Respect for Gurbani !

[Guest Javanmard]

What about Guru Granth Sahib and gurbani being victimised in gurdware by those who are in charge be they committees or granthis?

Let me tell you a story:

It was amritvela at a very famous gurdwara in London whose name I won't mention. Because of a natural need I went to the toilets. Whilst I was doing that the main giani enters the toilets too. Whilst he was standing, with his pijame down and urinating he was reciting Jaap Sahib!

Yes, he was reciting Jaap Sahib whilst urinating. I couldn't say anything, I was just so shocked!!!

The same day we celebrated Guru Hargobind's gurpurab and because most people in the sangat were Nirmale and Nihangs we gave Maharaj the full honours of aart-aarta with flowers and incense.

You can guess who accused us of disrespecting Maharaj...

After all there is a huge difference between reciting Jaap Sahib whilst urinating and lovingly offering flowers!!!

And people wonder why I avoid gurdware and prefer to have sangat in private homes with dedicated Gursikhs!!!

Committes have no legitimacy whatsoever so there is no point complaining to them. Make your own life a gurdwara, that's my solution!!!

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

when das was yuong das was told a story by grand mother(Maternal).

Once a person was sitting in jungle and excreating and saying Ram Ram Ram.

Hanuman Ji slaped him.When he went to Ram Ji,he saw that face of Rama was swolen and mark of slap were there.

Rama told that devotion can be done at any time and it was mistake on the part of Hanuman Ji.

It is more a legend but das does not find any harm while saying Gurbani being in any situation(til it is not sin say killing innocnet).

Anyway such libralism is due to Kala Affghanasim but why does thess people become feroutius when we do say Arti with flowers or lamps?

answer could be lack of faith in our God in them and they fear from nothinng called Hindusim absorbing us.

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Vidyadeep Singh

Is this another form of cheap antinomianism so frequent in today's India, another manifestation of the "kuch bhi" mentality? I noticed in today's India the love that people have for such non-sense stories about how much God doesn't care about formalities and that you can do whatever you want as long as you have "a pure heart". This sort of populist non-sense has brought about all kinds of irreverant types of behaviour. Just to name a few:

1. Even though Maharaj tells us to play kirtan in râg some people play it in Bollywood and bhangra tunes because they think their own "pure heart" has more authority than Guru Granth Sahib.

2. Even though Maharaj is the King of King, some people forbid aarti-aarta which is how kings are honoured because of their own fear of "Hinduism" (fear of a colonial illusion, how ridiculous!!!). Their own little fear becomes more important than honouring Maharaj.

3. A famous youth speaker in Sikh student circles in the UK was once sitting with his back to Maharaj in the darbar sahib. I told him:"X, you have your back turned to Maharaj!" Reply:" I am Maharaj's son, I can do whatever I want, he knows I love him". Another famous speaker had even his birthday celebrated in the darbar sahib with people throwing him in the air and cake all over his face. That same person condemns the use of incense and flowers but its ok to behave like monkeys in the darbar sahib because after all "we have a clean heart"!!! The same speaker criticised a devoted pure Gursikh for crying out of love when reading the Hukamnama.

And I could go on and on and on with stories like that.People who think that they are above the due respect we owe Maharaj. As you are a fan on Indian stories let me tell you a real one, that really happened, one that involves one of te greatest saints India has ever seen: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.

One of his disciples was Girish Chandra Gosh, a famous writer. He was a sinner: he would spend his nights in orgies in Calcutta's brothels. Sometimes he would meet Sri Ramarishna totally drunk. But he wanted to be saved. Sri Ramakrishna told him: "I am just going to ask you one thing: wherever you go, take Mother Durga with you". Girish obeyed and found himself unable to lead the sinful life he was leading before. After all how could he take Mother Durga to a brothel?

Another story from the B-40 Janamsakhi:

A Sikh was reciting Japuji Sahib whilst trapped in a thorn bush. At that moment Guru Nanak was taking a bath and scratches appeared on his body, scratches made by thorns. Whenever you recite bani the Guru is with you.

Would you take Maharaj to a stinking toilet? Or would you rather honour Him like HE should be?

It's easy to quote stories. Everyone can come up with stories to justify their deeds but in the end what countsis honouring Maharaj as He deserves. It is the "kuch bhi" mentality that is leading many Sikhs away from the path of love. But then again this Kal Jug, I shouldn't be surprised!

[Singh47]

Although reciting Bani or Naam whilst answering the call of nature is not what I would do, but I don’t exactly think that we can think of this as a sinful act. Doesn’t bani tell us to do Simran at all moments Uthdhay, Bathdhay, Suthay, Jaagdhay etc. In India I noticed that in the Pends (villages) elderly people need to get up in the middle of the night several times answering the call of nature, and almost all the times I notice them reciting some bani or remembering Vaheguru by saying “VAHGURU, VAHGURUâ€.

In India I have heard of stories of Sants near my village who do Paat or Simran at all moments. When I ask even when they go to the washroom? The villagers say yes, at all time.

This is not just amongst the Sikhs, but in India I notice even Hindus do Ram Ram Ram Ram when doing anything, whether it is driving a car, or getting up from a chair they chant ‘Hey Ram…†and yes even then answering the call of nature.

Even dedicated Buddhists keep on with their insight meditation while answering the call of nature.

These things may seem disrespectful for many Sikhs in the west, but in India this is a way of life. People don’t see this as ‘disrespectful’ as Christians, Muslims or Jews might see it. Indians have a different perspective of things.

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Singh47

you are right in your observations that many people in India and elsewhere in the world including Christians, Muslims and others do that. It is indeed not rare to find people recite Vahiguru or any other name whilst sneezing, burping, farting etc...be it in India, Russia or France. In fact I have seen granthis fart and burp in Maharaj's hazuri. Yes even a "devoted" giani in a village who urinated on the tabia whilst doing akhand paath! Vahiguru!!!

But it is equally true that rahitname for Sikhs, puranic literature for Vaishnavas and Shaivas and Sunnah for Muslims clearly put emphasis on BOTH bodily and spiritual purity! Aren't we supposed to perform ishnan before doing paath? Aren't we supposed to do panj ishnan before meeting Maharaj? Don't some rahitname clearly say we should NOT take our Sri Sahib when urinating and defecating out of respect? Isn't it precisely why we have miniature kirpans for that reason?

This habit that some people have to identify pindu culture with Indian culture is ridiculous and annoying .i.e. the idea that "true India" (i.e. the pind for many people) is more relaxed than the West and more authentic because it is less constrained by etiquettes. The fact remains that Indian religions have very often clear rules about cleanliness and etiquette regarding the recitation of sacred texts.

Regarding dedicated Buddhists meditating whilst defecating: as a Sikh I don't have to take shunyavadis (followers of the Void) as an example when my Guru has told me to avoid shunyavadis!

Guru is bani and bani is Guru, end of story. When you recite bani you should do the outmost to give respect to Maharaj. Just because some pindus don't care about etiquette doesn't mean Sikhi and other Indian religions don't have etiquette.In fact you will find people in villages who don't do what Singh47 described.

By the same token I have observed that any young amritdharis in the diaspora (UK, Canada, USA) equal being a "real Singh" with acting as pindu as possible. This is truly sad!!! An order of sacred knighthood reduced to behaving like philistines! Yes the pind has its charms, and I am the first one to admit it. Nothing tastes better than buffalo milk indeed, there is nothing better than waking up naturally at 3-4 am like everyone else, nothing like having gur with your cha, nothing like the sheer beauty of simplicity! Indeed I love all of that but as a Sikh I follow the examples of my Gurus not the behaviour of people in pinds or elsewhere because people are fallible!!!

My Gurus asked us to be clean whilst reciting nâm and bâni and defecating or urinating whilst doing pâth or simran goes against that.

[Singh47]

1. The Pendus which you seem to have so much contempt for are the backbone of Sikh uprisings through Sikh history. Sikh armies since the start of Militancy in Sikh history made the bulk of the armies. City dwellers no where to be seen. True India is in the villages of India not the cities. Over 70% of India’s population is made up of villagers. The trend to go the cities is a recent phenomenon in India which started at the beginning of the 20th century.

Pretty much most if not all Sikh mystics, Sants, warriors were born and brought up as rustic Pendus. In know that in your mind the ideal Sikh is like the tight assed, neatly groomed, well mannered Persian knight or a Kshatiya warrior. But the truth is, Sikh warriors are simply following the values which have been passed off to them by their Guru(who were also Pendus!). The concept of Anakh or Izzat are enshrined in all Pendus.

2. You did not mention in your first post about Sucham. Sucham while doing seva of Guru Maharaj is a different issue all together. Your issue with the Granthi was “Why was the Granthi doing Paat or Simran at the urinal or toilet while answering the call of natureâ€. My point is, this is not considered disrespectful in India as it is in the west which has a Semitic background and thinks like Semites where such things are considered disrespectful.

Indians tend to remember God when they do anything or everything, maybe this is the influence of the Bhagti movement. Indians will say the name of God before eating, when in pain, when feeling good, when answering the call of nature, before and during driving a car, and also during the last moments of life right before death.

3. My point in mentioning Buddhists was that the Buddh Dharm is also Indian in origin. They share common values to Indian faiths. Their personal idealogy is their own business.

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Singh47,

The Gurus founded cities and lived in cities. I don't think Lahore, Anandpur, Patna or Amritsar (Ramdaspur, pur means city) are villages.

If I really had contempt for pindus I wouldn't have said that I do enjoy many aspects of village life. So please do NOT misinterpret my words.

There are certainly great qualities in the villagers of Panjab like anakh, honesty, generosity and a certain manliness. These are no doubt great qualities which I have experienced myself, especially in the Majha area. It is not for nothing that Guru Gobind Singh Ji mentions the Brars in his Zafarnama. At the same time there were also other great Sikh warriors who had an urban education whose names you will find in the battles of Bachitar Natak like Sango Shah and others. People who spoke Persian and Braj and whom you would probably qualify as "tight assed, neatly groomed, well mannered Persian knight or a Kshatiya warrior".

You do have good points Singh 47 no doubt but sometimes you reduce or exagerate things which can be dangerous.Not all great mystics,Sants and warriors were villagers I am afraid.

You praise the notion of izzat and this is fantastic but it is also in the name of a misinterpretation of this notion (and also economical factors) that Panjab's villages are killing their baby girls.

I don't want to put everyone in the same basket. Yes there are beautiful people in Panjab's villages but I have also met domestic violence, alcoholism and superstition. These do also exist in cities no doubt, but just because villagers do that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

My point is that you try to portray an opposition between India and the West as if in India there was only one position, namely the one you descrbe. If you were to go to villages in Greece or Sicily it would be practically the same. All I am saying is that things are a bit more complex even in villages. True most people in India are villagers but this doesn't mean that villages are the centers of culture.

Sikhis was born in cities and then spread to the villages. The culture of our Gurus was an urban culture not a regional one and I am afraid you are reducing it to a regional one.

[Guest]

Great debate guys, but i m afriad they were off-topics, so i had to spilt the posts into diffferent new topic - Respect for bani.

Please continue.

[Singh47]

1. The Gurus were not city folks like contemporary business savvy Khatris. The early Gurus conducted their business and lived amongst the villagers of the suburbs of Punjab. Nankana Sahib was originally a small village with vast farmlands from where we hear stories of Guru Nanak Dev Jee’s childhood. After the doing the Udasis, Guru Nanak dev Jee settled at Kartarpur adorned pendu clothing and started doing farming which further proves the simple yet Pendu lifestyle of the Gurus. Sri Guru Angad Dev Jee also came from a similar background when he first met Guru Nanak Dev Jee as Bhai Lehna Jee. Being a Punjabi Khatri does not automatically mean one is a Sheheri (city folk). Due to circumstances and dangers of the time, the 5th Guru and the later Gurus had to adopt some royal practices such as maintaining body guards, armies, forts but that does not cover up their Pendu past.

Amritsar, Anandpur or other cities which were founded by the Gurus were not cities at the time of our Gurus. Anandpur Sahib was different with the exception that it also included fortifications, trenches due to the clear dangers of the time. But the other cities founded by the Gurus like Amritsar were mere villages with small populations. Similarly Bombay or Goa were originally small villages just 300 years ago, but now they are great urban centers of India whose populations are in the millions. Delhi was a mere village during the times of Prithvi Raj Chouhan a 1000 years ago, but like Bambay it is a large city with populations numbering in the millions.

[Guest Javanmard]

"The Gurus were not city folks like contemporary business savvy Khatris"

I never said that. As you keep putting words and ideas I haven't written or intended and as it is obvious from our past interaction that you and I are like oil and water I will just abstain from responding to your posts. I didn't come back on this forum in order to repeat our past virtual encounters. I just think I have more constructive things to do with my time than discussing with someone who calls the King of Kings, our Guru a "pendu". There are certain things I just can't take. Sorry Singh47, have a nice life!

[Singh47]

If you dont want to do Vichaar then that is your choice.

But how did you come to the conclusion that calling someone a "Pendu" is a bad thing? I think that Pendu is a good thing, in fact it is a GREAT thing! It is something to be proud of. Pendu heritage is full of Shaheeds, Great warriors, scholars, Pirs, Fakirs, Sufis, Jogis, Sants and most importantly the Great Gurus! I am proud of my ancestoral Pendu past as it is a legecy of authentic Punjabi Sabhiachar BRRRRAAAAAA!!!

[unbreakable]

..

[Guest]

Typical Pendu Life - High Caste people sit on their arse all day while choraie work like slaves in their house and in the khet.

I am sure you proud of that singh47?

I am sure punjab daie Guru Sahiban and Bhramgyanis were much above than pendu thinking. Guru Sahib and Bhramgyani had bhram dristhi *NOT* Cham dristhi(judging others by skin, color, work, status in soceity) which pendu's seem to quite enjoy and be proud of it.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das bows head to great Singhs Bhai Javanmard and Singh47 to give such and enlightened thought.

Das realy agree to Bhai Javanmard that we need to manitan some decorum as just with all nonesense we may becaome like those types of Hindusim,who are prode to accociate jainsim,budhism and charkvak philosophy as thtier religeon while these threes are more a living scinces then faith.

Das can say that it could be wrong say if someone being Amritdhair say wahiguru while cutting hairs or smoking.

Das again thanks you for such a guidance and das agreees that his Grandmother needed to be more mature but she was after all a Hindu.

Das anyway saw one of his late Hindu reative,who had realtion with some Sikh Sants of Patiayala,Das was hindu at that time.

He use toread Gurbani without covering the head and often use to smoke cigraate.What should be stand of das if he sees such thing again in future?

[Guest Javanmard]

My advice would be to explain to that person why it is offensive. If that person doesn't change than give three warnings. The Khalsa is the way of compassion first, one should always give opportunity for people to change.If after that the person still continues to be offensive then sever all links with that person and avoid that person.

[Singh47]

Unbreakable Bhaji, how is the last post a defeated post? Just because I defended Punjabi Sabhiachaar I automatically lost the debate? Lalleshwari Jee is the one who said he wants to pull out of the debate not me.

[Singh47]

N30 Singh, have you even been exposed to city life in India? The Bhaya community also work as servants in the cities just as they do in the Pends. They get paid for their service, that's not slavery. Slavery is when one person is literally owned by another person. Employment is not slavery. I think that you should visit dictionary.com or wikipedia.com and look up the definition of 'employment' and 'slavery'.

[Singh47]

It seems like it is an open season on Punjabi sabhiachaar. Even Sikhs in the west seem to want to bash Punjabi Sabhiachaar because of their addiction and fancy for western culture. I guess our rustic Sabhiachaar may seem a little too crude for their refined western ways. Maybe that is why westernized Sikhs like to speak English with their children instead of the language of their Guru and ancestors i.e. Punjabi. Maybe it could be an inferiority complex.

If you guys fancy western life, western culture that is fine. Personally I am proud of Sikh heritage which has it roots in the Pends of Punjab. The same Pends of Punjab which have given birth to Gurus, Soormay, Sufis, Pirs, Sants, Jogis, Lovers, Warriors and Poets of legendary proportion. I may live in the west, but at least I know where my roots are from.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Singh47,

I am not writing the below in reference to the wider debate only on your closing comments concerning Punjabiyat;

<<<Even Sikhs in the west seem to want to bash Punjabi Sabhiachaar because of their addiction and fancy for western culture>>>

Maybe it is worth opening a new thread on this topic (NEO - we'll leave this to you), since it is one I feel often get mistakenly overlooked and I 'personally' differ from your take on things slightly.

Yes, there is a problem with people in the West shying away from Punjabi or those with Southall 'Rude Bway' sentiments preferring to have names like "HAR JIT", "Parms", "MANJ" etc etc pronounced with wide boy accents, at the same time, we have others who regard themselves as pooran Gursikh Khalsa wishing to deny Punjabiyat since they see it and Sikhi as Mutually Exclusive.

I feel we should discuss both, particularly the latter which seems to be on the rise, especially on the internet and clearly stems from a lack of understanding of what it means to be Punjabi and what is Punjabiyat, which for them is nothing but Bhangra, Drink, Caste, Macho, Sexist and in short Jatt-poona, which I am sure we can agree is a gross misrepresentation.

Likewise, I feel we should perhaps (NEO - may a third new thread) consider a discussion on non-Punjabi Sikhs, by which I don't mean 3HO per se, but non-Punjabi from the Sub-continent and surrounding areas (so from Nanded to Kabul), since much of sikh history in books and online seems to be focused exclusively on Punjabi Sikhs and conclusions are drawn from this angle.

Some topics related to the last part would be perhaps for us to reconsider topics such as Banda Singh Bahadur and the Tat and Bandai Khalsa divide (predominantly a Punjabi Sikh issue, although you can find plenty of non-Punjabi Sikhs today holding these views given the aforementioned issue), the Dal Khalsa of the Sikh Misls (again a Punjabi Sikh union in the main and not all inclusive Panthic Union as modern history seeks to make out).

I leave it to the forum members and Veers Singh47, NEO and others to take forward as they see fit.

[Guest]

N30 Singh, have you even been exposed to city life in India? The Bhaya community also work as servants in the cities just as they do in the Pends. They get paid for their service, that's not slavery. Slavery is when one person is literally owned by another person. Employment is not slavery. I think that you should visit dictionary.com or wikipedia.com and look up the definition of 'employment' and 'slavery'.

dude lets not assume i havent been exposed to city life, after all i was born in india, i know more punjabi both in literature language than abcd, cbcd here.

I know what's the difference between slavery and employement...

I am talking about how in pends, people discriminate against low caste people.

Lets see if pendu thinking is ever been changed or something we should be proud of,

show me one villager who is willing to approve their daughter/son choice to get married to low caste.

show me one example where owner of the house, helping out low caste bibi who works there in house in time of her gestation/pregnancy period,

show me one example where owner of the house in the pend, has treated low caste people with respect and dignity, would have sat them down to the level they are sitting.

I have heard many low caste women get even raped in the khets by soo called superamist jat war lords in the pend, thinking absoultely alright to shag a woman with low caste against her will, obviously she will not speak up. you cannot deny that this does not happen in punjab pends...

Oh lets not forget kuri mar, nari mar tradition of the people with pendu thinking.

Vah Ji Vah.great penu mat to be proud of.

How can you call Guru- Pendu or supported pendu thinking, despite of all these differences between pendu thinkin and Guru's way of thinking?

Singh47 you are debating here for just sake of debating, you got no real sources that guru's were pendus or supported pendu thinking.

