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Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji


ISDhillon

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Let me just get one thing straight do not listen to the people on tapoban I have tried to respond cos I am the one who started the thread but they will not let me so I have raised on may other forums just to annoy them and to tell the truth dont listen to these tapoban people they are scared of the truth the only thing that is manmat is orthodoxy which our gurus fought long and hard to uproot look where people wont answer me but just ignore me and continue to give their personal opinions saying babaji is manmat but they use evidence from their own self-appointed spiritual leader whilst I was never disrespectful to them they have continued being disrespectfull to babaji I will predict this for sure that one of these days the akj will face the same as nirankaris because they are isolating sikhs by forcing their own man-made maryada onto the rest of sikhi:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16834

further down the page this person keeps ignoring me on purpose because they have too much ego look:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-s...iracles-or.html

anyhow time is the best test of truth and i will not bother anymore :cry:

ISDhillon

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I have no enmity whatsoever with Baba Vadhbhag Singh . He might have done a lot of kamai . If you want to follow him , i have no problem with that becus everyone has his own freeedom to choose his religion .

But the one thing i want to make clear is that SIKHS are forbidden to go to such deras ( Vadbhag singh , nirankari , radhasoami , sarsa ) its against gurmat . period

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What is your proof that it is against gurmat you have to be able to defend your beliefs if you are to be taken seriously on this forum, a personal opinion is devoid of any qualification and all sikhs in India go to this dera so what gurmat are yio preaching? Where in the maryada are your personal opinion portrayed if you are just using a letter to support your claims you can rest assured it will not be taken with a pich of salt! :D

RSVPASAP

ISDhillon

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I have watched the video you posted ISDhillon, it's good video overall. gotta a chance to know more about baba vadbhag singh ji.

Now there are many things i found in video which are completely out of order contary to Gurmat but especially these ie- bowing to pics, tombs(samadh).

Sri Guru Gobind Singh not only spoke against bowing to tombs, pics in Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib but mocked them as well if you read the scriptures carefully.

Sikh Of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar is only upasakh of shabad guru not any tomb, pics. Having murshid /guidance in Sikh Dharam is quite alright but bowing down his tomb or pics is not *Gurmat* because we are told to rise our brithi over body(deh) and knot it with shabad Jot Guru.

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Dear ISDhillon Ji,

You are more than welcome on this forum. We do not delete posts even if we are not agreed to them. At the same time, we hope that you will have a debate with other members in a decent manner. We should not forget that it is a Sikh forum, so it is so obvious that we want to spread the message of Sikhism. It is up to you to prove that your views are according to Sikhism. If you do so in a decent manner, your posts will no be deleted.

I have not watched the video yet. It will be good, if you write in details what has been shown in this video.

Regards,

Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit'

www.sikhawareness.com

www.amritworld.com

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Gurfateh

Das wants to add one thing here as Brother Karamjeet has mentioned.We are not told to avoid Baba Vadhbhag Singh ji at all.It is to do with Dheermalias while Baba Ji ended Dheermailias by undergoing Baptism or Amrit Sanskar from Nawab Kapur Singh Ji.So he was a Sikh.

Yes bowing to Tombs and Picure is forbiddan for person from Khalsa Panth or who is from Guru Panth.This may not apply to unbaptised or Sahijdhari yet Guru does not like this.We can try hard to remove this thing from Dera Baba Vadhbhag Singh ji by presuing them by love after joining them.We did same from manay of the Gurudwaras in past.

All have something wrong at least and we can try to bring them to right tract instead of opposing them vihemently.

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Dear Amrit you said:

"It is up to you to prove that your views are according to Sikhism."

my response: Actually I do not have to proove anything I added this video to clear up misconceptions people keep saying its manmat etc but do not proove these statements, the reason being that its easier to be orthodox against something you do not understand rather than try and engage with the difference to understand its existence, all forums so far have said that we should ask sikhs to boycott this dera but the premise for this boycott is a letter written by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji, and as far as I am concerned this is not good enough I personally do not believe in the writings of this individual and also have no disrespect for him if people want to believe in the writings of suvh a person thats fine but the cheek of memebers of AKJ say that we should not believe in this baba because he is the cause of manmat yet I see AKJ is exactly the same thing, draw your conclusions from history and gurbani, and when you do you will realise that the der a has a perfectly fine place those who wish to can and those who the you dont have to but dont give dictates to others cos it will backfire like I said before I will not be dictated to by a revivalist movement if your bhagti was working for you you wouldny engage in orthodoxy you would remain unblemished in the midst of them. So I put it to you amrit ji and all others how is this dera manmat?

