CdnSikhGirl

Are you saying men are superior because they are physically stronger (usually?) does physical brute = superiority over other virtues like intuition and intelligence? How can you say that physical strength is what Waheguru Ji looks at as what makes someone superior to another? (Easy to do when you are in the group you are trying to say is superior... This "I am" "You are" thinking... Is this not EGO?) Where did this notion that our Creator values physical strength over everything else come from? Our Gurus did not say anything at all to that effect, unlike Christanity and Islam for example.

Exactly, and neither should gender. That was my point. That's its silliness. All such distinction that caused inequality were removed with Amrit... And everyone emerges as absolute equals as khalsa. Panj is selected as the five most spiritually active. Caste, gender, colour, etc don't matter. You just agreed that it's not an exact reenactment of the original...because it would be silly to try. You played right into my point! I was showing how silly the idea of barring women using this reasoning was. We need to get away from this I am you are egotistical thinking.... No more I am this you are that, I am better than you because... We need to get rid of this ego.

Just so you have an idea... There is a photo of me from that parade! This position I was in for 1.5 hrs without moving at all. It's obviously not a meditation pose lol it's me just to right of the bell (obviously before I started to tie a dastar)

The most time I spent in one position without moving must have been 1.5 hrs... and it was with the military at a very important parade for remembrance. I was chosen to be a sentry at the cenotaph. That requires bowed head, and rifle resting on boot and your hands crossed over the butt (of the rifle) and not moving once in that position for the entire time. The parade was a blur actually... I think I kind of was in meditation - thats the only way I can explain how I made it through. It was also very hot outside that day and sun beating down. Some very strange recollection of time that day actually... it was like I said about 1.5 hrs but felt like only 15 mins. (felt it the next day though lol)

That's what I was alluding to That everything we 'hear' is really internal.. its really our soul that is hearing and not the physical body. Having experienced the OBE state, I can say that I know what the feeling of movement without feet is like... and hearing without ears... Basically when I say the entire universe is vibration... its because everything arises out of the ONE consciousness... matter is all just energy vibrating at a slow state (comparatively speaking). Our true nature is actually nonphysical. btw I am really loving this forum... as I am finding lots of like minded people here nice to meet you!

I have experienced sounds I can't describe to others during some spiritually transformative events. Some were like static, rushing, pusling, electrical, vibrational sounds..... Other times more like wind. I have also heard sounds that were more like chimes like I was surrounded by hundreds of wind chimes. It's really difficult to explain to others that the sounds are indeed actually 'heard' even though they are not something from the outside environment. Thing is what we consider to be sound is only what our brain deciphers the electrical signals to be. ALL sound is internal. Until our brain deciphers the pressure waves in the air and the choclea changes it to electrical signals.... What we perceive as sound does not exist at all. Sound requires a source, a medium, and a receiver. Without the receiver (your ear) it remains as mere pressure waves in a medium (air). So to me the interesting thing is to wonder where are we receiving the signals from, that we are recognizing as sound? And I find it very very awe inspiring that over 500 years ago, our Gurus knew that the basis of sound (and everything in existence) was vibration, long before science knew!!

WJKK WJKF My issue with it being just a way to warn males about the wiles of women and their decving and sexually deviant ways is this: At that time, the prevailing view of women was exactly that anyway. It was common thought / knowledge amongst society at that time that women were an obstruction to men's spirituality and it was even thought that women did not attain mukhti until they were first reborn in a male joon... Yes it was Brahmanistical thinking, but was very much prevalent in the minds of society at that time. So I find it hard to believe that Guru Ji, would need to reiterate what was the common thought about women anyway, especially when ALL the Gurus emphasized that men and women were equal and they elevated women's status beyond this thinking. Wouldn't that only serve to destroy the advances they previously made in this area? Since if we take the meaning to be as you say... a warning to men about women... then wouldn't that just put more negative thinking in men's minds about women, thereby destroying everything they did previously to elevate the status of women, by reinforcing the previously held notions about women being an obstacle to men's spirituality due to their immoral nature? Isn't that just Brahministical thinking resurfacing? Forgive me if I have said something wrong... I am not in any way attacking men... it just doesn't make sense to me . I am more inclined to believe and agree with what the OP has said about the deeper meaning and message that equality is what is required for society to advance.

