singho

One of an ever-growing list of irrefutable facts you have to keep up with Mr Singh. :roll:

w-bol thank you for 'sharing' that diatribe with us here, but to be honest I'm being very kind by entertaining your odious brand of bigotry, racism and Islamophobia by keeping up this discussion with you here as if you had the common manners of an ordinary person when in fact you don't, and I hope you appreciate my generosity and patience. I don't care whether you're a particularly credulous fanatic with your absurdly exaggerated ghost stories and make-believe, or whether you like to pass racist comments like 'Paki' to make yourself feel like a brave 'Singh' (a Farsi i.e. a Persian word FYI, as is 'khalsa'), but I think your comments do speak volumes about your level of intelligence and your education, or rather your lack thereof. May I suggest you try sikhsangat.com instead? If you want to stay here and discuss this civilly under Formal Debates section then try to answer my post. Here: So Sikh has nothing to say on the matter of prostitution, hence the Islamic or Indian brahmanical law takes precedence, right? (P.S. Read the rules on Formal Debates section before posting here again)

My apologies if I inadvertently causing offense with my remarks. Truly, if you read my post again you will see that there is no offensive remark about Baba Nanak. However, it does seem strange to say that Satguruji was not also a human being. Alternative view does exist but that doesn't mean there is conflict. 'Baba Nanak Shah Fakir, Hindu Ka Guru, Mussalman Ka Pir' I believe this quotation represents the mainstream position. I am not making assertions about mundane hierarchies of 'higher' or 'lower', just merely trying to have a coherent discussion with w-bol about Iran, with some sense of continuity. Perhaps a separate thread can be made to discuss Satguruji in the context of Shia-Sikh?

Kavita that is a very interesting fact about the Sikh rule in India.. thank you. Cutting a Sikh's kesh is to cause a very grave injury, you are right. It is indeed gratifying when a sister takes objective perspective on cultural relativism. w-bol it is becoming apparent that you are incapable of addressing any of the issues raised in this discussion in a rational, coherent manner. Instead of facts and logic, you have to resort to unsubstantiated emotive comments without a shred of proof to support your vehement anti-Iran anti-Shia position. This brings to mind the old adage: 'empty bottles make the most noise'. So perhaps you are beginning to realise now, that your position is untenable. As Niranjana said, nobody cares about personalities here. Instead, it is becoming interesting the way you are consistently avoiding the issue of the sigheh unions, and even the existence of the pro-women's movement in Iran headed by Shirin Ebadi. You tell me: if it's so bad in Iran, then how come he hasn't been taken out of circulation? After all, this is what you say happens to any Iranian in Iran who speaks ill of the Iranian regime. On the matter of the rule in Iran, and the way the rules are selected and enforced, this has nothing to do with people 'forcing' anyone to act according to their will, like you said. Rather, it is the rules of Islam as revealed by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and his family. So, these rules come from God and not from man. My question to you: what position does Sikh take on prostitution? You accept that prostitution is bad thing - fine. In the western countries, it is not tolerated. It is punished by imprisonment and fines. So, in the Sikh scriptural or doctrinal authority, is there any document concerning the way prostitutes are to be dealt with? Is it an offense to Sikh and if so what is the penalty? IF there is no Sikh reference dealing with the matter of prostitutes, then which law will you refer to? Surely, given that Satguru Nanak Dev ji was a Sufi, and the khalsa an institution belonging to a wider network of similar including Shia, the answer is: the law of God as revealed in the Holy Qu'ran to the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) concerning the ways in which men and women are to be treated? Do you at least accept this?

Is this what you call 'freedom'? Freedom to get druink in public in the middle of the night, and to use prostitutes? So because there is all-night boozing in UAE, and prostitution, you won't say anything bad about UAE? Anything bad that happens because of an abuse of power in UAE you will turn a blind eye to, because they don't care if you're an alcoholic kerb crawler? Is that all it takes to buy your loyalty? I think I know exactly where you're coming from. By implication perhaps you would be happy for your daughter or sister to be a prostitute 'where many whites live', because that's freedom isn't it? As I said in the other thread, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) always acted honourably in his dealings with women, and following his example, so this type of conduct is not allowed in Iran. FYI even in the western countries, prostitution is illegal.

Except reggae. :-P

w-bol please try to understand that freedom does exist in Iran. Iran is a free country. In fact freedom does not exist in the Western countries that you love so much. Iran is the one and only place where the law and tradition of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) - who always acted with honour toward women - is observed in full. Iran formally recognises the ways of the Prophet (PBUH). I have already mentioned to you the institution of sigheh, which affords couples legal, financial and health protections for the duration of their unions. This is but one of many examples of the ways in which the dignity and honour of the human being is being preserved by the Islamic Republic of Iran which formally enshrines the way of life prescribed by the Prophet (PBUH). Indeed, the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH), and his laws, are for the benefit of all mankind including yourself. You would do well to learn more about the life of the Prophet (PBUH), and to try to observe some of his teachings yourself, concerning the way in which women are to be regarded and treated. Have some respect please.. the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH) , who lived a faultless existence, exist for your benefit, so learn them and don't criticise them. The Iranian regime exists to advance the cause of the Prophet, for the greater benefit of people such as yourself who know no better than to indulge all manner of licentiousness in the name of 'freedom' which is no 'freedom' but rather a fraud that turns the free man into a slave and the human being into a depraved animal. Stop and consider the Holy Qu'ran, before you respond to this. Perhaps this is the time for you to read it for yourself.. So, please keep your opinions in perspective. We have already covered the ground of the 16-year old girl who was hanged, and your memory must be very short for this is the third time I am mentioning it. As Javanmard explained before you had him banned, the decision to hang this girl was reviewed both politically and judicially in a process instigated by Shirin Ebadi, a prominent human rights lawyer in Iran himself! So please stop your lies about the possibility of being persecuted for writing bad things about Iran, if you live in Iran. Shirin Ebadi has been a vocal advocate of human rights and is a fierce critic of the maverick judge who sentenced the girl.

