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siklhitothemax varan seem to be in pick and mix mode, i think the webmaster is working on completing that section but at the moment you'd be better off going to sikhi.org.uk

Gurfateh to all. Im glad I got some replies, I was afraid of people just slandering me for questioning bani. However the question as to why use the lower castes (according to the caste system) to compare the evils too has still not been tackled.. also in reply to amardeep singh, in Guru Nanaks times im sure there where drummer women, (women born in the caste of drummer people) and a butcheress (wife of a butcher), and so on.. as it is not on about their job but a literal translation of their caste.

erm kinda confused is my post not allowed or the post of JOYce by the admin? coz there so many admin ppl, i aint got a clue..

This is a genuine question, not slandering at bani or anything just curious as to why it has been worded so.. http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=259 in that shabad maharaj refers to evils as low caste women, False-mindedness is the drummer-woman; cruelty is the butcheress; slander of others in one's heart is the cleaning-woman, and deceitful anger is the outcast-woman. Why would he use woman? and not have cruelty as a butcher.. ?? and anger as the outcast man? Also why isnt fasle mindedness a jatt woman? and cruelty a tarkhan woman? I was just browsing when i came across this shabad, and I couldnt get my head around why that choice of words and names, the only answer I could come up with was to show how bad the evils are by relating them to the lower castes.. but that doesnt seem to fit with the whole sikhi is not castist or sexist.. would be intrested in other (most probably better) interpretations,

Gurfateh Ji, neo i respect what u say about faith and all and not needing the proof, as that is haq.. (the mystical relationship one has with their guru allowing them to go beyond all physical or mental boundaries..) This can not be put into a set rule that all people abide by, as everyones relationship with their guru is different. But this is a discussion forum, and I wished to discuss these issues of how much of sikhi is logically true.. and how much is fabricated chinese whispers, and how much is just wonderful mystical non logical yet true.. if any.

so it seems rather then accept the story the way it is told, we should look for the logical answer getting rid of these mythological mystical magical additions to the what really.. happened. abit like chinese whisper.. dont hate me for asking im just wondering but couldnt the same misconception and changing have happened to alot of our historical stories which we hold so dear to us? such as the amrit sanchaar with the cutting of the singhs heads?

i know a nihang who reads it.. and intresting points on the whole control of the 5 evils.. etc.. Just like Bhagat Dhana.. in the artee arta.. seems like he is demanding all these luxuries but in fact he just wants to have them in order to control his mind.. Kahai Kabir, Man Mania... Man Mania toh Har Jania.. and the oh so famous.. Man Jeeteh.. Jah Jeet.. The mind is but a tool of the five evils.. yet when conquered then the 5 evils are but a tool..to the gurmukh..

Yeh i have always wondered, if the whole jantar tantar mantar and using magic stuff is all ment to be wrong and stuff and the gurus led by example, how come they preformed all these magical acts.. be it the holy pitcher (get it.. lol) or the handy rock.. ? Also when thinking about Baba Deep Singh.. I always wonder that he had his head chopped off yet continued to fight.. as he had made the promise that he would fight till the end.. or something (sorry not too clued up on the detailed story) but then doesnt that show he went against the command of kaal? prolonging his life because he was attached (moh) to life and did not accept death when it came but used his shakti to continue?? i thought that was against the basic principles of sikhi.. to accept gods hukam (death in this case)..

its not the dasam bani which is hard to get, its the acceptance of the maryada of dasam which stops so many jathas and cults from accepting dasam, be it sgpc, taksal, akj, etc etc.. The Aad granth was compiled by Bhai Gurdas Ji, but was the mool mantar not used before that date? or the japji? In the same way the three bania of dasam could have been used in the first amrit sanchaar, and then later compiled into the dasam granth. p.s.. this new quick reply thing is damn funky.. !!!

http://miripiriacademy.org/

my point exactly Hari.. I know im in muddy waters and what im saying is confusing coz im the one whos confused and asking if my stupid theory has any value.. like i said before and if i didnt i ment to say its just a theory.. no proof other then what i think hence the whole questioning and answer part.. can anyone either provide more evidance for or against what im saying.. my theory was sparked by the reading of a book called aghori, and a conversation with an udasi baba.

i have a mala made from bone.. whats so special about the material they are made from ???

lalleshvari Ji I understand that Guru Ji's joht is from akaalpurakh and not in the cycle of reincarnation however the body which housed the joht of satguru must of had some soul in it before the joht of the guru took residance in it, and certain aghori beliefs and rituals allow a similiar type of possession of bodies and souls.. its this first soul before satguru joht was placed into maharaj which i feel must have also gone through the cycle of birth and death then been liberated its last life being that of dusht daman, Just as Guru Nanak was all the previous avtaars in all the other ages.. Just a theory.. as you said worth looking into..

