Charitropakhyan etc written by Court Poets (historical)

[mrsingh]

Dal Singh Paji, maybe it's a lot simpler than that.

Instead of devoting 10years to writing these 404 sexually erotic stories under these various pen names as some dubiously claim ...

Is it not possible that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj were more focussed on spreading the Truth of Sikhi, fighting oppression and discrimination of the poor and the weak, working tirelessly for societal upliftment and defending the innocent from the Genocide of Aurangzeb?

[Singh123456777]

Makhia are always attracted to tatti.

lol

[mrsingh]

As i said earlier, there is no way treh charitar can be separated from rest of amrit sanchar banis as there is stanza in chaupi sahib (same chaupi sahib recited in amrit sanchar), which explicitly  points to 405 charitar. So you cannot separate charitropakhyan from khalsa intiation tradition, this composition is interlinked with one of amrit sanchar bani (chaupi sahib) since 1699. So if you wish to reject charitropakhyan you are indirectly rejecting chaupai sahib composition, and if thats case - sign a declaration ..I am sorry people cannot have it both ways.

N30 Paji the juxtaposition of Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib with Triya Charitar was only done in 1897 by the British and Arya Samaj sponsored Sodak Committee where Khemu Bedi personally decided this to be case. Stanza's could easily have been interjected by this alliance of anti-Sikh forces in order to give false credibility to the notion that the sexual erotica stories of Triya Charitar should be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ... as was openly done by the Hindu Mahants between 1897 and the liberation of our Gurdwara's in the 1920's from their depraved casteist Hindu control. The casteist Hindu Mahants delighted in reading out Triya Charitar daily at Darbar Sahib so that their prostitutes could girate to it and yet 100years on so many sincere younger Sikhs are being conned into believing the very lies of our Hindutva enemies. 

Reject Charitropakhyan --> Reject Dohra --> Reject Chaupai --> Reject concept of Panj Bania --> Reject Amrit --> Reject Initiation into Khalsa --> Reject being a Sikh !!!

wah wah !

Raagmala Ji you are being deliberately simplistic. The vast majority of Sikhs reject the Triya Charitar sexual erotica stories as not being Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's own words/stories but have 100% faith in Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth.

If it was a text by Rishis then it would be in Sanskrit as was the Books of knowledge. So Guru Sahib would have translated these for the common man to understand,as with most of the Dasam Granth (Chaubees Avtar, Cahndi Charitar) and this would have been the first time that the lower varnas would have access to them.

Chatanga Paji that's absolute fine if you admit that most of Dasam Granth are just translations of earlier Hindu stories. I think the problem the majority of Sikhs have is that these Hindu stories are often now claimed to be original thoughts from the pen of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and to be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Isn't there a letter from Bhai Mani Singh telling Mata Sundri that he has located the Krishan Avtar and CharitarPakhyan?

Chatangi Paji the letter has been proven as a forgery.

I believe Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi and many others have debunked it.

http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=10199

paapiman, singh123456777, Harjot8963, Raagmala and chatanga1 Ji can all of you kindly clarify whether you believe the 404 Tiya charitars (excluding Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib) to be the original personally-devised (unplagiarised) work of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj themself or if you believe that the 404 charitars are in fact translations of earlier historic Hindu sexual erotica stories?

Edited July 30, 2015 by mrsingh

[Harjots8963]

 

SO MUCH ANAND!!!!!

[paapiman]

N30 Paji the juxtaposition of Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib with Triya Charitar was only done in 1897 by the British and Arya Samaj sponsored Sodak Committee where Khemu Bedi personally decided this to be case. Stanza's could easily have been interjected by this alliance of anti-Sikh forces in order to give false credibility to the notion that the sexual erotica stories of Triya Charitar should be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ... as was openly done by the Hindu Mahants between 1897 and the liberation of our Gurdwara's in the 1920's from their depraved casteist Hindu control. The casteist Hindu Mahants delighted in reading out Triya Charitar daily at Darbar Sahib so that their prostitutes could girate to it and yet 100years on so many sincere younger Sikhs are being conned into believing the very lies of our Hindutva enemies. 

- Please provide evidence

- There is erotica in SSGGSJ too. Should we reject those verses or not? Answer this?

Raagmala Ji you are being deliberately simplistic. The vast majority of Sikhs reject the Triya Charitar sexual erotica stories as not being Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's own words/stories but have 100% faith in Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth.