You are right, I think this is maybe why most of us have had OBEs happen completely on their own, not by us trying to make them happen. OBEs are not the final destination, just a stop along the journey One that lets us know we are at least going in the right direction!

As I have been tying dastar all the time now and have been for awhile I am not sure how to go about logistics with something... for taking Amrit, I know the guys usually just part the top of their turban which is easy using the usual turban style like patiala style, where the top is literally only the first larh spread out and tucked in. I usually tie gol dastar, and so each layer that goes all the way over the top is so tucked in and there is so much bulk on top it would be impossible to part it to expose my kesh. For Amrit Sanchar should I just wear a chunni? I am not sure what the women do in this situation (or men who tie gol dastar or dumalla normally)... I don't really know how to tie a simple keski that can be parted as all the styles I know go over the top in the way a dumalla does making it impossible to pull out on top to expose the kesh. I will feel kind of 'naked' though with just a chunni... so not sure what to do. And it's coming up soon... so I need to figure out soon!

We are the act of the Creator experiencing itself through its own creation. Everything within that creation which has evolved over time, contains the divine light. Creation has evolved from mineral ==> plant ==> animal ==> human kingdoms. Only in the human form, does creation posses high enough consciousness in order to ask the very questions "Who am I?" and "Why am I here?" Hence, human form is our chance to realize the truth about who we are. Basically as far as reincarnation goes... in the traditional sense, as in one separate soul playing a kind of hop scotch between physical bodies, is not how I have come to see it. Yes we have been here before, and yes we are all here now.... but is there not just ONE actor who plays all these parts, in all these different costumes? Is this ONE actor, not also the director of this play we call reality? (see SGGSJ P 736.) We need to stop thinking in terms of 'I' vs 'You'. At the base of reality there is only awareness... and there is only ONE awareness. That awareness is you / me / everyone. 'I' am not 'Satkirin' - I am the consciousness who is aware of Satkirin. Every animal, and every human are animated by the same divine light... the same 'doer' is behind all. It's one big dream of the Creator (just like when you dream at night, you are ALL of the characters even though they seem to be separate entities) Therefore, there is no issue with numbers of animals or humans... it becomes irrelevent.

Note: Admin Ji are we allowed to do this?? WJKK WJKF Being a dastaar tying Singhni... I am always interested in the different styles and even all the different types of dumalla etc. (I wish we had turban competition etc here as I think in its own way it's an art and is an expression of the person who ties it as they are all different) I also wish more females tied them... I usually tie gol dastaar since it's fairly easy but if you can believe it, this photo was my very first attempt at tying a dumalla style. I had extra white material which was longer, and I use dumalla width anyway so I thought I'd give it a try... Its the same photo in my profile pic, but you can see it larger here. If I have completely messed up dumalla, then pls let me know I used 8 meters here... so its not very full... but overall I think I got the style / shape correct. I am interested to see your dastaars! (You can blank out your face if you wish).

WJKK WJKF, Das Ji, you know its actually very strange, once I found Sikhi, I felt like I have done this all before... like it was not foreign to me at all. I have always been very spiritual right from birth. I can't explain, but I rejected Catholicism when I was only 8 years old... and my Father had actually studied to be a Catholic Priest before he decided he wanted a family instead... so you can imagine how religiously Catholic he actually was! But I knew my path was different. And I started to have OBEs happen on their own at age 8... that same point in time. But I had other things happen even younger. I have had instances where in meditation, I can actually 'see' pretty much physical see but with my eyes closed another place. I focused until it was clearer. I have done this on numerous occasions... I think it maybe remote viewing?? But the OBEs I know for sure because they happened so often. I know without any doubt that the physical is not all there is. I have felt during simran the ONEness of everything... I can't even explain... like I still retain knowledge of who I am physically but I just felt like connected to everything... and not just everything but everywhen too... Its so hard to put into words. And I have a feeling like the truth is only barely out of reach... like I can almost touch it its so close... but there is only some very thin veil preventing me from seeing it in it's entirety. So I think I was in fact on this path before... perhaps I was also a male and not female... because I just do not feel the typical nurturing that most women have. I have never been attracted to babies.... or domestic work. On the other hand I feel completely at home with jobs where I am the one doing the protecting (military), even my volunteer work in the community where I basically respond to medical emergencies at community events. I have an affinity for jobs that are high adrenaline like fire fighting (which I have to do in the Navy) and sea survival, and damage control on board ship. I actually became one of the very first women to qualify to serve on submarines in Canada, and I am still only one of a few in the entire world who can do this. Yet I feel awkward around children, and find it hard to explain things to them, but teaching classes in the military where there is a set discipline I feel at home. I think inside I am male... do you think its possible? That I retained the male energy and even though I have a female body I somehow never got the female energy?? No matter what I am... it's exactly how Waheguru wanted me to be... everything is his Hukam... Either way, for Amrit... it was never a question... something much greater than myself is orchestrating it... there was never any question of doing it or not... it was just a matter of when and how to get somewhere where there were more than only a couple of Amritdharis available. I feel like someone else is the 'doer' and I am just going along with it like its supposed to happen. Does it make sense? btw I still like being female too... we have nicer clothes hehe. btw I am really enjoying this forum as I am deeply into the spiritual interpretation of Gurbani. Even if we disagree on some minor points like Panj Pyare, but we both have the choice to take Amrit from whatever Jatha or group we want. So if you feel you need 5 men, then you are free to do it from a group who does that. While I am free to take it from a group who allows both male and females. Like you said, its not just the Amrit sanchar anyway... and taking Amrit is only one step. I intend to take my journey all the way this lifetime if its at all within my possibility. I have a deep longing I can not explain, to realize my true self... like I have amnesia, and want so badly to wake up. This feeling is with me every single day. Gurfeteh!

