Ram Rai Darbar, Dehra Dun

[Freed]

GurFateh !

The Ram Rai Darbar - Dehra Dun

Before starting this post I wish to state that it is not my intention to offend anybody , I understand and respect Guru Sahib's Hukum to not associate with RamRai's - because of the distortion of Gurbani by Ram Rai - I am posting merely to show how some monuments from the Guru's time are still maintained in their original state and not 'beautified' with modern Marble.. Also I would like to know if any members have visited the darbar or have any information about it - the info I have found on the net suggests the Dera and 'Samadh' of Ram Rai was funded by Aurangzeb and the architecture also suggest that.

Perhaps our Udasi and Nirmalla members could shed some light on the matter - as one of the quotes imply that Udasi's look after the Darbar.

Again I do not wish to upset anyone -- I feel this Wonderful Building is Beautiful and considering it was built in 1687 with 19th century additions in very good repair. It is also an interesting mixture of Mughal domes and minarets with 'Story Telling' fresco paintings.

Enjoy the pictures and Please Share any information you have on the site - Please accept my apologies if this post offends or upsets anyone - I am posting it purely for aesthetic reasons - as members of SA will know I have a passion - bordering on obsession - for Pictures of all things related to Sikhi and architecture !

Here are the Pictures - taken from this site ;

http://rdlm.photos.free.fr/index.html#1

The Guru Ram Rai Darbar , Dehra Dun

Some information I found ;

*from http://keywords.oxus.net/archives/2005/01/11/dehradun/

The city was founded by Guru Ram Rai, an heir to the seventh Sikh guru, Har Rai . He was disowned, apparently over a matter of textual interpretation (although I am inclined to believe there must have been more to the story than this). Although Ram Rai was disowned and excommunicated by his father, he was a favorite of Emperor Aurangzeb who, in 1675, granted him land in the “present site of Dehra Dun” (quoting from Lonely Planet’s India guidebook, which seems to erroneously assert that Rai Ram founded the Udasi sect of the Sikh religion). The word “Dehra” means “camp” and the name of the town comes from the camp set up by Guru Ram Rai. Today their is a beautiful mausoleum which Aurangzeb ordered to be built upon Ram Rai’s death in 1687, with an outer structure built at the end of the 19th century. It is a fantastic structure which is currently being restored. I will post some pictures when I get home. Lonely Planet asserts that it is devotees of the Udasi sect which now maintain the mausoleum, known as the Ram Rai Darbar, but I was told that it is actually done by Hindus. There were definitely both Hindus and Sikhs worshiping there, just as both Hindus and Muslims seem to worship at the temple devoted to a local Sufi saint . (There are a significant number of Muslims and Tibetan Buddhists here.)

* From http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/sikhism/minas.html

Ram Raiyas were the followers of Ram Rai (1646-87), who was the elder son of Guru Har Rai. Ram Rai changed a word of the Adi Granth, from a hymn that was seen to be demeaning to Muslims at the court of the Emperor Aurangzeb. This pleased the emperor and displeased Har Rai who expelled him. Ram Rai then set up a dera (camp/shrine) in the Dun valley from the grant given to him by Aurangzeb.

[tSingh]

A strange place. I'm not quite sure what to think. For example, tradition records (courtesy of Parchian of Baba Sewa Das Udasin and others) that after Ram Rai atoned for his errors to Guru Gobind Singh ji, his wife appealed to Guruji when Ram Rai's own sevaks killed him when he was in samadhi. Guru ji advises to instal an Udasi mahant there, and hence the tradition has continued since. Prof. Trilochan Singh, author of Sikh Missionary Society published intro book on Sikhi also adds that the Udasis here are sound. So I went there, had a nice tour from a budha dal nihang baba but was surprised for the veneration of Ram Rai himself.

[Freed]

Dear tSingh,

Thankyou for your response - enlightening as always , just one more question what form does the 'worship' take - by that I mean does it have a Sikh flavour ie Gurbani sung or do they have their own tradition or incorporate the traditions of others .

Many Thanks !

[tSingh]

Its a samadh, so treated like one. People matha tek his smadh. His tap asthan is on display, smadhs also of his four wives around the main bit. There is also a room in which they have paintings of the rather wealthy affluent mahants who ran the place back when. The bit that troubled me was people matha-teking his painting. Prof. Trilochan Singh implies in his book that recently things have changed and got worse again. I don't know myself, but I was uncertain about just exactly why people were mathateking him (in the city his darbar commands respect since he is seen as dehra dun's founder). Were the Udasi mahants wanting people to mathatek him in full knowledge that he atoned for his earlier behaviour and was given respect in a sense by Guru ji, or is it because he is now seen as an important historical figure in the region and are quite happy to buy into and peddle the 'Guru Ram Rai' phenomenon?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Brother Tsingh Ji,

If das is not mistaken Ramraias Guru told us to dis accociate were those who killed Baba Ram Rai yet used used his name to claim to be his followers.

While actual followers of Baba Ram Ray became Udasis and still are Udasis.In Delhi also das did saw his Dear in Jhandewalan Area.Term Guru they used is not for Satguru but for Gurudev Ram Rai.This is differnat in the case of sodis of Guru Harsahi ie Minas.

[Amrit1972]

http://www.amritworld.com/questions/guruhistory_3.html

I have spent two years in the city of Dehradoon and visited the Ramrai's shrine for many times. I have witnessed even their annual festival 'Jhande Da Mela'.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Brother(Amritpal Singh Ji),

do you have any idea of rival group of Mahant Gurbax Rai ,who set up dera at Srinagar.Perhaps they could be the Ram Raias we are told to stay away.

Das can viait Srinagar in summers to see if that exist still or not but first das wants to confirm if they exist or not from yourself.

[Freed]

Here is another image I found of the Darbar from 1858

it is titled : General view of the Sikh temple at Dehra Dun, photographed by Robert and Harriet Tytler in 1858

[Freed]

The Jhanda at the Darbar - as mentioned by Amrit1972 Bhai Sahib - it is changed at the Jhande da mela

[Amrit1972]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted Ram Rai as a Guru. Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked Punjab Kaur to do Sikh 'Ardaas', which does not mention Ram Rai. If present followers of Ram Rai Darbar call Ram Rai 'Guru', they are Ram Raayeeye. Ofcourse, we should avoid them. The word 'Ram Raayeeya' makes the point very clear. A 'Ram Raayeeya' is a person, who follows Ram Rai and accepts him as a Guru. In Sikhism, there is no place for Ram Rai as a Guru.

[stopsingh]

Looks like whitewash has been used since 1858.

The 1858 picture shows no evidence of any white wash on the domes etc. The original weathered finish can be seen.

[Singh47]

Sort of looks like a mosque. In the 1858 picture, you can still the residue of the original white paint. Due to factors such as neglect, lack of money and of course whether, the paint seems to have worn off, although some of it can still be seen in that old picture near the corners and edges.