran.

If a gurmukh ever encountered a situation where they needed to involve themselves in combat and they are a real gurmukh are we to believe that guru ji wouldnt help them?

Are we to believe that if a normal person got into a situation where they needed to involve themselves in combat, Maha Akaal wouldn't help them?

Countless people win and countless people lose, some think about the Lord all the time, some occasionly and some hardly ever, but all are blesses with countless Daats from Maha Akaal.

Has this got something to do with their karm in their previous lives? Are they reaping rewards of deeds in their past lives? The Gurmukhs and the manmukhs? all are blessed.

I cannot recall any gurbani saying that guru ji will protect he who does a bit of simran but trains really hard!

yes u started to think in the next line didnt you.

Of course one could also argue that Vaheguru is the protector of all!

this ive have talked a bit about above.

Ive never come accross in Gurbani where it states that Maha Akaal will not bless, provide or sustain anyone other than Gurmukhs? Who was blessing, providing and sustaining before the Advent of SatGur Nanak?

The Lord has been blessing since the beginning of time, the bakshish and the kirpa you speak of.

The name Bhai Bachittar Singh Ji leaps to mind!!

Yes he was blessed, or he was a undercover soorma... lol

Does the blue dress and turban make a warrior?

Does a white chola make you a saint? Does a beard and turban make you better than others, without uncut kesh? Does taking amrit offer a place in Sachkand? Have a think.

To answer your question> no not in its entirety, i know enough jokers who dress up like Nihangs and do gatka displays and think they are warriors.

Then again i know enough guys in white cholas who arent so loving and spiritual behind closed curtains.

Im defo not perfect myself, there are hundreds of ways that i could improve as a Sikh and a Khalsa... we are all on the same path, lets try to help eachother along, not stop eachother and try and kick eachother off because we dont wear the same colour chollas or banas (white/blue/peach/pokadot..looks at guv.) or one has many malas and the other many shastar. A mix of worlds is ideal, but one will be slightly more dominant than the other, thats all my first point was in the other thread... "born to be warriors or born to be saints" maybe slightly more dividing than i intended to mean.

Oh by the way im the first one to say just because one has the outer image of a saint or warrior doesnt mean they will be true tot the uniform or bana they wear.

[doaba]

ur last line is brilliant thast what i been trying ot say. maybe i should stop swearing. cus ppl on this admin c them as bad words.

oh btw BAab Bachiattar singh may have been a cook but he also was a Nihang Singh who gave his horse degh and took it himself to go out and fight at that moment.

go to the dals today and look at the cooks there. they all look like men and nihang singhs.

[Rakash Singh]

lol. gave his horse degh... Waheguru! thats chardikala! true cooks yes nihangs also.

[doaba]

lol oh this is my reply to any negative comment.

i don't c a normal animal such as a horse running towards a mad elephant with arnmour on.

u don't get what i mean. check out the film lord of the rings. ok those monsters r bigger but just think of it the same way but a smaller scale lol.

horses r brave when u beat them up and control them. but i don't think they all r like that and r stupid. so degh yummy to the horse.

i just felt i had to say that cus some1 may come out with a stupid comment.

like degh!? what!? what!? to a horse r u stupid!!!?? sikhs don't have that!!??? hahahaahah

i say oh dear oh chum oh friend u r mistaken. tooty fruity.

[Black Goddess]

Who is the warriors preparing for war against? Which war are they readying themselves for? If we are to take the stance that only those dressed in blue with big swords are warriors, then whether we like it or not, we must admit that they do not seem to do much fighting.

You mentioned the spiritual war, I think its when a Sikh fights the 5 chor within himself its as difficult (perhaps more) than fighting a 'war'.

Prof Darshan Singh mentions the 'akaal purukh ki fauj' in one of his recordings and questions why does God need an army anyway? One of his points was that a general army may never even fight a war in the whole life, but the training itself is more important as it carries on throughout each soldier's lifetime whether they fight on the battlefield or not.

I think the nihangs (uk or whatever) are doing a good job in teaching people the vidya and if this is the path most suited to them then good luck to 'em.