I am not sure what you are saying then? I was generalizing because the stories in dasam granth in my opinion were more about the situation those women were thrust into, where they obviously felt for some reason they could not obtain what they wanted without somehow influencing the men. The only conclusion is that they were somehow in a subordinate position where they had no authority to make things happen on their own. The only other way to look at those stories is what they appear to be saying on the surface... that women are inherently vile and deceiving and immoral. So I am not sure what you are trying to say... that the women in dasam granth in those stories were in that position because it was best for society? But, if they were happy and had their full needs met and their voices heard, they would have no need to influence anyone, lease of all by using sex. So are you saying that dasam granth is instead saying what it appears outright? That women are vile and immoral? Forgive me Das Ji... I am just trying to understand your views on the chritropakhyan... because that is what I was trying to generalize. Unlike many women who can't see past the apparent sexism in this writing, I tried to look past it and see the metaphor, refusing to believe that Guru Ji would think of me as inherently immoral and vile and deceiving. (because I am none of those things.... I am not perfect... far from it, but I do try to maintain high morals.)

Ji I am not saying that men don't have issues... I am just saying that women certainly are not happy in these situations which themselves are lopsided. It was suggested that women want to be in these situations... no I don't think anyone (male or female) actually wants to be dominated. I know the men under Sharia suffer too... just not anywhere the amount of suffering the women are subjected to. (as an example a charge of adultry or suspicion of adultry often ends up the woman is executed where the man is not - yes sometimes both are killed... but more often the woman is honour killed.) The system itself is flawed that's why I said how can it be benficial at all to society?? And no I do not think all men are out to demean women that is silly thinking. I am not a man hater... contrary to what you think! You have me all wrong... I know plenty of men (Sikhs and non-Sikhs even some Muslims) who treat women as equals and see them as equals. It was generalization of those situations...

