Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
paapiman

Background to Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee

Recommended Posts

On 11/19/2017 at 1:53 PM, chatanga1 said:

The translation should read as "The Raja had many years of happiness with the Apsara."

Makes sense. If one says in Punjabi "is bande ne bahot ras bhoge". It doesn't have to be sexual pleasures. It could refer to other pleasures like living in a big modern house, travelling places, driving luxurious cars, eating a variety of foods, etc.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, paapiman said:

According to Niddar, the name of the wise minister is Tretiya. Daas has no idea on how he got that. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Please read the preface and introduction.

The answer you are looking for is in there.Please do not skip the preface or introduction and go straight to the charitters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, paapiman said:

According to Niddar, the name of the wise minister is Tretiya. Daas has no idea on how he got that. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

"This is particularly the case with one of the chief characters of the tales, the minister who is relating them; his name Tretiya only appears once in charitter 54 in verse two189."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Crystal said:

"This is particularly the case with one of the chief characters of the tales, the minister who is relating them; his name Tretiya only appears once in charitter 54 in verse two189."

Excellent stuff.

@amardeep - Remember, you mentioned that some things might come up later in the text. This is a perfect example of it. It is also possible that once we read the further Charitars, we might be in a position to deeply analysis the previous ones. This Gurbani is amazing.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My review of nidar singhs book

 

Pakhyaan charitter was written by Guru Gobind Singh, it is very controversial in Sikh groups. Many revisionist Sikhs/Sikhs of cult of personalities like to refute the association of "Pakhyaan Charitter" with Guru Gobind Singh due to some of explicit tales...this is very pathetic! as sikhi & the truth should not fall down to your personal ideal perception of what it sikhi should be... 
Regarding the book: 
the book gives background information regarding who Nidar Singh Nihang is, what he represents IE the 9th  Gurdev(teacher) of the Baba Darbara Singh Shastar vidiya akhara.

The preface and introduction is filled with vast amounts of wisdom. It gives a lot of background information that the reader would not usually know. The footnotes were amazing, you must read the footnote along with the charitter to fully understand, as there may be words you might not be familiar with. 


 Nidar Singh gives detail about Dasam Granth. He also mentions all past attempts at translating this text and the names of authors & year they published their works. However it must be noted all past attempts had failures, for example 
Pritpal Singh's 2002 translation. Pritpal Singh did not believe Pakhyaan Charitter was written by guru gobind singhji, so in this manner, pritpal Singh did not do justice to the translation as his own bias came into play & made his work flawed.

Nidar Singh also mentions key points regarding the stories, how names and details appear only at the end, or during the middle of the story. He writes the names of characters at the beginning of each charitter and makes it much easier to read/ understand. 

The book covers all aspects of sikhi, it's history, the way Sikhs of those times perceived themselves, philosophy, spirituality and much more. It would be a tragic loss if readers did not take up the opportunity to read the charitters in their true context and understand the true reason why the 10th guru penned this work.
 
The charitters are very well written, I found it very addictive, wanting to read on and on! 
There are many beautiful images, I think one image for every charitter, the paintings are of very high quality. Attention to detail & painted in the style/clothing of the times it was first penned. 

Nidar Singh Nihang gives great analysis into the charitters and makes some very crucial valid points. After reading the first volume I am somewhat puzzled...the charitters have come to life in my mind and in the reality of the times we live in "kaljug", with each story I can honestly say this kind of deception/deceptive tactics exist in 2018, I will argue even more than when it was written. Only because technology has evolved and we have a lot more ways to hide things we dont want others finding out. I am certain many of us can relate to these charitters. 


Nidar Singh Nihang should be commended for this first volume. It is truly ground-breaking work. It is very obvious a lot of time &  research went into this. 

Lastly, I will share a relevant extract . "For some living a lie is a better option than facing life crushing truth. In fact, most people, especially the overtly religious, prefer to live a life of self-delusion."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/01/2018 at 1:21 PM, Crystal said:

There are many beautiful images, I think one image for every charitter, the paintings are of very high quality.

How do these images relate to the charitars themselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was talking to a very highly educated young non-Sikh about literature and I sent him  a brief summary of the main story in Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth and the first charitar in it. He read it and got the idea behind it and also informed me that Constantinople, a great King of many centuries ago, found himself in a very similair situation. Constantine had 2 wives and the one wife wanted her son to be king, so she complained to King that his son (from the other wife, who was in line for the throne) had tried to force himself on her. She presented herself to the King in a similiar fashion but the King had his son put to death. Later he realised his mistake and had his wife (the complainent) killed as well.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

I was talking to a very highly educated young non-Sikh about literature and I sent him  a brief summary of the main story in Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth and the first charitar in it. He read it and got the idea behind it and also informed me that Constantinople, a great King of many centuries ago, found himself in a very similair situation. Constantine had 2 wives and the one wife wanted her son to be king, so she complained to King that his son (from the other wife, who was in line for the throne) had tried to force himself on her. She presented herself to the King in a similiar fashion but the King had his son put to death. Later he realised his mistake and had his wife (the complainent) killed as well.

