Dasam Granth sahib ji learnin...

[SAadmin]

I was wondering guys. Is there any takshals in india where they teach you dasam granth sahib ji???

I know one rara sahib. Sant teja singh ji rara sahib walie know whole dasam granth moo jabani (memorized) :shock: . But i dont know if he would give me the vidiya of dasam granth sahib ji. He comes out like 2 hrs only every day meet sangat. Rest of the time he spents in bhora sahib ji where he does his bhagti.

Is there any open takshals where gyanis can teach you dasam granth ???

[Mr §ingh]

I was wondering guys. Is there any takshals in india where they teach you dasam granth sahib ji???

I know one rara sahib. Sant teja singh ji rara sahib walie know whole dasam granth moo jabani (memorized) :shock: . But i dont know if he would give me the vidiya of dasam granth sahib ji. He comes out like 2 hrs only every day meet sangat. Rest of the time he spents in bhora sahib ji where he does his bhagti.

Is there any open takshals where gyanis can teach you dasam granth ???

I heard

www.Sikhitothemax.com

is bringing

a translation of Dasam Granth

I*VE HERD

but i aint sure

[Guest Javanmard]

Gurfateh

Sri Abchalnagar Hazur Sahib in Nanded teaches it as well as Sant baba Mohan Singh Bhindranvale's taksal. You might also try the Nirmala akharas in Haridvar, Khadur sahib. Learning the bani of Dasam Granth demands the knowledge of Braj, Persian, Sanskrit as well as very solid knowldege of Indian religions, religious literature and history. On top of that one needs to be aware of the structure of the Granth. The study of French structuralism might give new insights for those who are interested in exploring Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. The problem of some of these taksals is that they might not teach all of the sections. Unfortunately very few people still have the knwoledge to teach it beyong the popular sections.

[sukhsingh]

Rest of the time he spents in bhora sahib ji where he does his bhagti.

wat does bhagti mean???? is it like simran? :?:

[SAadmin]

Bhagti is constant-sittin down for days doin naam simran...

[jasdeepsinghbal]

The study of French structuralism might give new insights for those who are interested in exploring Dasam Guru Granth Sahib.

um excuze me but it shouldn't be labelled as GURU! there is only Sri Guru Granth Sahib and no other. its the Dasam Granth, not Dasam 'guru' Granth. also, its sources are questionable.

[jsb]

true but certain aspects an't be denied, and those should be taught.....example, jaap sahib..are you going to stop reciting jaap sahib because it's in the dasam granth? not at all! that's valid! as is zaffarnaama, and as is chandi di vaar... it should be taught, in nmy opinion....but calling it guru isn't right, i agree with you on that

[Mugermach Singh]

lol, u cant even decide who your guru is.

[sukhsingh]

lol, u cant even decide who your guru is.

GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MARAHAJ IS OUR GURU FOREVER.

PERIOD.

[Guest Javanmard]

Gurfateh

The Guru Granth Sahib is manifest in three forms: Adi Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib. Each complete each other perfectly and together they form the Guru Granth Sahib. The polycentric nature of the Guru Granth Sahib allows a multiplicity of permutations which, at the intellectual level is a manifestation of vismad (see Asa di var). Neo-SIkhs (SGPC and AKJ) deny the Guruship of Dasam Granth and Sarabloh Granth, their Sikhi is therefore incomplete for they have adopted Western notions of scriptural understanding. The fact remains that the Bible itself for example is made of several books of different nature and genres. The same thing with the Guru Granth Sahib except that it manifests itself in three different forms to avoid mental idolatry i.e. reducing the Divine to one single concept. The clearest example illustrating the Guruship of the three Granths is Shri Abchalnagar Sri Takht Hasur Sahib where the birs of Adi Guru Granth and Dasam Guru Granth are shown next to each other. Hazur Sahib has the oldest and purest maryada because of its remoteness i.e. it was nor affected very much by the Protestantisation of Sikhi during the British Raj by the Singh Sabha and Akali movements. It has therefore conserved all the age old authentic customs and ceremonies such as the display of the Guru Granth in its three forms, shahidi degh and jhatka. Its maryada is stricter and its nitnem is the purest of all. All the other SGPC maryadas are nor older than 80 years and man made. Sorry to dissapoint some people but we can't keep on living in lies.

love to all

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

"Gurfateh

The Guru Granth Sahib is manifest in three forms: Adi Guru Granth Sahib,

Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib."

No it is not, the Guru Granth Sahib is not manifest in three forms it is the

same Guru Granth Sahib that was decreed as our Guru by the only person with

the authority and qualification to do so namely Guru Gobind Singh.

"Each complete each other perfectly and together they form the Guru Granth

Sahib. The

polycentric nature of the Guru Granth Sahib allows a multiplicity of

permutations which, at the intellectual level is a manifestation of vismad

(see Asa di var)".

Quite simply they do not "complete each other perfectly" as you put it.

The Guru Granth Sahib is in itself complete, as one example how do you equate

the principal of gender equality as professed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in

Gurbani as contained within Guru Granth Sahib and carried forward in

practice by the Gurus in practice with the so called ' wiles of women' or

Istri Charitar which forms a large part of the Dasam Granth and contains

verses that speak of women in terms that cannot be imagined to be

attributable to Guruji. This is of course only one example and given that

Guruji himself did NOT accord Guru status to either the Dasam or Sarbloh

Granth it is mainly academic. It must also be remembered that the Dasam

Granth was only discovered more than twenty years after Guruji's passing

from this world. Guruji had many court poets in his court and it is

generally agreed that many of the compositions regarding Avatars and the

Goddess Durga along with the Istri Charitar are attributable to them. The

point being that whether or not you agree, the authenticity and authorship of

the Dasam Granth is very much in question and although it may be held in

reverence neither you nor I have the 'right' to afford it Guru status the

one that could decided in his superior knowledge and wisdom not to.

"Neo-SIkhs (SGPC and AKJ) deny the Guruship of Dasam Granth

and Sarabloh Granth, their Sikhi is therefore incomplete for they have

adopted Western notions of scriptural understanding."

Again another title 'Neo-Sikhs' how ridiculous it is to give such a title to

people who do not fit into the scope of your own reasoning there is nothing

new about Sikhs who follow the instructions of their Guru.

"The fact remains that

the Bible itself for example is made of several books of different nature

and genres."

The Bible as an example or as a comparative is wholly incompatible with the

Guru Granth Sahib they do not share a common conception or purpose.

"The same thing with the Guru Granth Sahib except that it

manifests itself in three different forms to avoid mental idolatry i.e.

reducing the Divine to one single concept."

What a strange notion that the Guru Granth Sahib is reductive in any way to

the contemplation of the divine! The simplest way to put this assertion that

the Guru Granth Sahib is in some way one dimensional in its rightful place

i.e.. the dustbin is to look at the fact's.

Guru Granth Sahib Jee is composed of 1430 pages, the presentation is in 31

Ragas viz Sri Rag, Majh, gauri, Asa, Gujri, Devgandhari, Bihagra, Vadhans,

Sorath, Dhansari, Jaitsari, Todi, Bairagi, Tilang, Suhi, Bilawal, Gaund,

Ramkali, Ntanarain,

Mail Gaura,

Maru,Tukhari,Kedara,Bhairo,Basant,Sarang,Malhar,Kanra,Kalyan,Tukhari,Kedara,

Bhairo,Basant,Sarang,Malhar,Kanra,Kalyan,

Parbhati and jaijwanti.

Bani of six Gurus - Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Angad Dev Ji, Guru Amar Das ji,

Guru Ram Dass ji, Guru Arjun Dev ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji,

Along with fifteen Bhakats (saints) namely Jai Dev, Farid, Trilochan,

Namdev, Sadhna, Beni, Ramanand, Kabir, Ravidas, Peepa, Soor das,Sain,

Dhanna, Bhikan and Parmanand,

Four disciples of the Gurus namely Bhai Mardana, Baba Sunder ji, Rai Balwand

and Satta.

Further inclusions by eleven Bhatts (bards) Kal Sahar, Jalap, Keerat,

Bhikha, Salh, Bhalh, Nalh, Balh, Gyand, Mathura and Haribans.

Therefore it is hardly blinkered or one dimensional in its contemplation of the divine!! It is in fact multi-facetted and

more than allows for the personal experience between the Sikh and Akaal. It

is a unique work and gives a universal message of spirituality that has

everlasting value. "The picture of the Guru is the Gurbani" (Bhai Gurdas Var

24, pauri 11) Guru Amar Das Jee said "The Gurbani is God himself and it is

through it that man has obtained oneness with the Almighty " (SGGS 19)

"The clearest example illustrating

the Guruship of the three Granths is Shri Abchalnagar Sri Takht Hasur Sahib

where the birs of Adi Guru Granth and Dasam Guru Granth are shown next to

each other. Hazur Sahib has the oldest and purest maryada because of its

remoteness i.e. it was nor affected very much by the Protestantisation of

Sikhi during the British Raj by the Singh Sabha and Akali movements."

I would like to ask the writer whether he has visited Sri Hazur Sahib? If he

has he will know that the presentation of the two Sri Granths that he has

mentioned along with Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not the only 'custom' that is

followed there that is 'unusual' some practices like the Jot Pooja would

look more in place at a Mandir than a Gurudwara. This is not a criticism in

itself but it is rather an example, the writer talks of old maryada and how

because of the remoteness of the Deccan this contributed to its

preservation. Well there was a time when hindu idols were erected within

many Gurudwara I do not beleive the demise of this practice to be a bad

thing. Sri Hazur Sahib is outside of the control of the SGPC who with all

its many faults in today's estimation has done a great deal of good for the

Sikh panth. It is not in the too distant past that some gurudwara were out

of bounds to lone females for fear of molestation or rape the SGPC was

instrumental in bringing these Gurudwara out of the control of unscrupulous

men whose only motivation was greed.

The writer's criticism extends to include the Singh Sabha and Akali

movement's either the reader has not looked into the history of these

movements or his criticism is motivated by other factors. The Singh Sabha

movements sacrifices and duties to the Sikh panth are immense this post is

not intended to discuss these in detail but the information is freely

available to those who wish to know more.

"It has therefore conserved all the age old authentic customs and ceremonies

such as

the display of the Guru Granth in its three forms, shahidi degh and jhatka.

Its maryada is stricter and its nitnem is the purest of all. All the other

SGPC maryadas are nor older than 80 years and man made. Sorry to dissapoint

some people but we can't keep on living in lies.

love to all"

In closing any denigration of Sri Guru Granth Sahib either in questioning

its Guruship or incorrectly claiming it's shortcomings either by claiming it

is incomplete or needs supplementation is apostasy plain and simple whether

the designs of the writer are based in naivety, ignorance or malice.

Understandably if this were applied to a work of literature than the

accusation of censure would not be misplaced but we are not talking of a

literary work to the Sikhs Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is literally the word

of God as revealed through those humans that had a greater connection with

Akaal than the likes of you and me.

Both the Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth deserve our reverence but CANNOT be

afforded Guruship as a example to the writer I have a English translation of

Sri Dasam Granth as published by and with approval of the Gurudwara Board of

Sri Hazur Abchalnagar Sahib in the introuduction the writers themselves do

not claim authorship of the Dasam Granth in its entirety to Guru Gobind

Singh Jee, bear in mind that this Gurudwara by your own admission is one of

the Dasam Granths highest advocates.

There seems to be much more talk of various granths recently whether it be

in the guise of (IMO) pseudo Nihangs talking of there adherence to 'Sanatan'

Sikhi or Radha Soamis who beleive that Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee cannot be

understand fully without the mediation of a 'human guru'.

This is not a new phenomenon Nanak Pathis as a example would by common

defintion, regard themselves as the most Sanatan of Sikhs for there

affiliation ended with Guru Nanak Dev Jee and there were at a time 'Dhir

Malleeay' who were followers of Dhir Mal who contested the Guruship Of Guru

Teg Bahadur Jee and further were once 'Ram Raeeay' followers of Ram Rai a

collateral of Guru Gobind Singh that again contested Guruship and of course

many more who have been forgotten within the mists of time.

It is a common trait within the evolution of all the worlds major faiths but there is

something uncommon about the Sikh experience at this time various 'groups'

(you know who you are) seem intent on misleading sections of Sikhs by

agonising over the current state of Sikhism, whether it has been subverted by

the SGPC or the Singh Sabha movement or the most popular red herring used by

right wing indian groups (amongst others) the British Raj.

These are no more or less devisive than the various 'dera-wale' in that

they serve the same purpose, to loosen the cohesiveness of Sikh society and

thus remove its common belief structure i.e.. Guru Granth, Guru Panth.

Sikhism is the most clearly defined of the major worlds religions, its relative

'youth' means we can rely largely on empirical evidence both in terms of

scripture and history it is the only religion of these that can claim its ( to use a western

description) ' Holy Book' is written first hand by it's 'prophets' but yet

we still find those who choose to question it at every turn.

"Sorry to dissapoint

some people but we can't keep on living in lies."

As long as there are those whose vested interests are at conflict with the

notion of a cohesive, aware and empowered Sikh identity we will continue to

hear people who claim our belief's to be lies.

Gur Fateh

[sukhsingh]

nice post sukhbir 8)

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Sukhbir,

I am actually not even trying to convince you my friend! You want to stick to SGPC SIkhism: that's fine. But then stop talking about Dasam Granth because it's out of reach for you both emotionally and intellectually. YOu have chosen blindness instead of aqal. That's fine. A lot of people seem to be happy like that. But if you want to talk about Dasam Guru Granth Sahib then learn Sanskrit and Braj and maybe we could start the conversation again in four years time.

love

[Guest Javanmard]

Nihangs and Nirmale have nothing to do with RSS, Radha Soami, AKJ and other cults of that kind. Nihangs, NIrmale and Sevapanthis are the very orthodoxy of Sikhism. You would not even be a SIkh if it wasn't for the selfless dedication of all those generations of scholars and knights. Stop assimilating the Puratan sampradavan with jathas, sects, cults or Hindu political organisations. Regarding Hazur Sahib, my friend I am fully and totally aware of the practices of the Takht which are FULLY ORTHODOX, DISTINCTIVE, NON-HINDU and FULLY ENDORSED BY SIKH TRADITION AND HISTORY. The English translation of Dasam Granth is not complete and Dr Jodh Singh does not represent Hazur Sahib though I respect him as a scholar.

In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh reforme the Panth and instituted the Akali Khalsa Panth of which Nihang and Nirmale are the protective branches. Nihangs protect the Panth with shastars, Nirmale with shaastars.

In the early 1920s the SGPC auto-declared itself as the Panth and modified Sikhi according to Victorian and Protestant ideology.

HOW CAN THEY BE THE PANTH???

The Truth will reappear in its splendour, the ignorant fools will perish and the Khalsa Panth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, Bar do Alam Shah, Badshah Darvesh, will triumph!!!!!

Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllll

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Dear Sukhbir,

I am actually not even trying to convince you my friend!

No I didn't think you would try my 'friend' It would be far easier to tell me im wrong because..... you say I am?...

You want to stick

to SGPC SIkhism: that's fine.

No, just Sikhism, not Sanatan not SGPC, not neo nor any other for that matter, Sikhism needs no further title it is incredibly simple to qualify, GURU GRANTH/ GURU PANTH as stipulated by Dasam Patsha Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

But then stop talking about Dasam Granth

because it's out of reach for you both emotionally and intellectually

.

You know this idea of 'sacred' or elusive knowledge that is within the auspices of a select few is exactly the type of wrong that Sikhi set out to right and it did. It is no different than the Brahmin claiming intellectual inferiority as the reasoning for denying the Vedas to the Shudra. Stop talking you say, well if you continue to make illegitimate claims I will continue exposing them.

YOu have chosen blindness instead of aqal. That's fine. A lot of people seem to

be happy like that.

If your enlightenment leads you to make sweeping judgements about others and their relationship with Akaal then its not the sort of enlightenment that I want as Guru Nanak Dev ji wrote "Je Ko akhai bol vigar Ta likhai sir gavara gavar" (If some prater claims that he can describe god then declare him to be the greatest fool of all fools)

Remember Sikhi criticised those who unnecessarily complicated the peoples path to akaal in pursuance of their own agenda and it will always continue to do so.

But if you want to talk about Dasam Guru Granth Sahib

then learn Sanskrit and Braj and maybe we could start the conversation again

in four years time.

If you had read my post you would have seen that I have read and do own a English translation of Sri Dasam Granth a translation produced by and with the authority of the Gurudwara board of Sri Hazur Sahib the very authority that you yourself cite in your post as having "the oldest and purest maryada" as much as you may wish to mystify the contents of the Granth or claim it is beyond comprehension, it is not. The translation is available to all right now so you see there's no need to wait four years.

Manu was able to monopolise the language and keep the 'sacred' knowledge within his own caste so should ever anyone question the wisdom or content of the text they would be told that not being Brahmin " its out of reach for you both emotionally and intellectually" or perhaps " be re-born a Brahmin and learn Sanskrit and maybe we could start the conversation again" Sound familiar?

Guru Angad Dev ji when talking of language and its use by some to restrict knowledge of the divine said of Sanskrit that it is like water in a remote well, you must know where it is and have the means of extracting it by contrast Gurmukhi is like the rain it falls on all.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[Guest Javanmard]

I never talked about your relationship with Akaal but your understanding of Dasam Guru Granth Sahib, this is therefore just a scholarly matter and has nothing to do with spirituality. In spiritual matters I am just a beggar at the door of Akaal Purakh just like all of us. But at this worldly level, as a scholar I have to warn you against hasty approaches to a text like the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. I am just saying that it takes time, patience and years of knowledge to approach any of our Gurus' banis.

Yes the translation has been published with the agya of Hazur Sahib but that does not mean that it reflects the maryada or beliefs of Takhat Hazur Sahib. I know Dr Jodh Singh presonaly and I can tell you that though he has a lot of respect for the Takhat and the Dasam Granth, he still has some problems with certain parts of the Dasam Granth. Not so much that he does not believe them to be bani but he rather prefered to avoid discomfortable grievance. Times are not easy for Sikh scholars because of the amount of ignorance and blind faith in the SGPC's authority. I say 'SGPC Sikhi' because I consider their Sikhi to be adulterated. They can't show parampara. Regarding the elitist accusation well I am sorry but when Guru Gobind SIngh Ji Maharaj asked for the heads of the panj pyare he was selecting the purest in his community. The Khalsa is a spiritual elite and Sikhi was born in a highly refined elite kshatriya culture. But the miracle of Maharaj's grace is that he wanted that elite culture to be accessible to everyone without caste distinction.

You can learn Sanskrit in any good university or from the Nirmale so please spare us your "Brahmins keep their knwoledge for themselves". Most Brahmins I know are so ignorant and stupid it's so easy to beat them!!!

But it seems that nowadays a lot people have brought our Gurus to their own pendoo level.

[Guest Javanmard]

" its out of reach for you both emotionally and intellectually" or perhaps " be re-born a Brahmin and learn Sanskrit and maybe we could start the conversation again" Sound familiar?

Hahaha My friend, do you need to be a Brahmin to learn Sanskrit????!?!?!?!?!

Most Nirmale are Jatts and make fun of Brahmins by defeating them in debates!!!! Maybe you should learn more about the language before using the usual "Sanskrit=anti-Sikhi". If it was so anti-Sikhi why would Guru Gobind SIngh have learnt it before Panjabi.

hahahaha

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Nihangs and Nirmale have nothing to do with RSS, Radha Soami, AKJ and other cults of that kind. Nihangs, NIrmale and Sevapanthis are the very orthodoxy of Sikhism.

Firstly I never made the accusation, you refer to so kindly deal with the facts, secondly an orthodox Sikh is one who is a practising Amritdhari preserves the five K's and believes the Guru Granth Sahib to be his only Guru and means of realising the one eternal formless God. Very simple concept I know and that's what frustrates those who would attempt to employ lies and myths to subvert it.

You would not even be a SIkh if it wasn't for the selfless dedication of all those generations of scholars and knights. Stop assimilating the Puratan sampradavan with jathas, sects, cults or Hindu political organisations.

I am a Sikh by the grace of the lord, I never assimilated any of the aforementioned with the groups you talk of, again it seems it is more convenient to pose your own questions before answering them.

Regarding Hazur Sahib, my friend I am fully and totally aware of the practices of the Takht which are FULLY ORTHODOX, DISTINCTIVE, NON-HINDU and FULLY ENDORSED BY SIKH TRADITION AND HISTORY.

My question was have you been there? As for them being fully endorsed, which body's endorsement are you referring to..your own?

The English translation of Dasam Granth is not complete and Dr Jodh Singh does not represent Hazur Sahib though I respect him as a scholar.

Whether complete or not Dr Jodh Singh does not claim authorship of the Granth to Guru Gobind Singh Jee in its entirety and the translation was published with the express approval of Sri Hazur Sahib, would they put there name to and finance a publication if they did not endorse it's contents?

In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh reforme the Panth and instituted the Akali Khalsa Panth of which Nihang and Nirmale are the protective branches. Nihangs protect the Panth with shastars, Nirmale with shaastars.

NO. In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa a brotherhood equal in every respect where a man would be a scholar, warrior, householder etc.. a saint soldier. What you talk of is no different to the division of man under hinduism where one man is a warrior and another a priest. What Guruji did was break those divisions to allow man to open his mind to his full potential he did not need to restrict himself to one label, role, vocation through this empowerment he would break the centuries old brahmin shackles of Khatri, Brahmin, Shudra etc.

In the early 1920s the SGPC auto-declared itself as the Panth and modified Sikhi according to Victorian and Protestant ideology.

HOW CAN THEY BE THE PANTH???

What a ridiculous statement again as before you are either ignorant of the history of the organisation and how and why it came into being or as is more likely you have your own motivations for making such a statement. Ask yourself this If any organisation sprouted up today and declared itself as the panth do you think it would receive widespread support? Then why do you think the SGPC did ? Simple because it espoused the almost unanimous beliefs and aspirations of the Sikh nation. The SGPC did not create the panth rather the opposite, the panth as created by Guru Gobind Singh Jee created the SGPC as a collective voice for the panth.

The Truth will reappear in its splendour, the ignorant fools will perish and the Khalsa Panth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, Bar do Alam Shah, Badshah Darvesh, will triumph!!!!!

Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllll

The truth is all around us it never dissapeared in order to reappear! But there are those who do not wish us to see, they revise history in order to give their lies credence, they bring disunity where there should be solidarity, they question that which is unquestionable and all of this under the guise of faith.

Our Gurus have given us the tools and the knowledge and in your hearts you know what is right did Guru Gobind Singh Jee create a brotherhood that encapsulated the ideal man, a saint soldier, a man for all seasons unrestricted in his abilities or did he create various groups where one would be a warrior another a scholar another a priest, bound to their role for life?

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Hahaha My friend, do you need to be a Brahmin to learn Sanskrit????!?!?!?!?!

I do not know what you find so amusing but your inability to comprehend posts is slightly amusing to me. Anyway yes there was a period when in order to learn Sanskrit you would need to be a Brahmin, do you dispute this?

Manu "The Shudra is forbidden to study, the Vedas, the Shastra and scriptures" (Chapter X/127-128)

"It is reprehensible for a Brahmin to study, the Vedas before a Shudra" (Chapter IV/99)

Maybe you should learn more about the language before using the usual "Sanskrit=anti-Sikhi".

I never said the language was anti-Sikh did I? The point clearly, or should I say clearly to most people with a modicum of sense, was that Sanskrit was not a very inclusive language given that for many centuries knowledge of it was restricted.

Maybe you should acquire some humility before embarrassing yourself and other's with your ignorance, it is not much of a debate when you accuse me of making statements that don't exist.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[Guest Javanmard]

My dear friend you don't know in what kind of situation you have put yourself!!!! Hihihihihihihihi!!!!

1. You quote Manu, well the Manusmriti only became really important during the British raj as a law book. it a descriptive law book not a prescriptive one (you might want to follow some classes on Classical Indian Law)

2. It is true that Brahmins monoplised Sanskrit and that's why Guru Gobind SIngh created the Nirmale to humiliate the arrogant Brahmins

3.

Maybe you should acquire some humility before embarrassing yourself and other's with your ignorance, it is not much of a debate when you accuse me of making statements that don't exist.

It is not that I am arrogant it's rather you who are ignorant.

as the Prophet (PBUH) said in a hadith

the cripple is always jealous of the dancer!

Oh please don't accuse me now of being a Muslim in disguise that would be too funny.

still love you though, you're cute when you're angry

roooaaaarr roooaaarr

[Guest Javanmard]

Gurfateh

one of the oral traditions goes indded like that. But I have to state that it is really important to do jhatka properly with the recitation of Chandi di Var, purifications. etc... The goat who is being sacrificed will be reborn as a Nihang or at least a human being. Jhatka also represents the killing of lower animalistic ego and is also a provocation against the current brahmanical values that were around Guru Gobind SInggh's times. Also notice that Guru Gobind SIngh as a messianic figure abolishes halal just like the 12 Imam Mahdi is supposed to do at the end of times according to Shia tradition.

[Guest Javanmard]

By the way some Nirmale do eat meat, specially who are Nihangs at the same time, it's rare but it happens!

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

My dear friend you don't know in what kind of situation you have put yourself!!!! Hihihihihihihihi!!!!

It seem's to me that I am in exactly the same situation that I was when I replied to your assertion that the Guru Granth Sahib is made up of three separate Granths. That situation being that your wrong and what you have stated is in fact a lie.

1. You quote Manu, well the Manusmriti only became really important during the British raj as a law book. it a descriptive law book not a prescriptive one (you might want to follow some classes on Classical Indian Law)

It is of little importance as to when it became important and surprise,surprise it is yet again the British raj that is to blame, how original !!

Whether descriptive or prescriptive is of even less importance because it has no bearing on the main issue that being that Sanskrit and knowledge of it was restricted on a caste basis, something which you accept in your next statement.

2. It is true that Brahmins monoplised Sanskrit and that's why Guru Gobind SIngh created the Nirmale to humiliate the arrogant Brahmins

Humiliating other's is for the weak for those who feel thay are in some way elevated by the degradation of another, that is not Guruji's way the problem is you apply your manmukh instincts and measures to those who are beyond such things. That is why you amongst others think you are better positioned that Guruji himself to assert that his declaration that Guru Granth Sahib jee alone is our Guru was wrong and it is you who are correct to appoint a trinity of granths as Guru.

3. Quote:

Maybe you should acquire some humility before embarrassing yourself and other's with your ignorance, it is not much of a debate when you accuse me of making statements that don't exist.

It is not that I am arrogant it's rather you who are ignorant.

My word how that retort must have strained the old grey matter, how very disappointing, surely you could do better?

as the Prophet (PBUH) said in a hadith

the cripple is always jealous of the dancer!

Your high opinion of yourself is misplaced by a great degree, conceit is indeed a blight to the soul, it should not be for the individual to praise oneself it should come from others but I suppose in your case the absence of such means you have to blow your own trumpet.

Oh please don't accuse me now of being a Muslim in disguise that would be too funny.

still love you though, you're cute when you're angry

I never accused you of being a Hindu or anything else for that matter, yet again we find yourself answering questions that only you have posed besides why should I accuse you of being a Muslim I have a lot of Muslim friends and I would not wish to offend them.

You are very presumptuous I feel no anger at this time I had a point to make and I made it. You felt it necessary to divert the topic by inventing accusations and that's fine I have gauged the level of your debate and am thus reacting accordingly, anger? No your simply a mild distraction from the office, I never thought you would realistically defend your assertion that Guru Granth Sahib is anything other than what it is our complete Guru, the reason why you didn't? Simple..... you couldn't, for how can one question that which is beyond question? To accept what you say I would have to accept your opinion above that of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and to be frank, based on your post's I would be loathe to accept your opinion above that of my niece....and she's 8 next week.

roooaaaarr roooaaarr

Even the Jackal can pretend to be the lion, until of course the lion turns up.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Sukhbir,

I am glad you are returning. I was missing your warm presence. Well makes you believe in the first place that only Adi Granth Sahib is Guru Granth Sahib. Books you've read let me guess... by SGPC or SIngh Sabhia authors. Now my friend if you had any knowldge of Indian literature, metric, Sanskrit and Braj you would notice that there is a complete internal unity in the Dasam Granth from the point of view of style themes and heuristics. The same recurrant type meters are used in the manner in all the banis of Dasam Granth. Now if Charitropakhyan is not Bani of Guru Gobind SIngh does that mean that Chaupai Sahib is not bani? Be careful with your answer. The first mentions of the Khalsa and the 5K are in Sarabloh Granth. Question: Why would you reject the very authorities that reinforce our SIkh identity? Have you read Charitropakhyan in the original? Where have you learnt Sanskrit and Braj?

bye bye

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Since you seem to have decided to progress with some maturity and abandon your accusations we can move forward. You have asked a number of questions although you have answered none of mine. You ask me why I consider my Guru to be my Guru, simple because guruship was bestowed to the Guru by the Guru unless of course you now wish to ask me why I consider Guru Gobind Singh Jee to be Guru, the answer is exactly the same for it was bestowed to him by the Guru and so on and so forth from Guru Nanak Dev Ji forward.

There is almost uniformely agreement that Dasam granth in its entirety cannot be attributable To Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Of course there is bani within Dasam granth but this does not mean A) it is entirely bani it is accorded Guru status.

Equally if there were a composition or work's by one of the Bhakats that contained within it verses which are also found in Guru Granth Sahib Jee It would not be accorded Guru Status. Amrit Bani as an example contains Shabads from Guru Granth Sahib but it is not Guru Amrit Bani is it?

I thought I would give you food for thought with the article below it is comprehensive and requires you to be thoghtful and contemplative, I do not yet know whether you have the capacity or inclination. I still beleive your intentions to be suspect and some of your earlier post regarding ritual slaughter and re-incarnation beggars belief it would be entirely at home coming from the mouth of a soothsayer.

Bear in mind the article below will make very large holes in your specious arguement so i do not excpect it to be well received by you but you know what they say if you build your home on sand its going to come tumbling down one day and besides your opinion is just that..YOURS, ill let the readers make up their own mind.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

GURU GRANTH/ GURU PANTH

Dasam Granth - Its History

by Daljeet Singh

INTRODUCTION

Since the time the writings or pothis, to be later compiled and called the granth of the Tenth Master, were originally found, there has been a controversy about their authorship, authenticity and historicity. Very few persons have made a serious study about their genuineness. The issue is important, and writers like O'Connell and others have often made accusations like : "A conspicuous deficiency already mentioned is the general reluctance to grapple effectively with the Dasam Granth. The period whence it comes is absolutely crucial, and until it is adequately treated, we shall continue to grope in our efforts to trace the course of Sikh history or development of Sikh tradition." It is, therefore, necessary to assess the veracity of facts, and to indicate the probabilities of the issue, so that it is understood in its right academic perspective.

HISTORY - 18TH CENTURY CHHIBBER'S STORY

Most of the evidence about the present work called the 'Dasam Granth' is negative. The earliest reference about some writings by the Tenth Master is by Chhibber in his Bansavalinama. Contemporary historians of the period of Guru Gobind Singh like Sainapat, Bhai Nandlal, Chaupa Singh, Sewadas, Koer Singh or Bhai Mani Singh, make no mention of the Dasam Granth or any such writing in the period. This negative evidence is quite significant and strong.

For, had there been any compilation like the Dasam Granth, these contemporary chroniclers could never have failed to mention it. The first reference to some writings by the Tenth Guru is in Chhibber's Bansavalinama written 71 years after the Guru's demise. This volume, as assessed by scholars like Jaggi, Kohli and others, has not been found to be very reliable as to its dates and other particulars. Besides, the author himself says that he is no chronicler, but has based the writing merely on hearsay, and just as a matter of his hobby : "I state what I had heard and what I could recollect." "This hearsay I record just by way of my hobby (shauk)."[1] Thus, Chhibber himself discounts the historical accuracy of his statements, for, he claims to belong only to the third generation of a Brahmin family whose head was a contemporary of the Tenth Master.

Further, two important points have also to be kept in view. First, most Brahmin writers always have a strong, natural and understandable bias to give a Brahminical colour to the Sikh religion and its history, even though all the Sikh Gurus were emphatic to proclaim the independence of their system and the Panth. The Fifth Master wrote :

"I keep not the Hindu fast, nor do I observe Muslim month of fast;

I serve only Him, who emancipates all; He is my Gosain;

He is my Allah; I have found release from the Hindus as from the Turks;

I visit not the pilgrim places of Hindus, nor go to Kaaba for Haj;

I serve only God, I serve not any other;

I worship not the Hindu way, nor say the Muslim prayers;

I bow to the one God within my heart;

I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim;

For, my body and life belong to Him, Allah and Ram."[2]

Second, Guru Gobind Singh had put the final seal on this complete separateness, by the creation of the Khalsa, the Nash Doctrine (Dharam Nash, Bharam Nash, Karam Nash, Sharam Nash and Janam Nash), and the declaration of Guru Granth Sahib as the sole Ideological Guide and Living Guru of the Sikhs. Yet, these writings have shown a subtle tendency to reshape and reframe Sikh events, so that these are accepted by the gullible as a part of the Brahminical tradition.

Following is what Chhibber records : "The Guru got written a Granth (book) called 'Samundar Sagar.' Later he got it thrown in a river." "Later still he composed other writings." "But, during the battles at Anandpur, the leaves of these writings or packets (sanchian) were scattered to the wind and lost."[3] Chhibber is vague about the contents or nature of these writings. Once he calls it 'Samundar Sagar', at another time 'Avtar Leela.' There is no reference at all to 'Dasam Granth', 'Bachittar Natak', 'Chandi Charitar', 'Chandi di Var', 'Charitropakhyan' or 'Chaubis Avtar', as these are called now.

It is clear that it was peace time when the Guru had thrown the Samundar Sagar Granth in the river. Could it ever happen that he would destroy Gurbani, his own or that of earlier Gurus, or anything of value to Sikhs ? Gurbani has always been considered sacred, and been venerated more than even the Guru. Evidently, the writings were such as could conveniently be discarded. The argument applies doubly to the packets that were never completed or compiled, and were allowed to be scattered.

Thus, Chhibber's story adds nothing to our knowledge about the Dasam Granth writings, their compilation or loss. Therefore, the negative evidence of all contemporary chroniclers, coupled with the evidence of Chhibber's story, shows that till the end of the 18th century, there was nothing known about any granth of the Tenth Guru, or any writings now regarded as its chapters or contents. In fact, the only granth or compilation mentioned in the literature is 'Vidya Sagar' or 'Samundar Sagar Granth', the contents of which have no relation to the present Dasam Granth.

CHHIBBER'S STORY CONTRADICTED

Chhibber alleges three facts. First, that the Tenth Master initially created a granth called Samundar Sagar, and had it thrown into a river. Later, some papers (sanchis) were prepared, but these, too, were scattered to the wind and lost in the time of battles. Second, he records that in 1725 A.D. Bhai Mani Singh compiled a granth combining the bani of Aad Granth and the writings that subsequently came to be called Dasam Granth.[4] For doing this mix-up, and thereby violating the prescribed sequence or method of writing gurbani, a poor Sikh, when he saw the combined granth, cursed Bhai Sahib saying that just as he had disjointed the gurbani and mixed it up, he would also be cut to pieces.[5] Chhibber never writes chronologically. For example, in a still later couplet No. 389, he writes that in 1698 A.D. Guru Gobind Singh rejected the request of the Sikhs to combine the Aad Granth with his own writings.[6] It is very significant that the entire book of Chhibber is packed with his use and narration of Brahminical practices, and stories of demons, fairies, Hom, mantras, curses, etc., even though he knows that these are opposed to the doctrines in Guru Granth Sahib. In short, his Brahminical faith and prejudices are glaringly evident.

In addition, the above version of Chhibber, we find, is contradicted both by Gian Singh and Sarup Das Bhalla on all the essential points concerning Dasam Granth writings. Gian Singh never mentions that Samundar Sagar Granth or sanchis of Avtar Leela stories were prepared, thrown or lost. He also contradicts Chhibber that Sikhs at any time made a request to the Guru to combine his bani with the Aad Granth. All he states is that once Sikhs requested the Guru to compile his own bani, but he categorically declined to do so, saying that such a request should never be made again.[7] He also contradicts Chhibber's version that Bhai Mani Singh ever combined the two, and later suffered a 'curse' from a poor Sikh for doing so. He only states that in response to a suggestion by some Sikhs, he wrote gurbani in separate words for the purpose of explaining its meaning (teeka), and that the sangat disapproved of it, saying that he would suffer for it. But the sangat conceded that his faith in the Guru will remain unshaken. This satisfied Bhai Sahib.[8] However, he indicates that on the request of Sikhs, he collected the bani of Guru Gobind Singh.[9]

Mehma Parkash of Sarup Das Bhalla, a late 18th century or an early 19th century production, materially gives the same impression as does Gian Singh. Bhalla, a non-Brahmin, contradics all the three assertions of Chhibber, namely, the preparation or loss of any granth like Samundar Sagar or sanchis of other writings, the request of Sikhs to the Guru to add his bani to the Aad Granth, or any combined compilation by Bhai Mani Singh, and the curse by a poor Sikh. On the other hand, Bhalla gives the story that the Guru got prepared a granth, since lost, called Vidya Sagar, which constituted translations of Sanskrit literature.[10] He does not say that the Sikhs ever requested the Guru to include his bani in the Aad Granth, nor that Bhai Sahib ever produced any such compilation.

These being the realities, there is little doubt that Chhibber's version is not only unworthy of reliance, but is clearly the result of a prejudiced twist to facts as they really were. For, it is unthinkable that Bhai Sahib would ever combine the two, as alleged by Chhibber and as now sought to be supported by the presence of the Delhi and Sangrur birs, when he knew full well that the Guru had clearly frowned upon such an idea. Had Bhai Sahib prepared any bir, it would be the authentic version, and there could never have been the possibility of such widely variant versions of the granth, as actually exist now. For, every bir would have been a copy of it. Nor is there any reason for the complete disappearance of it. Because, we find, that the Delhi bir, which has no history, is certainly not Bhai Sahib's production.

For the reasons and facts given above there is little doubt that the story of Chhibber stands belied, and that the version that Bhai Mani Singh compiled the Dasam Granth, is a distortion that has no historical, ideological or factual basis or possibility.

19TH CENTURY

The existence of Dasam Granth is mentioned for the first time in mid-nineteenth century by Bhai Santokh Singh, and later by Giani Gian Singh and others. Later, Bhai Kahn Singh and others repeat the story of Bhai Santokh Singh, suggesting that the bir of Dasam Granth was compiled by Bhai Mani Singh. It is also stated that there were many objections to the compilation in one volume of the various writings that had earlier existed separately. But, the final decision to do so or not, rested on the chance factor of the success or otherwise of the mission of Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh against Massa Ranghar. The reality, however, is that none of these writers have given any shred of evidence to support the story of its compilation. In the absence of any authentic historical evidence, it is simply impossible to attribute the present collection, or any part of it, to Bhai Sahib. It is equally impossible to believe that if a respected contemporary of the Guru like Bhai Sahib had really compiled the granth, or any part of it, there could ever have been a controversy about it among the Sikhs so as to require them to resort to the chance decision depending on the success of Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh. Bhai Mani Singh's position being pre-eminent as a trusted scribe and devout Sikh of the Guru, could any Sikh or Panth disregard or doubt his testimony about the Dasam Granth, if it had been there ? There is, thus, little doubt that the story of Dasam Granth's compilation by Bhai Sahib has no historical basis. In fact, it is a motivated fabrication to give credence to the story of Dasam Granth compilation.