Thanks

Indy 8)

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ISDhillion,

do you have anything to say what i have said?

I have watched the video you posted ISDhillon, it's good video overall. gotta a chance to know more about baba vadbhag singh ji.

Now there are many things i found in video which are completely out of order contary to Gurmat but especially these ie- bowing to pics, tombs(samadh).

Sri Guru Gobind Singh not only spoke against bowing to tombs, pics in Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib but mocked them as well if you read the scriptures carefully.

Sikh Of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar is only upasakh of shabad guru not any tomb, pics. Having murshid /guidance in Sikh Dharam is quite alright but bowing down his tomb or pics is not *Gurmat* because we are told to rise our brithi over body(deh) and knot it with shabad Jot Guru.

If baba vadbhag singh ji was in panj bhootak chola now, i doubt he be very pleased looking at the manmat (bowing down to tombs, pictures) happening at his dera. After all, he gave utmost respect to sri guru gobind singh ji bachans and scriptures.

There is no point discussing anything further. Be a true Sikh, acknowledge some of the stuff happening in the dera is manmat do not take sides.

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:LOL:

“bowing to pics, tombs(samadh).â€

There is no samadh you have made that up babaji antam sanskar is on a total different side of the mountain, as for bowing to pictures there is nothing wrong with that I use a photo of babaji sometimes just as a souce of warmth but I know the picture means nothing and I believe when I do bow to a picture all my faculties are intact when I do it, plus this is not a Brahmin place or muslim place so does not defy maryada have a look:

“veneration of any graves, of monuments erected to honour the memory of a deceased person or of cremation sites, idolatry and such like superstitious observances (Most, though not all, rituals and ritual or religious observances listed in this clause are hindu rituals and observances. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continues to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to new faith and a large bulk of the Sikhs novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus' secular and religious life which the Brahmin priests managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by the his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromise. That the Sikh novitiates included a sizeable number of Muslims is shown by inclusion in this clause of the taboos as to the sanctity of graves, shirni etc.)

Not owning up or regarding as hallowed any place other than the Guru's place- such, for instance, as sacred sports or places of pilgrimage of other faiths.

Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible.â€

“Sri Guru Gobind Singh not only spoke against bowing to tombs, pics in Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib but mocked them as well if you read the scriptures carefully.â€

I don’t disagree with this statement in fact I interpret his words to mean that with time such practices of devotion lead to ritualism and no one has the devotion anymore but just follow blindly what the others are doing, he did not say you are anti gurmat if you bow to a picture but because some other people have interpreted that way after several generations we too have become ritualised but along linguistic level of interpretation, so like I said before there is method in the madness if you would like an eg, people who get married when possessed have to do reverse lavans aroung SGGS and then they carry out a pretend procession with a band and lots of mitaai for sagan etc that way the thing then gets unmarried from the host body, only if you ask questions and engage in dialogue are you going to understand but a blanket opposition, well you might aswell shoot yourself in the foot because it will not resolve anything.

“Sikh Of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar is only upasakh of shabad guru not any tomb, pics. Having murshid /guidance in Sikh Dharam is quite alright but bowing down his tomb or pics is not *Gurmat* because we are told to rise our brithi over body(deh) and knot it with shabad Jot Guru. â€

I don’t know why you use word nirankar but I agree to first line about shabad but unfortunately my mum could not sit in the gurdwara without swearing cos she hated bani so your method did not work for those who are possessed in my opinion, I do not agree with second line a sikh has unbroken lineage with god and only needs gurshabad for salvation with the use of his/her mental faculties which is impossible if your possessed. I don’t need murshid only satsang cos we are all equal but I respect your right to have a mushid as an individual and i will not label you manmat.