- Majority is not always right. 

- Majority of so-called Sikhs do not consume Khanday da amirt. Should we reject khanday da amrit too?

Chatanga Paji that's absolute fine if you admit that most of Dasam Granth are just translations of earlier Hindu stories. I think the problem the majority of Sikhs have is that these Hindu stories are often now claimed to be original thoughts from the pen of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and to be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

- There are Hindu stories in SSGGSJ. Should we reject them too?

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 30, 2015 by paapiman

[mrsingh]

Harjot8963 and paapiman Ji sidhi gal da sidha jawab vi dedo na yaaro? :-) 

I believe Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi and many others have debunked it.

http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=10199

paapiman, singh123456777, Harjot8963, Raagmala and chatanga1 Ji can all of you kindly clarify whether you believe the 404 Tiya charitars (excluding Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib) to be the original personally-devised (unplagiarised) work of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj themself or if you believe that the 404 charitars are in fact translations of earlier historic Hindu sexual erotica stories?

So Harjot Ji + Paapi Ji without relying on video's or rhetorical questions to avoid the pertinent questions

... Can you kindly directly answer the question in red above?

 

Edited July 30, 2015 by mrsingh

[paapiman]

Quote 

paapiman, singh123456777, Harjot8963, Raagmala and chatanga1 Ji can all of you kindly clarify whether you believe the 404 Tiya charitars (excluding Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib) to be the original personally-devised (unplagiarised) work of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj themself or if you believe that the 404 charitars are in fact translations of earlier historic Hindu sexual erotica stories?

Unquote

It does not matter to Sikhs, whether it was written by Satguru jee or approved by Satguru jee --- Either way, we must respect and follow its teachings. Even Bhagat Gurbani and Bhatt Gurbani, were not initially uttered by any of the masters, but approved and included in SSGGSJ.

Bhul chul maaf

[Koi]

[CdnSikhGirl]

It's white feminism.

 

Because they've been majorly suppressed by white men (like a lot of people have....), and Abrahamic faiths - which blame the whole fall of mankind (no less) as the result of some women's weakness (Eve and apple), they have become allergic to seeing ANYTHING written about women that doesn't represent them as perfect, angelic, wholesome, victims.

Like women are incapable of seduction, or have never used their wiles to get what they want. Like women are incapable of strong feelings of lust.....

Having brought Euro-white men to their knees, they think they can now expand their shit onto other communities - and they DON'T LIKE Charitriopakyaan, because it smashes open an element of male and female interpersonal dynamics that they don't feel is flattering. What they don't get is that the work highlights men's weaknesses and gullibility as much as women's.

 

Our own phudhoos hatred of it probably stems from deeply internalised Victorian 'morality' that they've imbibed from Europeans. 

Actually for the first 4 or so years I followed Sikhi I had no idea what DG or the Charitropakhyan was.  And it never came up at the Gurdwara either... 

It wasn't until I encountered a Singh online who told me in no uncertain terms that women were to sit quietly and learn at the Gurdwara and let the men do all the seva (aside from the kitchen of course) because women were the root of all immorality in the world, and told me that everything in the dasam granth was coming true... and as a woman I should learn to be submissive and follow men's leadership.  At the time I had no idea what Dasam Granth even was.  He explained to me this and women's inherent impurity were why women were barred from seva of SGGSJ in historical gurdwaras (not true... I have seen women do seva in historical gurdwaras including kirtan and chaur sahib seva and taking hukam etc - just not at darbar sahib)  At the time I didn't even know what Damdami Taksal was... I thought all Sikhs were the same.  And I had been taught that women were equal to men in Sikhi and that no religious duty or seva was reserved for men only.

So its obvious that whether or not the intention was to affect men's minds and poison them against women, in groups that hold DG on high authority that seems to be the case.  

And your claims that it also shows men in bad light are wrong... in nearly ALL stories, the woman is shown as immoral, deceiver... and the man is shown as gullible victim. Therefore it paints the picture that women are inherently evil and men are just their victims.  In groups like DDT (at least some of them), there exists a deep rooted disdain for women... thinking of them as impure, immoral, deceivers, temptresses... and that deep rooted feeling is directly attributable to DG.  

THAT'S why I find it hard to believe our Guru Ji would write that himself.  Because I highly doubt he thought of all women in this way or ever intended for this deep rooted negativity towards women, or the tendency to restrict us and dictate and control us and make us feel inferior to men.  I highly doubt that would have ever been his intention.  