LETTER BY BHAI MANI SINGH

The supportive story of a letter written by Bhai Sahib, about the collection of Charitropakhyan, to Mataji at Delhi is another fabrication. Dr Jaggi has examined in detail the veracity of this letter and found it to be unreliable. The method of writing separate words, as in this letter, was not at all in vogue in the time of Bhai Sahib. Nor is the practice visible in the contemporary manuscripts. The words or language used also relates to a later period. Besides, the use of bindi, other features, matras and shape of letters are comparatively modern. Very probably the letter is written by a metallic nib which was not available in those times. The words used are rather unsophisticated and could not have been from a learned gurmukh like Bhai Sahib. It is also strange that the letter mentions 303 charitars or stories, whereas everywhere else the number is 404.[11] Nor has the letter been forthcoming from a natural custody. It was never heard of in the 18th or 19th centuries, and its appearance is only a mid 20th century phenomenon. It is strange that Dr Ashta who accepts it, has done so virtually without any examination of it. Charitropakhyan is a writing which no Sikh, granthi, or scholar has been willing to read or send to his mother, sister or daughter. No one has so far read it out in the open sangat. It is, indeed, unlikely that a gurmukh like Bhai Sahib would send its manuscript to venerated Mataji. It is, thus, historically baseless to connect Bhai Sahib or Mataji in any manner with the collection or compilation of Dasam Granth or any part of it.

The above rationale makes it plain that there is no evidence whatsoever of the existence of Dasam Granth or any part of it in the 18th or even the 19th century. All we now know is the later appearance of some manuscripts or birs of the Dasam Granth. Four of them are regarded as the oldest. We shall consider their reliability or authenticity.

BHAI MANI SINGH BIR

Raja Gulab Singh of Delhi purchased a bir in 1944-45, which is known as the Bhai Mani Singh Bir. Nothing historically verifiable is known about it, except a story given by him that a soldier of Ranjit Singh found or looted it during an attack on Multan in 1818 A.D. The soldier then shifted to and settled at Hyderabad. How the bir got to Multan and remained unknown for 125 years, is quite enigmatic and unexplained. External evidence about its history is completely missing. The bir is far from being a speaking manuscript. For, the authorship is unknown, as also the place or time of its compilation. In a corner of a page there is a slanting postscript, recording 1713 A.D. as the date of it. Jaggi's examination and its photocopy clearly show it to be a suspicious interpolation. The ink and writing of this entry are different from those of the original bir. The handwriting and shape of letters are also comparatively crude. Its introduction in slanting lines in a corner proves its belated character.[12] In fact, it is a thoughtless fabrication of the date. For, the story of Bhai Sahib's collection of its parts and the Panthic decision to have them in one volume following Massa Ranghar's death, relate to a time about two decades later.

All the internal evidence of the bir is against its authenticity. Jaggi finds that the writer of the bir does not seem to be a good scribe or to have a good knowledge of the Gurmukhi script or the Punjabi language.[13] Therefore, it is not at all possible to connect this bir with Bhai Sahib. On the other hand, the scribe is a Hindi-knowing person who is distinctly interested in distorting the Sikh doctrines and mixing up Sikh literature with Puranic literature. And this is, exactly what he has done. The bir comprises both the bani of the Gurus and that of the Dasam Granth. Gurbani has not been recorded as in Guru Granth Sahib, i.e., raag-wise. It is done Guru-wise and Bhagat Bani is mostly at the end of the combined volume. It shows conclusively that the scribe is a non-Sikh who, without any knowledge of the prescribed method of writing Gurbani, is out to do the heretical distortion of mixing-up dhur ki bani with Puranic myths about worship of devis and avtars. For, no Sikh, and much less a gurmukh like Bhai Sahib, could ever plan to combine the two and flout the sacred sequence of Gurbani (written raag-wise) laid down by the Gurus. The shape of writing and its language suggest that the distortion was done long after the demise of Bhai Sahib, when the Sikh world was engaged in its life and death struggle with the Empire and the invaders.

Thus, the lack of any history of the manuscript for over 200 years, its internal evidence of interpolation, shape of letters and language, together with the heretical change of method in writing Gurbani, and its mix-up with Puranic and avtar-worship literature, conclusively exclude the possibility of the bir being a production of Sikh quarters. On the other hand, the probability is that it is a compilation by those either unconversant with Sikh doctrines, tradition and literature, or those out to confuse the Sikh ideology. In any case, the manuscript has no historical or academic value as an authentic bir.

MOTI BAGH BIR

The bir of Moti Bagh is another manuscript that has no verifiable history. In 1959, one Natha Singh stated that his ancestor, one Hakam Singh had given this bir to Maharaja Mohinder Singh (1862-1876 A.D.), that earlier one Nahar Singh had obtained it from Charat Singh, son of Sukha Singh, and that the former had been obtaining for it a grant from Maharaja Ranjit Singh.[14] But, no part of its history is verifiable, or is otherwise corroborated. Nor is there anything in the internal evidence of the bir to support the story or any part of it. The bir shows that it had been compiled by more than one person. Jaggi opines that the age of the paper and the character of words and writing show that it could not have been compiled earlier than a hundred years after the demise of the Tenth Guru.

SANGRUR BIR

The granthi at gurdwara Deodi Sahib Dewan Khara, Sangrur, says that in 1857 A.D. the bir had been presented to the Raja by a Pathan of Delhi ,when he had gone there in aid of the British. The bir was in two parts, pages 1 to 600 contained Gurbani from Guru Granth Sahib, and pages 601 to 1166 the chapters that form Dasam Granth. The first part stands lost. Its history before 1857 A.D. is unknown.[15] Internal evidence suggests that it is a combined collection of bani from Guru Granth Sahib and the chapters of Dasam Granth. Since the very system of combining dhur ki bani with puranic and avtar and other literature is opposed to the specific tradition laid down by the Gurus, the heretical mix-up has been done, as explained earlier, by non-Sikh elements. For, it is inconceivable that a composition like the Charitropakhyan, which even the SGPC, vide its letter No. 36672 dated 3.8.1972, has declared to be a composition from Hindu mythology and not by the Tenth Master, could have been combined with sacred Gurbani by any Sikh. This fact alone shows conclusively that the Dasam Granth, which contains Charitropakhyan, could never be a compilation of Sikh quarters, much less could it be by the Tenth Guru. The bir, thus, is of no historical or academic value.

PATNA BIR

The Patna Bir has also no historical value. Nothing worthwhile about it was narrated to Jaggi when he examined it there.[16] The writing is simple, except that red ink has also been used. The arguments against the authenticity of its compilation, production, and mix-up of the Tenth Gurus's bani with Charitropakhyan, as noted earlier, also apply to this volume. Jaggi feels that the condition of the paper, shape of letters, writing, etc., suggest that it is a production of the 19th century.

NO BIR IS AUTHENTIC

Dr Jaggi's detailed descriptions of these and other birs shows that in matters of contents, number of hymns and chhands, sequence of topics, list of writings, distribution of writings, or headings, etc., etc., there is no uniformity between any two birs. In fact, some of these contain additional material clearly known to be from non-Sikh sources. The conclusion is inevitable that these birs are odd, assorted and belated compilations or collections of unconnected and disjointed materials, made by individuals from non-Sikh quarters, who were neither conversant with the Sikh literature, nor with the method and sanctity of writing Gurbani. Their only interest was to mix-up Sikh literature with puranic and avtar literature so as to show both of them as parts of a single tradition. For, had the compilers been acquainted with Sikh practices and quarters, there would not have been such a variation in contents, combinations, sequence, number of hymns, as is evidenced by the different birs. Nor are these birs, for the same reasons, copies from one traceable or authentic source. This conclusion is fortified by the facts that not only have these birs virtually no known history, but the earlier ones relate to the period when struggle with the Empire was intense and there was a price on every Sikh head. And, later when peace came, in the late 18th or early 19th century, these writings containing mixed-up literature were quietly introduced and got copied without much scrutiny. Otherwise, how could it be that no bir bears any authentic date or name of a known Sikh scribe of the Guru, of the early Sikh period ? We also find that some of the errors are too gross to be committed by a person conversant with Gurbani. Jaggi has listed many of these errors in chapter six of his book. These errors and their repetition show their non-Sikh origin. These are very significant aspects of the old compilations, and in any serious assessment of their value, the importance of their import and implications cannot be ignored.

