Tomb of the prophet's desdcendant rediscovered in East Punja

[amandeepm]

Take a look at the latest story on www.punjabheritage.org which reports the very latest discovery of a tomb of one of the Prophet's descendants in East Punjab. Forgotten since the partition in 1947 it became the property of the Buddha Dal who have some kind of guardianship ever since.

It was discovered only recently, almost by chance, and has been creating a great deal of interest in the muslim world.

Click onto the home page of Punjab heritage news on www.punjabheritage.org or straight to the news story

http://www.punjabheritage.org/index.php?op...56&Itemid=1

aman

[akaali]

yaaaaaa aliiiiii huuuuuu

[Singh47]

Akaal,

Why not ‘Yaa Allaah Huu’ instead of ‘Yaa Ali Huu’?

I will never understand why Shias say Yah Ali instead of Ya Allah.

[Dynamic_Banda]

same reason why we say dhan baba nanak insted of waheguru all the time

[Singh47]

Banda Jee, there is a bit of a difference. We revere our Gurus like we revere Vaheguru. For us they are God. But for Muslims, they don’t consider the prophet or the Imams as Allah. Infact I rarely have even seen a Shia even saying ‘Ya Rosool!’. It is as if they revere the Imams more than the prophet himself.

[Dynamic_Banda]

yep sure I agree they do have a tendancy to over do the imam reverence in place of the prophet (pbuh), this is because of the fact that believing in the imams is a strictly SHIA practice, so its more of an identity issue thing rather then seeing the imams as God, (as singh47 was asking when comparing use of Ali (imam) against Allah (God)

Similar practice can be seen as nanaksari sikhs have a tendancy towards always saying dhan baba Nanak, and baba Nanak this and baba nanak that, and the nihangs have a tendancy to always praise or include Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

[Singh47]

I guess you are right on the part that it is an identity issue for the Shias since they are the only ones in the Islamic world revering the Imams and what they symbolized.

[akaali]

dynamic banda, ur right on the ball

'yo , respsect' as ali g would say...

akaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllll

sri gurdev eh namayyyyy

[Guest Javanmard]

Vâhigurûjîkâkhâlsâ Vâhigurûjîkîfateh

If you allow me I would like to add some comments to some issues pointed out here:

1. Regarding the tomb itself:

As far as the descedance of Imam Reza (as) is concerned I would like to mention the fact that he only had one son, namely Imam Jawad (as). Imam Jawad (as) on the other hand had 32 children. It is quite possible that the grave is that of one of them.

2. Regarding the utterance of "Ya Ali" there are some misconceptions that need to be cleared up:

Based on the comments of Dynamic Banda and Singh47 it seems that invoking Imam Ali is considered as an exageration ("overdoing" as Dynamic Banda puts it). This derives from the fact that according to their understanding the Imams are NOT manifestations of God. This is surely a point of view shared not only by most Sunnis, Wahabbis and Kharijites but even some people following new developments in Ithna'shari Islam mostly in Iran and Lebanon. According to these Neo-Shi'as the Imams are nothing but super-scholars and not theophanic manifestations of God like the Gurus. According to Prof. Amir-Moezzi and Prof. Jambet from the Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes (one of the most presitgious French academic institutions) this is actually a recent development within Shi'ism. (see "The Divine Guide in Early Shi'ism by Amir-Moezzi). If we look at the early collections of hadiths a different picture emerges.

What seems to be quite clear is that:

a. The 14 Infallibles (Muhammad, Fatima and the 12 Imams starting with Imam Ali) are the manifestations of God's attributes. Imam Ali (as) says in his Khutba al Bayyan:

I am the sign of the Almighty. I am the First and the Last one. I am the zahir and the batin. I am the face of God. I am the hand of God. I am the side of God. I am the one who is referred to as Eli in the Gospel. I am the one who has the secret of God’s messenger

In another famous hadith Imam Jafar (as):

I said to Abu `Abdillah (as-Sadiq): “Tell me about the vision of God the Exalted and Glorified. Will the believers see Him on the Day of Judgment?†The Imam said: “Yes, and they have already seen Him before the Day of Judgment.†I so asked: “When?†To which he said: “When Allah said to them: “Am I not your Lord, and they said ‘Yes, Indeed!’†He then paused for a while and said: “Indeed, the believers see him in the world before the Day of Judgment. Do you not see Him right now?†(i.e., right now while he is sitting with the Imam). I said: “May I be your sacrifice! May I tell others about what you have said?†The Imam said: “No. If you tell this to people, the ignorant deniers will not understand it the way you would tell themâ€. As-Saduq 118 (as Saduq is an orthodox collection of hadiths)

b. That the 14 Infallibles are one light manifested in 14 persons. This is called metemphotosis or transmission of divine light.

c. That Imam Ali (as) clearly has a status at least equal to that of the Prophet (swas). This is stated in a hadith of Imam Jaffar (as) which is quoted in the Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi.

d. The utterance "Ya Ali Madad" (O Ali please help us) goes back to the Prophet (swas) himself. During the battle of Khaybar the army asked Imam Ali (as) for help as it was losing to the rebellious Jews of Khaybar who had broken their covenant. Imam Ali (as) came to the battlefield and his bravery led to victory. This is even accepted by Sunni hadith collections.

e. it seems that the Imams had a group of close disciples initiated into mystical practises who were dispensed from normal Islamic law thus clearly showing that their teaching were not reduced to shari'a and that shari'a itself was only a purgative stage before the stages of tariqa, ma'rifa and haqiqa.

3. Ithna'sharis are not the only ones to rever Imam Ali (as) and to say "Ya Ali". Barelvi Sunnis, most Sufi orders going back to Imam Ali (as), Ahl-i Haqq, Alevis and Ismailis do too. In fact Hazrat Jallaluddin Rumi wrote a text called Nad-e Ali where Imam Ali (as) is described as the manifested aspect of God through whose light the universes are created.

I hope it helped clearing missunderstandings.

[akaali]

hes back babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

hes backkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk