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Free will


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If one goes through the entire SGGS ji one finds that almost every action Of ours is governed by the destiny or pre-ordained as most of the translators have used while translating the Bani into English.In view Of so many qoutations contained in the form of HIs grace, Hukum, His will, destiny, theory of Karma and pre-ordained are we really left with any Free will that we can do something that we want to do? Is it so? Really.I need your help

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from what i have gathered....the difference between hukam and free will is quite simple....imagine a fish swimming in a stream, he can either choose to swim against the flow of the stream, try to rush to fast down the stream or swim steadily at the same pace of the stream....but when it comes to it the fish will arrive at the same destination....its is the same thing with us....we are all under hukam or a pre-ordained destiny, but it is our own free will wht we choose to do day to day....we are given opportunities and chances and guides etc....but its up to us if we follow them or ignore them....but we all have something in store for us by the end of......i reccomend everyone to read 'the alchemist' by Paulo Cohelo.....brilliant book....gets u thinking about these things....i hope i was of some help.....

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from what i have gathered....the difference between hukam and free will is quite simple....imagine a fish swimming in a stream, he can either choose to swim against the flow of the stream, try to rush to fast down the stream or swim steadily at the same pace of the stream....but when it comes to it the fish will arrive at the same destination....its is the same thing with us....we are all under hukam or a pre-ordained destiny, but it is our own free will wht we choose to do day to day....we are given opportunities and chances and guides etc....but its up to us if we follow them or ignore them....but we all have something in store for us by the end of......i reccomend everyone to read 'the alchemist' by Paulo Cohelo.....brilliant book....gets u thinking about these things....i hope i was of some help.....

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ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਆਖਣੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥

Hukam so­ī tudh bhāvsī hor ākhan bahut apār.

The Hukam of Your Command is the pleasure of Your Will, Lord. To say anything else is far beyond anyone's reach.

We as egocentric beings have a need and belief that everything is within our comprehension.

We think we have free will, power, we do, in our limited and illusionery understanding of life.

We can be seen to make decisions and live our life how we choose, but all is within his hukum, each step, each thought, each breath. We do not need to reconcile the 2, the illusion (power/free will) exists with the truth.

ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥

Ākhan jor chupai nah jor.

No power to speak, no power to keep silent.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ ॥

Jor na mangan dėn na jor.

No power to beg, no power to give.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥

Jor na jīvan maran nah jor.

No power to live, no power to die.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥

Jor na rāj māl man sor.

No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

Jor na surtī gi­ān vīchār.

No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥

Jor na jugtī chhutai sansār.

No power to find the way to escape from the world.

ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

Jis hath jor kar vėkhai so­ė.

He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੩੩॥

Nānak utam nīch na ko­ė. ||33||

O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

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[quote="shaheediyan"]ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸੋਈ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਆਖਣੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥

Hukam so­ī tudh bhāvsī hor ākhan bahut apār.

The Hukam of Your Command is the pleasure of Your Will, Lord. To say anything else is far beyond anyone's reach.

We as egocentric beings have a need and belief that everything is within our comprehension.

We think we have free will, power, we do, in our limited and illusionery understanding of life.

We can be seen to make decisions and live our life how we choose, but all is within his hukum, each step, each thought, each breath. We do not need to reconcile the 2, the illusion (power/free will) exists with the truth.

ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥

Ākhan jor chupai nah jor.

No power to speak, no power to keep silent.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ ॥

Jor na mangan dėn na jor.

No power to beg, no power to give.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥

Jor na jīvan maran nah jor.

No power to live, no power to die.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥

Jor na rāj māl man sor.

No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

Jor na surtī gi­ān vīchār.

No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥

Jor na jugtī chhutai sansār.

No power to find the way to escape from the world.

ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

Jis hath jor kar vėkhai so­ė.

He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੩੩॥

Nānak utam nīch na ko­ė. ||33||

O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

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  • 1 month later...

Do not withdraw i would like to add my thoughts to this.

In Jap Ji Sahib it says

ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥

On the first step of the ladder there is individual will a seeker makes efforts very hard effort even just to get onto the ladder. As the ladder is climbed free will decreases. But a ladder can only be climbed through effort. But the subtle body which is climbing becomes lighter as it ascends the breath of the lord causes it to waft upwards. Through increasing incoporeality the lord takes over. Higher rungs correspond to less will, the upwards journey requires less effort, the gravity becomes weaker as you ascend

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  • 11 months later...

would love to here what others have to say about this topic, its an old one

correct me if im wrong, but gurbani is written on so many different levels from what i have seen. sometimes maharaj will write aape beej aape hi khaie, but then othertimes you will see lines, like shaheediyan posted, jith hath jor kar vekhai soe, nanak utam neech na koe

so is it possible that maharaj is speaking on different levels? as in, maharaj knows different people at different spiritual levels are going to read this, and thus people can look at it either way, but ultimately Rab controls and does everything.

how does this fit in with advait vedenta? tsingh? n3o? shaheediyan?

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"As the ladder is climbed free will decreases."

Veer Ji,

How are you defining free will?

In my understanding, the context of this discussion relays free will as that which man controls outside of Gods power/influence/command (as silly as that may sound).

To me, what you describe as free will is more akin to ego (even though in essence they may be one and the same).

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would agree fullly. it's all in his hands. but we also have free will. one needs avastha to understand this, intellectual flexibilty will not do.

i believe a good way to look at it is that we have free will, but only achieve results by His kirpa. This can avoid the trap of haumai from thinking we are the doer and also lethargy/passiveness from thinking that we cannot do anything. also, it's good to think that it is He who is doing paath, naam jap.

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  • 14 years later...

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