As i said, Guru's looked others with bhram dristhi not CHAM DRISTHI. This whole world looks at things as "Cham Dristhi" but Vahiguroo daie pyare- Guru Sahiban and Bhramgyanis look at whole world as Bhram Dristhi. Guru's supporting pendu's thinking claim, i think that's a biggest insult to an Guru. Obviously, you think it's alright, may be you got different defination of pendu or pendu thinking than me based on your expereinces.

[Guest]

SMS, yes it's a great idea. Please open new threads on topics discussed in this thread which need full and wider attention.

[akaali]

Guru's supporting pendu's thinking claim, i think that's a biggest insult to an Guru. Obviously, you think it's alright, may be you got different defination of pendu or pendu thinking than me based on your expereinces.

This is why javanmard stopped posting to ur questions singh47, not cause he cannot answer. respect someone if u want to gain some knowledge from them.

[Singh47]

N30 Singh, you talk of the rapes and caste based discrimination in the Pends only, so does that mean this does not occur in the cities? Nothing is perfect. I never said that Pendu society is a utopian society. Criminal activity happens in every society.

Rapes, caste based discrimination occurs at the pends, but you fail to see the Gurus, Pirs, Fakirs, Sants, Sadhus, Jogis, poets, shaheeds, warriors, lovers that have also come from the Pends. Or do you just want to ignore that aspect of Pendu heritage and only focus on the bad things?

If you notice the bad things, then don’t ignore the goodness in the Pends, because the goodness that has come from the Pends far outweighs the badness.

“show me one villager who is willing to approve their daughter/son choice to get married to low caste.â€

My family is of Jatt background. My Chacha Jee married a woman out of his caste and my family was alright with it.

A family from my Nankay who are related to AKJ married their daughter to a Singh from a Suniara background.

“show me one example where owner of the house in the pend, has treated low caste people with respect and dignity, would have sat them down to the level they are sitting.â€

My family full of Pendus, seats the Chamars at the same level as them in our village. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay (another man with Pendu roots!) also use to seat Sikhs of all caste backgrounds with him without discrimination. From what I have read and heard from Singhs, so did Baba Manochal and Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Shaheed Jugraj Singh and countless other examples of Sikhs from Pendu background. So what are you talking about? If you can give plenty of examples of Sikhs who discriminate, I can give you plenty of examples of Pendu Sikhs who do treat with equality the Sikhs of other castes.

[Singh47]

Akaali, I gain knowledge using my own Babek Buddhi or ability or discern right form wrong. I don’t just blindly follow what other write just because they have a PhD or that they were born and raised in the west. A PhD or a western background may impress others, but not me. Truth is, his arguments were totally flawed without any substance that is why he pulled out.

[Guest]

N30 Singh, you talk of the rapes and caste based discrimination in the Pends only, so does that mean this does not occur in the cities? Nothing is perfect. I never said that Pendu society is a utopian society. Criminal activity happens in every society.

yes it does happen in the cities. However, if it happened in the cities, In my opnion, it happened in the cities because influence of pendu thinking/mentality. Lot of pendu people had creep into cities and started polluting the cities as well with their thinking. Still last time i went to India, atleast in cities you will see posters everywhere regarding awareness against people who commit kuri mar, i been to atleast 10 pends in my previous visit from various districts. I see no of that is happenning.

You can bring great exceptional cases of great saints who followed Gurmat, even though they were born in Pendu they followed Gurmat, Not Pendumat. Once a person start following Gurmat, they started adapting virtue of seeing bhram in everyone regardless of castes.

I don't think names you have mentioned were pendus at all. Might be from Pendu back ground but once again just because you were born in pend.. does not mean that you are pendu since you havent adapted the pendu thinking.

Just because Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in Hindu family, that didn't made him Hindu.

A family from my Nankay who are related to AKJ married their daughter to a Singh from a Suniara background.

I am assuming (defaniately correct me if i m wrong) based on my expereince with akj people and their ideology,I am assuming that singh from suniara back ground must be AKJ as well. If yes, then need i say anything? I rest my case.

If he is not from Akj, that's very good news..defaniately to the road of embracing diversity within Sikhi.