 

 

Yes this is the kinds of literature that needs to be included in the discussion. Same goes for this which is very similiar to the charitro pakhyan in many regards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been thinking recently that the Charitro Pakhyan needs to be "engaged" with rather than a mere reading. We need to ask each charitar a question, and see if it can answer the question.

  1. Does this charitar teach us anything on moral issues?  If yes, discuss

If none, continue on to a new question:

  1. Does this charitar teach us anything on political issues? If yes, discuss

Other questions could be: does this charitar teach us anything on military matters? I'm really beginning to think the whole notion and popular narrative of saying Charitro Pakhyan teaches morals is entirely wrong. Morals is just one out of so many other aspects that is being taught or discussed.

Pandit Sharda Ram in 1866 wrote he following on the Dasam Granth:

"The Guru wished to compose a scripture by which the Sikhs could learn politics, martial skills, and by such intelligence be able for war. On that day, a large scripture was completed in september 1696. It was called the scripture of the tenth sovereign."

Thismethod of asking a question and letting the content be the answer can also be seen in the samprdaic tradition of teekas. Often you see the teekakaar asking a question before a verse, and the verse is then an answer to that question

Edited by amardeep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The names of the characters in the base story:

  • The king, Chitar Singh (ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ) means "Agile Tiger"
  • The queen, Chitar mati (ਚਿਤ੍ਰਮਤੀ) means "Agile Intellect"
  • The son, Hanuvant Singh (ਹਨਿਵਤਿ) means "The one with a long chin*"
  • The wise minister, Tretiya means "The third one".

* - Not sure about this one

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been reading Mahabharat again. I have come across something that is very close to the original CharitroPakhyan root story in resemblance.

When Arjun went to Inder lok, he met the King of the Gandharvs called "Chitar Sen". Whilst Arjun was there there was an apsara (again in the root story and also this apsara was the mother to the Pandav lineage) who wanted to have physical relations with him, but he refused saying that she was like his mother in status( again in the root story). She then cursed him because of his refusal. But she also admonished his for refusing "a woman who had threw herself at him (we saw this line repeated in Ch 21-23) saying that he had sinned by doing so. Remember there is also a reference to Krishna in these Charitars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

I have been reading Mahabharat again. I have come across something that is very close to the original CharitroPakhyan root story in resemblance.

When Arjun went to Inder lok, he met the King of the Gandharvs called "Chitar Sen". Whilst Arjun was there there was an apsara (again in the root story and also this apsara was the mother to the Pandav lineage) who wanted to have physical relations with him, but he refused saying that she was like his mother in status( again in the root story). She then cursed him because of his refusal. But she also admonished his for refusing "a woman who had threw herself at him (we saw this line repeated in Ch 21-23).

Very interesting. Cross textual reference

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2018 at 4:52 PM, paapiman said:

According to Niddar, the name of the wise minister is Tretiya. Daas has no idea on how he got that.  

 

Any more ideas on it since?

 

On 1/17/2018 at 5:58 PM, Crystal said:

The answer you are looking for is in there.Please do not skip the preface or introduction and go straight to the charitters. 

 

What does the preface say ?

 

On 1/17/2018 at 6:16 PM, Crystal said:

"This is particularly the case with one of the chief characters of the tales, the minister who is relating them; his name Tretiya only appears once in charitter 54 in verse two189."

 

IS the spelling the same Tretiya here? Meaning "third" ?

Tretiya.thumb.png.be48842cd732e2eeae20b133c00f59ce.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday I did some reading on the panchtantra and hitupdesha, both of which were translated in the guru darbaar. Both deal with rajniti through a series of animal fables. The hitupdesha was the first major book translated in the guru darbaar and pyara singh Padam found one manuscript from the 9th gurus darbAar 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitopadesha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, amardeep said:

Yesterday I did some reading on the panchtantra and hitupdesha, both of which were translated in the guru darbaar. Both deal with rajniti through a series of animal fables. The hitupdesha was the first major book translated in the guru darbaar and pyara singh Padam found one manuscript from the 9th gurus darbAar 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitopadesha

 

Good stuff. Any further details on this manuscript?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/29/2018 at 12:03 PM, chatanga1 said:

IS the spelling the same Tretiya here? Meaning "third" ?

Tretiya.thumb.png.be48842cd732e2eeae20b133c00f59ce.png

@paapiman did you get a chance to look this up?

 

also I want to add two further snippets from Mahabharat in relation to this background story :

Please read the last part of page 1 :

2109343982_Mahabharat2.thumb.jpg.ccf0bef029db2312fa761258f6022554.jpg658958293_Mahabharat1.thumb.jpg.9fcd5f740f9df94b377764ba843bf159.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...