WJKK WJKF Das Ji, I agree with vast majority of what you said... except that Panj Pyare today are not a mere reenactment of the original five. Or else the castes that were not included in the original five would also be excluded now (as caste and gender are seen in same light - as you said both are created differences in this world only.) I appologize I made a mistake on the original 5 castes earlier when I said Jatt was not in original five... anyway you got what I meant I hope (note: original five were: khatri, jatt,water carrier, clothes washer, or barber. What about a Chumar (shoe maker) or Tarkhan?). If the Panj Pyare now must be an exact replica of the original (as you said, Guru Ji did not call a chumar or tarkhan and he could have), then we cant treat gender any different than caste, and so those castes that were not in the original five would also need to be excluded as well... but they are not. And nobody disputes them being able to at all. It's only gender that is disputed. And then following on as exact replica of the original event if that's what we are doing, we should also include a Singhni to take the part of Mata Ji putting the patashes in the amrit. But we don't... Why is that?? Panj Pyare should not be chosen based on gender, or any other physical attribute. They should be the five most spiritually active members in the sangat, and there is an exact process that is actually used. If those five are all men, then fine, if they are women, fine, if they are a mixture then fine... But let's say a small sangat only has a few Amritdhari members, a few men and a few women. Let's say the women are far more spiritually active then the men... is it right to choose the less spiritually active males over the women who are har more spiritually active (perhaps some males who don't even take their Amrit commitment seriously) simply because they are male? I think that would be doing a disservice since Amrit is by its nature a very spiritual experience. But Amrit Sanchar is not about the phsyical at all. And if Guruji intended for women not to participate as Khalsa (where men / women would fight side by side equally) then women would never have been given Amrit at all. Because the entire Khalsa is supposed to fight... not just the Singhs. It wasn't only Panj Pyare that were to be his army, but the entire Khalsa panth and that includes women, so I don't believe it had to do with physical strength at all. Anyway, I agreed with most of what you said about the planes, due to some experiences first hand, I know that we as humans co-create our own reality. Maybe more women need to stand up for ourselves instead of feeling like victims and then we will start to be seen more in that light? (btw I think I said in the other thread I am career military... and I'm only 5'2" tall and not afraid to fight for what is right and to defend.) I was just trying to offer my views on why possibly more examples were used in Dasam Granth of women acting like that, when we know that males generally speaking are the more sexual gender. It didn't add up right, unless you take their situation into account. Then you begin to see that its not about the women... or the nature of women... if Guru Ji did write it, it was about the human power struggle and lack of equality that causes these things to happen. That's all.. I was trying to see past the overtly sexist (at first glance) writing.

Try telling that to women who are executed for 'suspicion' of adultry - even though in most cases she did nothing. Or honour killings... or being beaten in public by Mutaween for simply being in public without a male 'guardian' (keeping in mind a widowed woman with no son has nobody who could even act as mahram for her meaning she is a prisoner in her own home and unable to even obtain basics of food, clothing etc.) Or tell that to the young girl who was shot by Taliban for simply going to school... do you really think these women and girls like the situation they are in? How in any way possible is that constructive for society as a whole (in history or now)? Of course they are... as humans we are equal and so we are equally capable... but it's just that in Dasam Granth, women are used way more in the examples. It doesn't make sense since generally speaking, we know biologically, women have an easier time to control lust than men... and that it's usually men doing the seducing and not the other way round (not an attack on men at all... its just biology that they want it more) so to have an entire section in Dasam Granth apparently stating the opposite just doesn't make sense...unless it's speaking of specific circumstances. And yes in certain circumstances, women who are dominated into subservient roles by men, can and do use the one thing that men want more, as a means to get their own needs met. It's the only bargaining chip they have in that situation...it's an examination of that circumstance rather than women in general. And as was stated in the OP the answer is equality between gender, which has always been the teaching in Sikhi. So when we examine that specific situation and circumstance, the seeming disagreement between DG and SGGSJ is rectified... because the teachings of the Gurus has always been that women are equal in all respects to men and deserve equal opportunity.

Of course it will always be the ones feeling the restrictions placed on them who dislike it lol. We would never assume that the ones doing the oppressing are not enjoying their position? As for the original topic... It would be very difficult to believe that Guru Ji would write something intending to paint a picture of women as vile, impure, immoral creatures with intentions that it would be used to further subordinate women beneath men, Especially when all of the Gurus put so much emphasis on elevating the status of women as equal to men. The very words 'allow' or 'disallow' used in context to women with regards to seva etc imply outright that women are beneath men... Since men are doing the allowing and disallowing. The Gurus gave women equal status but then this work is used as justification to further lower their status... Simply that interpretation must be wrong. The women in those stories were all using what means they had in order to influence the men. But why were they even in a position to need to influence someone in that way? If they had equal status, they wouldn't need to use other means to get what they wanted. And as a human being they were just as entitled to have their needs and desires met as the men... So it was the men subduing them that caused that to happen. Given equal rights as the Gurus gave to women, women will be brave warriors and fight loyally alongside the men. Again I can't say for sure that Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually wrote 'all' of Dasam Granth... Certainly some of it can be attributed to him but much of it is in debate. Either way I did my best to look past the apparent sexism and see a positive message for women when it seems to be saying that women are vile temptresses. Guru Ji would never say that....

Nobody should ever be oppressed in the name of culture. The difference with kesh is that it's a choice nobody is forcing someone to keep it. In the case of women being oppressed in overtly Muslim countries they can be killed for showing a stray hair. There's a difference.