Paapiman is a great one as an example how this deep rooted disdain towards women manifests... just ask him how women should bow to men, men have higher 'status' than women, women should have less rights to do seva etc.  

This deep rooted disdain of women, does not seem to exist outside of the few groups who worship DG.  So you can't ignore there is a correlation...

[amardeep]

Amardeep you can read it here :

http://punjabipedia.org/topic.aspx?txt=ਬਵੰਜਾ/ਬਾਵਨ ਕਵੀ

But i dont know if it's the original.

Cheers bro. The text has parts missing as you can see with the verse numbers.

Sikhkhoj: I take it you've done research on this granth yourself - Can you scan the pages for sangat. Then we will discuss from the original texts directly rather than someone else's interpretation of it.

Edited July 30, 2015 by amardeep

[Singh123456777]

That should seal this debate, op initial position on this thread. Thanks pappiman.

This should be but idiots will keep on repeating crap.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Singh123456777

[CdnSikhGirl]

 

It does not matter to Sikhs, whether it was written by Satguru jee or approved by Satguru jee --- Either way, we must respect and follow its teachings. Even Bhagat Gurbani and Bhatt Gurbani, were not initially uttered by any of the masters, but approved and included in SSGGSJ.

Bhul chul maaf

Paapiman, can you please tell me in your own words and understanding, summarize what are the teachings to take away from charitropakhyan??? What exactly did you learn from those stories??

 

[Singh123456777]

Harjot8963 and paapiman Ji sidhi gal da sidha jawab vi dedo na yaaro? :-) 

So Harjot Ji + Paapi Ji without relying on video's or rhetorical questions to avoid the pertinent questions

... Can you kindly directly answer the question in red above?

 

Maharaj used examples from other Hindu granths but also wrote his own pure bani in Sri charitarpkhyian such as Sri chaupi sahib and a lot more. These Hindu granths were not available to lower castes and were in different languages and maharaj Ji wanted his Sikhs and the world to know what is written in granths. The lower caste could not say raam! They had to say Maar instead and if a lower caste did say raam they would have their tounge cut off by Hindu Brahmins. If the lower caste read any hindu Granth they would have taken out their eyes. If the lower caste listened to any Hindu Granth hot wax would be put in their ears. The guru translated a lot of the Hindu granths cause he wanted the lower caste to know about those granths. He wanted his Sikhs regardless of caste to have knowledge of other religions granths as well. Remember maharaj Ji sent Singhs to kanshi to learn about the Vedas etc. Guru Ji also gave his opinion a lot in chaubis avatar and wrote a lot in Sri charitarpkhyian which is dhur ki bani (for example chaupi sahib etc)

The Sri dasam Granth is all written by maharaj Ji and he included his own dhur ki bani and translations and all of it should be respected.

Also a majority of Sikhs that you say don't believe in Sri charitarpkhyian are people who aren't amritdhari. So your point is invalid.

mrsingh if you are afraid of kaam vale tuks then take out all kaam vale tuks in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cause there are a lot of them. Mrsingh if you are afraid of Hindu stories then you should take out all the Hindu stories in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Do what teja bhasuria did and make your own Granth cause you clearly have a lot of phobias.

[Singh123456777]

Paapiman, can you please tell me in your own words and understanding, summarize what are the teachings to take away from charitropakhyan??? What exactly did you learn from those stories??

 

What I learned was the wiles of men, women, the good values of men and women etc. How did I learn all these? I learnt them cause I READ IT PROPERLY UNLIKE YOU!!!

 

[Singh123456777]

To sikhkoj, Satkiran and mrsingh:

If you want a really study I dare you to read the steek of dasam Granth by pandit narain Singh and then only then make up your mind about it. English translation are not always right especially with hard understand gurbani like Sri charitarpkhyian. 

But I know none of you will read any steek cause you guys think you are already knowledgable on Sri dasam Granth.

[SikhKhoj]

This is the text from Mahima Parkash (Thanks to Chatanga):

http://punjabipedia.org/topic.aspx?txt=ਬਵੰਜਾ/ਬਾਵਨ ਕਵੀ

Anyone interested can read the first 10 stanzas of the Sakhi there and confirm if it matches with what I said in my initial post

 

 

[SikhKhoj]

To sikhkoj, Satkiran and mrsingh:

If you want a really study I dare you to read the steek of dasam Granth by pandit narain Singh and then only then make up your mind about it. English translation are not always right especially with hard understand gurbani like Sri charitarpkhyian. 