You then say will babaji not think badly of the dera my answer is no cos his hava and narsingh hava are still there cos they go into people who are possessed and shake them violently and no one can just do it or fake it even scientist cant explain shakti but its ok if you are sceptic, and don’t ask me to accept it as manmat I don’t agree with you fullstop and I have no disrespect for you either I am not a begger asking for your permission it is already gods hukum and mortals can change nothing. Its very fashionable to say manmukh and manmat today sort of like kaffir what does that say about our growing trend of intolerance, i have been to loads of deras radhasoami, naamdhari and plenty more cant think of them all cos theres so many i must be a megamanmukh. :cry: even though i still only believe in the guru granth and guru panth i guess i will still be labelled by the gurmukhs amongst you, thats ok i can live with that. :!: be detached inside yourself and you will not be stained by anything :idea:

Now can sikhism accept Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji as an entity well within the divine scheme and hukum of akal purakh?

Sorry if I have offended,

Isdhillon

:)

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people usually go to that dera for maya , sons , wealth or especially when they are tormented by evil spirits .

If a Sikh follow his guru jis hukam no such thing will evr happen to him .

even if a sikh needs something he will do ardaas to guru ji rather than going to the dera and bowing down to Baba Vadhbhag Singh for his needs .

SIKHS can die but they never leave their own Guru . THey only ask for something from their own Guru .

And our Guru is Guru Nanak and we only go to his dera .

Ucha Dar Babe Nanak Da .

and moreover in the video , i saw tht Baba Vadhbhag singh's foto was made like Guru Arjan DEv jis foto . And they were quoting shabds from gurbani saying about the importance of a guru and referring them to Baba Vadhbhag Singh . meaning they wr using gurbani to do ustat of Baba vadhag singh not our real Guru ji .

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I was once initiated by a radhasoami baba before i found out about sikhi. they lie. they claim they are descended from teh Gurus - a claim that is so absurd it can only be believed if a person thinks that the Guru faked his own death, abandoned the Khalsa during a time of war and great need, and secretly moved to another place living for over 130 years.

I have read their books. they are quite insidious with these anti-Gurmat lies. I recognise that many of them have a lot of kamai. But just having kamai doesn't make a person holy, or a saint. conduct is important as well. Lies and misdirection, leading people away from Gurbani, calling Amrit an empty ritual and saying that people need to be joined to them to actually have a guru - they do all these things.

So... no, mainstream Sikhi cannot accept people like these as true sikhs. And with good reason.

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Gurfateh

Dear xylitol,

Well Baba Wadbhag Singh can not be put in line with Radhswamis or Namdharis.

and to brother indy,

Well if while having pictures and grave/Samadh worship etc. is there at dera due to ritaulism creeping in.And there are supernatural powers.

Well das can assure you that these are lmited powers.

By worship of Akal and will of Akal we move as Guru told us in three scriptures.

So it is som thing else that Gosht comes unto us and we remove it with Help of Dera.

But Gurbani has power to make us enter the body of Ghost and make Ghost work as we want.Baba Wadbhag Singh dera may not have such power.

Lastly das request you that in future if you have similar problem then try to visit Karamsar Gurudwara at ilford,essex of Rara Sahib.

If Akal permits,they will make you as kamai wallah as Baba Wadhbhag Singh Ji.

Gurubani makes as same as Guru Gobind Singh ji himself.

In UK you could contact Sanatan Sikhs also for help.May be it is first chance that you swa this dera only.there are still many deras with more powers.But all is false other then Akal.

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Gurfateh

Order of Bhai Amritpal Singh Ji on forehead and head ie sirmaathe par.

Well dear bro IS Dillion,

Das opposed picture or idol or dead based upon what is Told in Dasham Granth and Sarbolh Granth.

Yuo can get status of Baba Vadhbhag Singh by Namabhays.There are books on it and they help by qouting from Gurbani.

There is verse by Akal onto Bhagat Namdev Ji,

Bhariav Bhhot Sitala Dhayve...

It tells that occult does not leads us to salvation.

Das knos that Baba Vadhbhag Singh has power but you can have same power within you.

You can be Swaroop of Guru Gobind Singh as by Khalsa(Sarbloh Granth).and we are not Tantics but yogis ie Raj Yogis.

If you want to come on our side then das can help you,We have Balbeer Singh Ji also here and and on spn who could put more light on that stage when sprit also does not exist.Akal Bless.

(Das has givne the referance from historic texts which are beyond bound of time as being wriitan by Guru)(Raj Leela Tere Naam Banai,Jog Baniya Tera Kirtan Gayee).

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