Easy... it's called brainwashing and it IS wrong.

In the case of certain Muslim communities, its for good reason that they don't retaliate... if they do, they usually end up dead.

I don't believe anything actually leaves the physical body. You are just tuning into a different frequency. Nothing is leaving though... You are just shifting awareness to a different point. So all you are doing is focusing on a different level of reality. The radio concept is really the best way I can explain it... You are the antenna, your consciousness is the dial tuning into a particular frequency physical being lowest frequency. Your awareness just tunes into the next higher station but your physical body remains and the antenna is still receiving all the information from the physical channel... You just happen to be listening to a different station at the time.

This is extremely common and IS associated with an OBE. There are several types of OBEs... Etheric projection is the typical floating over your body and seeing the physical surroundings and astral projection is more dreamlike and mystical.. the surroundings in astral projection may not be exactly like physical surroundings and more dreamlike. Either way, the heavy feeling, unable to move like you are stuck in glue etc is very very common. It's like you are not totally disconnected from the physical so you are trying to control your subtle body and the message gets mixed between your physical body which is in a paralysis state and your subtle body... so it doesn't quite work. When you think of it all of reality is really vibration in a medium and the different levels are just different frequencies... I think of like a radio dial as I mentioned before... we are always receiving ALL transmissions, but we only tune into one 'station' at a time. In this case you are stuck somewhere on the dial between two stations, where you can hear a bit from both stations at once. That's the best way I can explain it if it makes sense... it does to me. In reality I believe nothing actually 'leaves' the body... you are just shifting awareness away from the physical to your subtle body which always exists anyway, its just that you are always tuned into the physical.

Fully agree... It's those who read it and immediately think it is saying women are impure and dirty and use it as justification to subdue women and put them into subordinate roles and control them... they are totally missing the point and actually causing the very thing it is warning against! When all humans contain the same divine light, and the same awareness, and same capacity for thought and desire to participate in society, then when any group are forced into subordinate roles by another, of course they will try to use what means they can in order to have their voice heard... even if it's through manipulation. Not just females in this position but slaves throughout history too... when they can't physically retaliate this is inevitable. It is an accurate depiction of society and power struggle for control over others and the damage it does. Equality of everyone is the only answer as N30 S!NGH pointed out. = It actually took me awhile to arrive at the same conclusion on my own (before I ever came to this site) but I had to get past what seemed like very sexist writing first. I think the point 'could' have been gotten across using more varied examples so it didn't put women into such spotlight... but maybe that was the point. Guru Ji wanted to elevate women to absolute equal status and so the situation needed to be exposed in it's full horror.

I had the kara made through sikhkaras.com You can take any of their styles and have it made in any metal (steel, white iron or sarbloh) and even with engraving if you wish... I only have a plain one edge thin kara with no engraving as I am a bit uneasy about wearing Gurbani (though I did custom order for a tiny bit heavier weight around 30g and in white iron. I also need a custom size because 6.4 is too large and 5.7 is a tad too tight for me... so I needed a 6.0 cm right in the middle of their XS and S) They were very helpful and I have had my kara on since it arrived and never took it off! This is the style I ordered: http://www.sikhkaras.com/karas/classic/clo-20/ You can order one edge, 5 lines, round etc in any sort of weight up to several hundred grams. And all of them can be made in white iron or sarbloh instead of steel. Their karas may cost a bit more than usual but they are finished very professionally... not that I care about the looks but the inside against my wrist is very smooth, no sharp edges etc.

I am so glad to read this... I just got into a spiritually draining topic on another Sikh forum where most of the members are very athiestic in their interpretation of Gurbani. Any reference to 'reincarnation' to them means simply states of mind and vast majority of them even deny the existence of a creator... instead redferring only to 'creation' with no conscious creator. I tried and tried to explain to them these same things about reality being dream of Waheguru Ji, everything being ONE and that our true nature is nonphysical / spiritual (and even backed up with quantum physics), but most of them believe that this physical life is 'it' and nothing exists beyond. I don't know how they can call themselves Sikhs since they even called me hateful for stating simply that they were atheistic in their views. IMO that interpretation turns Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji into merely a psychology book on how to get along with the neighbours. They actually became so defensive and accusing and mean that they drove me away from that forum completely.