Here it is necessary to mention an unverified story that the Tenth Guru had initiated a move to translate into Gurmukhi some ancient literature. It is well-known that in his short life he was faced with colossal tasks, and his accomplishments, as declared by H.R. Gupta, were indeed superhuman in every field of his activities : "His dreams and deeds brought a wonderful change in his own generation in the religious, military and political life of the people. His personality was so fascinating, so bewitching, so dynamic, so momentous and so unforgettable, that we are seized with wonder at the changes which took place in Punjab within one year and half of his death. He was the greatest genius of his age. Whenever we touch that short life, as he died at the age of forty two, we are at once brought into contact with a live wire. He was a meteor that consumed itself to light the world. He was luminous like the sun and had conquered death. He possessed a rare combination of so many excellences, supreme self-denial, marvellous intellect, superhuman willpower, great heart and limitless energy ......"[17] It is quite apparent that whatever translations were done by Brahmins and Sikhs, were lost, and could not be suitably compiled or scrutinized about their utility in his time or even later. In any case, there is no historical evidence to this effect. Very probably it is only the Brahminical quarters who had later the time and interest to compile those translations and combine them with Gurbani. This view, we feel, explains all aspects of the Dasam Granth and what Jaggi considers its numerous inconsistencies and contradictions.

INTERNAL EVIDENCE

I. Historical Contradictions : There are, as detailed by Jaggi, many historical and other incongruities in the Dasam Granth which it would be naive to attribute to the Tenth Guru.[18] We give only two instances :

(i) In the story of Prithoo Raja, the author has shown that the legendary Shakuntala had connection not with Prince Dushyant, but with the mythical Prithoo. According to Bhagwat Puran, Prithoo was an avtar of Vishnu who appeared in Treta Yug. But Shakuntala's story of love with Dushyant in Bhagwat Puran is entirely different.[19] Thus, the writer who has joined Prithoo and Shakuntala, could not be concerned with the purity of Puranic stories. But his only interest appears to be to link the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib with concocted Hindu legends, so that he is shown to be part of the Brahminical lore and legend.

(ii) Similarly, in the story of Raghu Raja, to say that Sanyasis regarded him as Dutt, Yogis as Gorakh Nath, Bairagis as Ramanand, and Muslims as Prophet Mohammad, shows that the interest of the story writer is not to narrate any rational history or myth.[20] He only seeks to represent that the Guru accepted Hindu mythology and tradition, and for the purpose to distort Sikh doctrines and ideas.

By no means can the authorship of such admin cut-and-bull stories be attributed to the lofty personality of the Guru. Obviously, the interest of the authors of these incongruities is quite extraneous to any faithful representation of events, doctrines, ideas, or even myths.

Another fact that seriously affects the historicity of these writings, is quite significant. Normally, the preparation, compilation or reproduction of a granth by a scholar is a great achievement, and the same is kept as a treasure, which the author or his family is always reluctant to part with. But, in the case of these manuscripts or birs not only their history and names or identity of compilers are unknown, but, we also find, that none of the compilers or custodians ever showed any reluctance to part with them. On the other hand, an apparent aim seems to have been that the compilation reaches an important place or a distinguished person, that could confer authenticity to it.

II. Ideological Contradictions : The unity of spirit of all the Ten Gurus is a fundamental of Sikhism, which stands emphasised and recorded in Guru Granth Sahib. The second basic and unalterable concept of Sikhism, as opposed to that of Brahminism, is that God does not incarnate. This concept is an integral element of the creedal hymn Mul Mantra[21] of Guru Nanak in the very beginning of Guru Granth Sahib. This concept is the corner-stone of Sikh theology. So much so, that the Guru says : "May that mouth burn which says that God incarnate."[22] "God alone is the one who is not born of a woman."[23] "God is self-existent, without form and incarnates not."[24] The Gurus clearly deny belief in the theory of incarnation of God. In order to dispel such ideas they state, "The Formless alone, Nanak, is without fear, many are Ramas as the dust of His Feet, many Krishnas. Many are their stories and many are the Vedas."[25] The Gurus write that He created countless Brahmas, Sivas and Vishnus.

The above is the categoric thesis of the Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib, the sole Ideological Guide of the Sikhs. We have to test any idea, doctrine or practice on the touchstone of Gurbani. For, it is unimaginable that any Guru or Sikh could approve of anything incongruous with the creedal statement of Guru Nanak. It is in the above context that we have to examine and test the authenticity of what is in any granth, not specifically authenticated by the Gurus.

DEVI AND AVTAR WORSHIP IN THE DASAM GRANTH

Dr Jaggi has made a detailed examination of the issue. He finds that except for about 70 pages of the Dasam Granth, including Jap Sahib, Swayyas, Akal Ustat (excluding hymns in praise of Durga), Asphotak Chhand and Zaffarnama, the other contents which involve worship of avtars, devis and mahakal are mostly from the Puranic literature. Following are some instances of devi worship. (For details see chapter 9 of Jaggi's book).

(i) Tribhangi Chhands (201-220, In Akal Ustat) are clearly in praise of the devi.

(ii) In Shashtarnama in the beginning there is a whole chapter (27 chhands) in praise of the devi.

(iii) Chandi Charitar I & II, Chaubis Avtar, Rudra Avtar including parts of Charitropakhyan, all relate to the Puranic myths that are in praise of the devi and avtars.

(iv) Similarly, in the above Puranic stories there are numerous hymns in praise of Maha Kal, who is a Tantric or Sakat deity, pages 55, 56, 57, 58, 73, 156, 157, 183, 185, 254, 310, 612, 613, 642, etc.

(v) Worship of devi under the name of Kalika, Chandi, Siva or Durga is found at pages 74, 76, 99, 117, 255, 118, 309, 310, 116, 673, 675, etc., etc.

(vi) Apart from the Var of Durga, there is the entire Puranic story of the devi coming to the rescue of the mythical Indra and fighting battles with demon Maikhasur, involving trillions of soldiers (devi worship chhands and narration of the myth).

(vii) In Chandi Charitar Ukat Bilas the author mentions that he has virtually made the composition from 700 slokas of Markand Purana. He adds that whoever hears or recites the same for any specific boon, the devi would certainly grant it instantaneously (Chandi Charitar, Ukat Bilas - sloka 232).

(viii) In Chandi Charitar II in the sloka 261 the author writes that whoever remembers or worships the devi with devotion, shall attain salvation. Similarly, in the Durga Var the author writes that whoever recites the same, will achieve salvation and not be born again (stanza or pauri - 55).

(ix) Whether it is Rama Avtar, Parasnath Avtar, Krishna Avtar, Brahma Avtar, or the other Puranic stories, these all relate to the worship to the devi and avtars.

(x) Charitropakhyan, too, involves worship of the devi and Kal or Maha Kal (charitra 405, chhands 52, 77, 126 and 132). The very facts that no Sikh is willing to read it in the presence of women or the sangat, and that the S.G.P.C. has called it a Puranic myth and not work of the Tenth Guru, show that it is no longer considered a part of the Dasam Granth.

The above few instances prove that, apart from the about 70 pages or so, the writings in the Dasam Granth positively accept and involve devi and avtar worship. Accordingly, these writings (Chandi Charitra and Chandi Di Var - 126 pages, Chaubis Avtar - 744 pages, Brahm Rudra Avtar - 383 pages, Charitropakhyan and Hikayat - 923 pages) are opposed to the doctrines of the Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib.