[Rakash Singh]

blue knight i was keenly awaiting your responce to this...

[INDISINGH]

do they give anda bread to horses as well?

[challenge_everything]

just a few quotes from aad siri guru granth sahib....

interesting views

The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing. – ANG 6

O Nanak, he is a brave warrior, who conquers and subdues his vicious inner ego. – ANG 86

You are the Giver; You are the Architect of Destiny. There is no other warrior as great as You. – ANG 99

He alone is a warrior, and he alone is the chosen one, upon whose forehead good destiny is recorded. – ANG 132

In the Sanctuary of the spiritual warrior, the account books of the Messenger of Death are torn up. ANG 196

One who eradicates his own evil is a brave warrior; - ANG 258

NANNA: The warrior who fights on the battle-field should keep up and press on. – ANG 341

Such is His glorious greatness - He Himself causes all to act; no one is a warrior or a coward – ANG 570

They alone are acclaimed as brave warriors in the world hereafter, who receive true honour in the Court of the Lord. – ANG 580

He alone is called a warrior, who is attached to the Lord’s Love in this age. – ANG 679

Without God, there is no other protector; help me to chant Your Name, Almighty Warrior, and Sheltering Lord. – ANG 683

Among the religious scholars, warriors and kings, there is no other equal to the Lord’s devotee. – ANG 858

He alone is a warrior hero, who remains dead to the world. – ANG 1019

You Yourself are spiritual wisdom, meditation, and the Guru, the Warrior Hero. – ANG 1020

He is the Giver of Sanctuary, the Heroic Warrior who keeps His Word. – ANG 1073

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defence of righteousness. – ANG 1105

He alone is clever and wise and a religious scholar, he alone is a brave warrior, and he alone is intelligent, - ANG 1221

You are the Heroic Warrior of the Shabad, the Word of God. Your Power destroys sexual desire and anger. – ANG 1391

He is the Warrior Hero of Truth, humility is His Power. His Loving Nature inspires the Congregation with deep and profound understanding; He is absorbed in the Lord, free of hate and vengeance. – ANG 1393

[challenge_everything]

just a few quotes from aad siri guru granth sahib....

interesting views

The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing. – ANG 6

O Nanak, he is a brave warrior, who conquers and subdues his vicious inner ego. – ANG 86

You are the Giver; You are the Architect of Destiny. There is no other warrior as great as You. – ANG 99

He alone is a warrior, and he alone is the chosen one, upon whose forehead good destiny is recorded. – ANG 132

In the Sanctuary of the spiritual warrior, the account books of the Messenger of Death are torn up. ANG 196

One who eradicates his own evil is a brave warrior; - ANG 258

NANNA: The warrior who fights on the battle-field should keep up and press on. – ANG 341

Such is His glorious greatness - He Himself causes all to act; no one is a warrior or a coward – ANG 570

They alone are acclaimed as brave warriors in the world hereafter, who receive true honour in the Court of the Lord. – ANG 580

He alone is called a warrior, who is attached to the Lord’s Love in this age. – ANG 679

Without God, there is no other protector; help me to chant Your Name, Almighty Warrior, and Sheltering Lord. – ANG 683

Among the religious scholars, warriors and kings, there is no other equal to the Lord’s devotee. – ANG 858

He alone is a warrior hero, who remains dead to the world. – ANG 1019

You Yourself are spiritual wisdom, meditation, and the Guru, the Warrior Hero. – ANG 1020

He is the Giver of Sanctuary, the Heroic Warrior who keeps His Word. – ANG 1073

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defence of righteousness. – ANG 1105

He alone is clever and wise and a religious scholar, he alone is a brave warrior, and he alone is intelligent, - ANG 1221

You are the Heroic Warrior of the Shabad, the Word of God. Your Power destroys sexual desire and anger. – ANG 1391

He is the Warrior Hero of Truth, humility is His Power. His Loving Nature inspires the Congregation with deep and profound understanding; He is absorbed in the Lord, free of hate and vengeance. – ANG 1393