Machi Ji Guru Gobind Singh Ji in his previous life was Dusht Daman and as Dusht Daman he must have done somethnig seriously good in order to get salvation and also in order to become Guru in his next life, but he couldnt have walked the path of sikhism as it wasnt around then, so the question is what path did he follow in order to become Guru Gobind Singh and just as previous karam effect our lives does the creation of the Khalsa have anything to do with Dusht damans path of life.. If so what was that path. ?? I personally think at the moment the weirdest but possibly most likely fit is the aghoris..

It would explain the love for bhaguati the idea of khalsa being reborn and salvation from the death of the self, etc, akaal and kaal fall into a greater context when you look at sikhi with an aghori view.. Even thoguh they are complete opposite they seem to fit in exactly perfectly...

Sikhi wasnt around when Guru Ji was Dusht Daman so what was his beliefs ? I think he might have been an Aghori, but its weird to think that the khalsa came from the aghori panth yet it makes alot of sense too.. Weird.. :twisted:

Note: Do not take everyones blood samples.. :shock: Laws of the land should be respected and not abused, but then again all countries respect that every individual will do certain things which are against the law, but as long as they are done on an individual basis and do not effect the masses the law really dont give a kahoot, Look at half the programmers out there how many sikh websites including this one do you think where made on computers with not a single illegal copy of some software..??? How many singhs in uk wear a kirpan under 6 inches or whatever the law was on kirpans. Even the sikh rehats understand that an individual will take these as guidlines not rules.. (fvourite quote from pirates of the 'however you spell that word beginning with c').. but thats my opinion. I have not yet heard of a Nihang singh drug lord or mass degh producing factories under gurdvaras :twisted: im sure if the cops found degh on you they would take appropriate action (if the amount is small enough just for personal use and in the form of leaves, should get a warning and the degh confiscated, repeat offense will result in fines- i think). if you have the degh in resin form then u better off running im sure rugrda is ment to be rugra !!

Jakaaara Gajaavaa Fateh Paveeeh Shiv JI Nooh Man No Paveeeh Sat Sri Akaaaaaaaall.. Goooor Br Akaaaaaaal .. Just as Guru and Satguru are the same, Just as Jan and Har jan are the same just as a wave and the ocean are one and the same in the same way shiv and mahashiv or sadashiv are one and the same. Shiv Ji has given us much more then just the Aad chand The great gift of the Kashera was given by Bajrang bali Hunuman Ji(incarnation of Shiv Ji) Blue dress of the khalsa panth – blue skin of Shiv Ji Bhagauti as a source of shakti and protection at our side – Parvati (shakti) at the side of shiv The farla of Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj and Akali Nihang Singhs – Ganga on the head of Shiv Ji In oral tradition the roop of the khalsa is sometimes called Shivsaroop. It is also said that amrit was once kept by the devta (as it is the nectar which makes mortals into devta) at Shivpuri (shivs kingdom) and Guru Gobind Singh Ji took it from Shiv Puri and bought it to Anand Puri. There are many many more gifts and blessings that Shiv Ji graced on the panth. The whole guru chela concept in the khalsa also can be seen between Sri Raam Ji and Shiv Ji, Sri Raam Ji chela of Shiv Ji --- Sikhs chela of Guru Shiv Ji becomes Hunuman Ji – Guru Creates khalsa Hunuman chela of Raam --- Guru Chela of Sikhs/Khalsa p.s If you believe in caste or not its worth noting that Jatts are said to come from the Jatta (knotted hair) of Shiv Ji. It would be intresting to find out if jallandar the district in Punjab has any links to jallandhar the demon who came out from shiv ji? It would explain the high labido and aggression of doabia ppl. The shabad from Akaal ustaat pauree 77 I tried to give a wishy washy translation to: Ek shiv bhaie ek gayaie ek fir bhaie One Shiv came one went and then another came Ramchandar Krishan Kaie Avtar Biii Anaik Hai There are many avtars like Sri Raamchandar and Krishan Maharaj Bhrama Aur Bishan kataie ved au puran kaitaie There are many bhrams, Vishnu, veds, and purans simrat smahan kai hoi hoi bitaie And many writers of Smritis who have come and gone maundi madhar kaitaie ausni kamar kaitaie Loads of (protects of faith)MuavNudeen and Madhar have been, and many Ashwani Kumars ansa avtaar kaita kaaaaaaaal baaas bhaie haaie There have been many Avtars who have come to kaal(death) pir aur bhiiikambar kaitaie gaanie n parat aaietaie Many pirs(holy men) and prophets too many to count boomi hiii taie hoiii kaie fair boomi hii millai haaie From the earth they came (born) and then meet with the earth again (die) As this bani is about the ustaat of Akaal (the immortal) this pauree as majority of this section of the bani indicate that nothing is beyond kaal except the one who is Akaal (god) everything including shiv and bhram all either merge into god or remain in the cycle of birth and death but non are beyond death except Akaalpurakh. Now one may say that the statement about Shiv coming and going shows he is in the cycle of births and deaths, but then again hes an avtar, and that’s what avtars do! Just as Guru Gobind Singh indicates in Bachitar Natak he too had to come back to be born again as an avtar. Guru Nanak has constantly come and gone throughout the four yugs as indicated in Aad Granth Maharaj Bhatta de savaye mahalla pehle ke pauree 7 ang 1390. :twisted:

<----- <----- LOOK ITS A PICTURE OF SHIVJI WITH SUNBURN.. !!!! <-----

Third gender.. :twisted: It was the same topic which caused so much fear and panic amongst the fusarpanthis within the BOSS (British Organisation of Sikh Students) that they closed down their forum. And also during a khalistani March held in hyde park (london UK) some idiot went around telling people that on the post regarding third genders as equals in the panth, Mai Bhago was called a TOYBOY !! (not a tomboy which would imply she is a very masculine female, but a toyboy which is a yound lover for older women). The inability for modern day fusarpanthi sikhs to accept all walks of life, and to accept people for what they truely are rather then turn them into this idiotic idolistic view of the supreme sikh (perfect human - similar to hitlers ideas) or refuse to acknowledge their existance as equal, is damn disappointing and disgraceful.

If its truthful love then go for it. All you can do is lose or gain. Someones religion dont mean crap, A religion is like a name, just another way to label people and put them in a certain group. There are two very simple groups that which is truthful and that which is not. If you act in truth 100 % then religion wont effect either of you, when kabir seeked out the truth he found the same akaalpurkh as nanak, dhanna Jat, etc. So your religious orientation should not matter, when it comes to truth of any kind be it friendship or love.

:twisted: For many it is just a ritualistic action we all do when entering darbar. From a small age we all learn to put the money in the box and touch the head on the floor, thats the majority of cases. Next time you are at the gurdvara just watch as people bow down. But this doesnt mean all people bow because they have become acustom to it. It is a very personal experience one which only the Guru and Disciple know about. For some its the whole maan, taan, and moorakh idea, others its a show of respect as gurus bani is holy. Also one must keep in mind that when entering Maharajs Darbar, they are entering the throne room of a Great King. It has been a tradition that one would show their respect to the king by bowing or touching of his feet before taking a seat. Rupz you said: Keep in mind that God is beyond all forms and representations, Guru is not God, yet Guru is a part of God. Just as a wave is not the ocean but a part of it.

I agree with H singh, There are no references made at the end of that post so I would request that someone provide the source of that post, Stating it is a hukam of maharaj, makes it very official in terms of sikhi so the word should not be used lightly, If the author of the 52 characteristics has composed it from their own understanding then please state so, or if it is a correlation of different sources please provide a reference.

p.s. dont blame the mods or freak at them.. they doing there best to keep idiots like me from messing around..

:shock: My wonderful beautiful post.. where hast thou gone.. Alot of ppl seem offended by what I have said. You say im being rude and so forth yet I cant see what gives you that impression, other then the fact I refer to high pitched screaming as orgasms.. The sound is very similiar I was just trying to express my personal preception on the whole experience. Bhai Sahib stated that my points where false and invalid and that i didnt reply to any of his questions. Yet I feel I did. Please correct me if im wrong. Which according to you I always am. :twisted: I would like to emphasise what I express is my own view gathered from my own experiences and knowledge.. Those experiences include naamdhridh from the AKJ, and misleading information which portrays all to be false other then that which is tought by a fellow AKJ who has no qualifications other then what he or she has heard from another member of the Randhirpanth.