GURU GRANTH SAHIB ON DEVI AND AVTAR WORSHIP

About mythical writings and devi and avtar worship Guru Granth Sahib records :

(i) "O brother, fools worship gods and goddesses. They do not know that these imaginary deities can give nothing."[26]

(ii) "The Vedas, Brahma, gods and goddesses know not His secrets, and have no knowledge of the Creator."[27]

(iii) "The fools, the ignorant and the blind forget the Master Lord, and instead, worship His slaves, the goddesses and Maya."[28]

GURU GOBIND SINGH ON DEVI WORSHIP

Hereunder we give the bani of the Tenth Guru as in the Akal Ustat :

(i) "There are millions of Indras and incarnations of Brahma, Vishnu and Krishna. But, without worship of God none are accepted in His Court." (stanza thirtyeight).

(ii) "Millions of Indras are servants at His door. Countless are the insignificant Shivas, Ramas and Krishnas." (stanza 40).

(iii) "Some worship Shiva (Mahadev); some say Vishnu is master of the universe, and that by devotion to him, all calamities disappear. O, fool, think over a thousand times and understand that at the last moment everyone will leave you in the lurch to die alone. Remember only the One Lord who will never forsake you." (ibid).

(iv) "There was a Shiva; he was gone, and there appeared another and he was gone too. There are innumerable avtars like Rama or Krishna." "Countless are Brahmas, Vishnus, Vedas, Puranas and Simritis that have come and gone." (stanza 77).

These being the categoric hymns of Guru Granth Sahib and the clear statements of the Tenth Guru himself, does it make any sense that he approved of or could ever have accepted any of the writings mentioned earlier, which so clearly involve worship of devis and devtas, and some of which faithfully reflect and reproduce Puranic writings and myths in praise of avtars and the devis, suggesting faith in the efficacy of the mantar system discarded by Guru Granth Sahib ?

CHANGING NAME OF THE GRANTH

There is another important factor suggesting that the major part of the Dasam Granth is actually taken from some other sources, and has been mistakenly or deliberately combined with the bani of the Tenth Guru. For example, the writings were originally all separate and unconnected pothis, or compilations. For thatreason these were first called 'Dasam Patshah Ka Granth.' This name does not suggest any authorship of the Guru, but only seeks to link his name by way of reference to his period or quarters. Later, the granth was called Dasam Granth and still later Sri Dasam Granth, and so on. The frequent changes in name only reflect the interests of the writers or the publishers.

That this is a deliberate mix-up, is evident from the fact that originally most parts of the granth were called Bachittar Natak Granth. This name appears 151 times in the Puranic parts of the compilation. It is repeatedat the end of each composition, story, chapter or poem. This name appears 19 times in Rama Avtar, 67 times in Krishna Avtar, 33 times at the end of the stories of other Avtars, etc.

The probability is that the mix-up has been done deliberately. For, Puranic verses, and chhands in praise of devi are interpolated in the midst of what is clearly the bani of the Tenth Guru, as seen in the light of Guru Granth Sahib. Similarly, some couplets, which are the bani of the Tenth Guru, as seen in the context of Guru Granth Sahib, stand introduced in the midst of Puranic stories.

The bani in Guru Granth Sahib is the Sole Guru and Guide of every Sikh. It is the Light that alone shows us the way to truth, especially when one may be wavering or in doubt. May we ask if there is any objection to accepting what is clearly in consonance with it and avoiding what is admittedly, theologically and logically, opposed to it ?

CONCLUSION

Our discussion makes it plain that such contents of the Dasam Granth as suggest worship of gods, goddesses and avtars, are opposed to the doctrines of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Gurus. These are also opposed to the unanimously accepted bani of Guru Gobind Singh, quoted above. By no stretch of reason can it be suggested that those writings are consonant with the bani and doctrines of Guru Granth Sahib. On the other hand, they clearly support the theory of avtarhood which the Gurus have emphatically rejected. Further, we find that there is not a shred of historical evidence to suggest that the Guru at any time approved of it. In fact, he had thrown away or permitted to be scattered, whatever was not worth presentation. On the other hand, Guru Granth Sahib was declared the Guru. Gurbani has been given to us to test what is valid or true and what is unacceptable or spurious. That test is final and unalterable.

It is also evident that none of the devi or avtar-worship writings are the collection of a Sikh or indicate the authorship of a Sikh as the original scribe or compiler. On the other hand, the manner in which this mix-up has been done, and the method of writing Gurbani laid down by the Gurus, grossly violated in the old birs, show that the author could not be a Sikh. Further, already the S.G.P.C. has accepted the position that 923 pages of Charitropakhyan are Puranic myths, unconnected with the Guru.

Many outside scholars have clearly stated that in the absence of clarification of the position about the Dasam Granth, the stand and history of the Tenth Guru cannot be clear. The oblique suggestion is that the Tenth Guru brought the Panth into the Hindu fold, and drew inspiration from the Puranic past and the Shakti cult, even though it is a historical fact that the hill princes, the staunch worshippers of the Shakti or devi cult, not only opposed the Guru, but also voluntarily accepted the supremacy of the mighty Mughal instead of confronting him. Another scholar, Ramji Lal, writes that Sikhs are Hindus, saying, "The Khalsa was constituted to emancipate the Hindu society from the contemporary evils including idolatry, caste system, superstition and ritualism." "Again at that time among the disciples of the Great Guru Gobind Singh - Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Kanahya and Mohkam Chand, all were Hindus. Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dayala who sacrificed their lives along with Guru Tegh Bahadur, were also Hindus." "Not only this, but Guru Gobind Singh himself revered Hindu Goddesses - Chandi and Durga and the Hindu avtars including - Sri Ram Chander and Lord Krishna."[29]While it is well-known that views of many scholars like Bhai Ardaman Singh of Bagrian, Dr Jaggi, Shamsher Singh Ashok, Prof. Jagjit Singh, Principal Harbhajan Singh, Principal Jagjit Singh, Dr Rann Singh, Sardar Harnam Singh, Maj. Gen. Narinder Singh, Sardar M.S. Marco, Bhai Ashok Singh and others are the same as ours. Open attempts at ideological erosion, as quoted above, are being made. Hence the need of academic clarification. For, no Sikh can accept that anything opposed to the categoric rejection of the doctrine of avtarhood in Guru Granth Sahib, could ever be from an authentic Sikh source, much less from the Tenth Guru. It is undeniable that Guru Granth Sahib is our Living Guru, and its principles and doctrines are our Sole Guide to test the veracity or acceptability of any idea, concept, writing, suggestion or activity.

REFERENCES

1. Chhibber, Kesar Singh : Bansavalinama, p. 1.

2. Guru Granth Sahib : p. 1136.

3. Chhibber, Kesar Singh : op. cit., p. 135.

4. Ibid., p. 136.

5. Ibid.

6. Ibid.

7. Gian Singh : Panth Prakash, p. 320.

8. Ibid., pp. 688-689.

9. Ibid., p. 321.

10. Bhalla, Sarupdas : Mehma Parkash, p. 794.

11. Jaggi, Rattan Singh : Dasam Granth da Karitartav, pp. 38-45.

12. Ibid., pp. 92-93.

13. Ibid.

14. Ibid., pp. 93-95.

15. Ibid., pp. 95-97.

16. Ibid., pp. 97-98.

17. Gupta, H.R. : The Sikh Gurus, p. 245.

18. Jaggi, Rattan Singh : op. cit., pp. 152-154.

19. Ibid., p. 152.

20. Ibid., p. 153.

21. Guru Granth Sahib : p. 1.

22. Ibid., p. 1136.

23. Ibid., p. 473.

24. Ibid., p. 547.

25. Ibid., pp. 464, 1156.

26. Ibid., p. 637.

27. Ibid., p. 894.

28. Ibid., p. 1138.

29. Geholt, N.S. : Politics of Communalism and Secularism, Deep and Deep Publications, New Delhi, 1993, p. 67.