But I know none of you will read any steek cause you guys think you are already knowledgable on Sri dasam Granth.

I have never voiced my concerns about Dasam Granth in regards to its 'obscene language' or Charitropakhyans 'dirty stories' or whatever. I am not a feminist either. I am just saying that Charitropakhyan is not Guru Krit, nor are the Chaubis Avtar etc from a historical perspective.

Edited July 30, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

This is the text from Mahima Parkash (Thanks to Chatanga):

http://punjabipedia.org/topic.aspx?txt=ਬਵੰਜਾ/ਬਾਵਨ ਕਵੀ

Anyone interested can read the first 10 stanzas of the Sakhi there and confirm if it matches with what I said in my initial post

 

 

Lets read the whole sakhi. The text on that page has a verse missing and it has been cut after verse 10. Can you please scan the pages and then we will do proper khoj on the entire sakhi.

[Harjots8963]

Guys...

Lets move this to the Chat Room??

Neo Can Moderate... Set a time perhaps..>

What do you say?


Settle this properly...

It's been going on for weeks...

We will not allow the Slander of our Dashmesh Pita Jis Bani.

[Singh123456777]

I have never voiced my concerns about Dasam Granth in regards to its 'obscene language' or Charitropakhyans 'dirty stories' or whatever. I am not a feminist either. I am just saying that Charitropakhyan is not Guru Krit, nor are the Chaubis Avtar etc from a historical perspective.

 From one historical perspective. If you had more than one then you would have had something to actually stand on but until you have more proof I won't change my views. You are entitled to your own opinion though.

[chatanga1]

N30 Paji the juxtaposition of Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib with Triya Charitar was only done in 1897 by the British and Arya Samaj sponsored Sodak Committee where Khemu Bedi personally decided this to be case.

Wow. The Sanatanists blame the british for introducing anti-Dasam propoganda. you and your ss canada blame the british for introducing Dasam Granth to the Sikhs. Its typical missionary propoganda. you lot are just as bad as the sanatanist you despise. two sides of the same coin.

 

 Stanza's could easily have been interjected by this alliance of anti-Sikh forces in order to give false credibility to the notion that the sexual erotica stories of Triya Charitar should be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ...

Are you now saying you base your vitriol on "could"?

 

 The casteist Hindu Mahants delighted in reading out Triya Charitar daily at Darbar Sahib so that their prostitutes could girate to it

Do you any proof for this or is it just dhundas words? Come on I want you to show proof that this happened.

[SikhKhoj]

Same as bhagat banis, bhatt banis right? as they are not Guru krit(vak their rachna) either?

So you admit Guru Gobind Singh did not write Charitars but court poets did?

[SikhKhoj]

 From one historical perspective. If you had more than one then you would have had something to actually stand on but until you have more proof I won't change my views. You are entitled to your own opinion though.

I have just started? I am not done yet brother. And even in the extreme case that I had only 1 perspective, you don't even have one puratan proof that Guru Gobind Singh wrote Charitars himself?

[SikhKhoj]

Lets read the whole sakhi. The text on that page has a verse missing and it has been cut after verse 10. Can you please scan the pages and then we will do proper khoj on the entire sakhi.

Look you need to change this attitude where you first ask for proof, then for scans, then for a translation. Whats next? Asking to send you the book by post or what?

I gave book name, author and page number, I even typed out the Sakhi heading for you, what else do you need?

[chatanga1]

Chatanga Paji that's absolute fine if you admit that most of Dasam Granth are just translations of earlier Hindu stories. I think the problem the majority of Sikhs have is that these Hindu stories are often now claimed to be original thoughts from the pen of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and to be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

 

Mr Singh Ji, "if i admit" ??? Admit what? I don't need to admit anything, because some of the bani in Dasam Granth has the source already quoted such "Chandi Charitrar being the translation of Sri Markendya Puran".

You would know this if you bothered to look into it, instead of following dhunda.

The problem isn't that Sikhs beleive these words to be the original thoughts of Guru Sahib. The problem is people like you and that liar Asatkiran, who prefer to attach themselves like parasites onto people who know very little themselves.