Yes - my mistake. But Shiva is also said to be sky-clad. Digambara?

@Niranjana: Sorry - I hang around SikhAwareness to try to find out more information from yourself and others on this subject and many others. Chandi Charittar is about Chandi, but I thought as Shiva is the giver of boons invoked by Ram, etc. then it makes sense to read 'Deh Siva' as a reference to the male Shiva. On the matter of the neelakantha attribute, this appears in several south Indian strotrams and seems to have been a folk belief that originated in the Puranic times. A South Indian pundit would know more, as would a Sanskrit scholar such as JM.

Sure thing. I find the following article persuasive concerning both the numerous references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib to Shiva and as to what 'Shiva' is supposed to mean or represent (i.e. lingam is jyotir-lingam): http://www.gurbani.org/webart147.htm Therefore I hold that Sri Guru Granth Sahib acknowledges the existence of Shiva, by refering to Shiva. The definition of 'Shiva' has remained fluid and adaptable through the millenia, and is likely to remain so. The phrase 'Namah Sivaya' was said to have been an invocation of all that's 'good' rather than a personal deification in itself originally, and is a recurrent Vedic theme. Guru Gobind Singh's writings in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib also refer to Shiva ('Deh Shiva bar mohe' etc.)., and so I think there are good grounds to assert that Guru Gobind Singh actually invoked Shiva. On the subject of the nihang Singhs, from what I understand in my conversations with them, they have an ancient oral tradition that every detail of the dress of the nihangs (including kesh that holds the Ganga) is supposed to represent Shiva. Puranic Shiva is 'neelakantha' which traditionally means 'naked' as per the sadhus and Udasis, but whch literally means 'blue-clad' (the sky is blue too). So, to me it seems that various groups have an honest claim to representing the form of Shiva. On Shiva representing the patrilineage of a person, this is a difficult subject which touches at the soul of Indian civilisation. In Indian tradition, your gotra comes from your father, not your mother, and it defines who you are, what your beliefs and practices and duties are. So, in some traditional circles, the worship of Shiva is associated with honouring the ancestors.

That is indeed an eye-opener... It just goes to show that there's a lot of demonizing going on in all the media right now, and much of it is very misleading.

That article is just anti-Muslim propaganda. It says a woman's purpose in life is to raise more Muslims... and this affects her health from having so many children, etc. It justs uses selective quotations from a number of sources to support an anti-Islam position. Nothing short of eradicating Islam (which he says is inherently the cause of all these alleged problems) from the face of the earth would satisfy that writer. It's just a magazine article or editorial review designed to fill a page on a slow week. Iran has more females in higher education than males. So painting it with the Taleban brush doesn't apply.

Iran is a theocracy. The real question is: why do you want to do those things in the world's only Shia Islamic theocracy? Is it to provoke people or cause disruption? Is there ANY Sikh religious source that says you have to do these public displays? Why should the whole world accommodate your colossal ego? Such disruptive parades should be banned in UK, USA, Canada in my view. Are you sure you're allowed to wear a kirpan outside your clothes in Canada? Is it a kirpan if it is not a weapon (i.e. you're not allowed to use it even in self-defense)? Yes it's OK in Iran but keep it under your clothes unless you like to cause confusion and misunderstanding. Is a radio station now on your list of religious 'rights' too? Do you think calling it a 'Gurbani' radio station gives you unlimited license to play propaganda and double-glazing/carpet adverts to all and sundry, to a simple looped accompaniment, all over the world all day long? We have plenty of such radio stations here in UK. People using 'Gurbani' to take refuge, while spouting diatribe. This is what's so attractive about Iran. You don't get Sikh knocking on your door wanting to stand for local elections, collect for gold-plated dome on gurdwara building (line a dome or a pocket - whatever), and spewing mindless unresearched PROPAGANDA (your word not mine) to brainwash otherwise right-thinking people who are far better off without their brand of Sharia-Maryada Sikhi. The Iranian people are far more sophisticated than that. If there was someone erudite and sophisticated enough to inform the Iranian people about Gurbani, people like you would have had him pelted with rocks and driven out of the community by now... I'm not going to spell out what a documentary source is, but a few journalistic articles Googled up from the net citing no stats on any authority mean nothing and carry no weight. They are not even tertiary sources, but are mere conjecture and personal opinion about Islam and Iran from people who have never been there, in most cases. Look here now, I've answered your questions. Now go back and answer MY questions about what you want to do, that's prohibited by the 'Moral Police'. Address the matter of the definition of 'moral' and 'immoral' in Iran. Then address the matter of sigheh. I'm being patient with you here. This isn't Sikhsangat so being hysterical is not any indication that you are a good-Sikh or anything like that (actually we don't care if you're the opposite).

There is a law against co-habiting unmarried couples. However, because of sigheh, this law does not impinge on anyone's freedom in any way. In fact, it PREVENTS the problem of rape which is endemic in modern India. That's because every sigheh is registered with the authorities, just like a marriage certificate. So, if your partner consents, then you are free to do what you want behind closed doors. I would support a motion to introduce an equivalent to the sigheh in Western countries, as it not only protects against rape and other unions where one party lacks capacity to consent, but it also protects your wallet. Gold-diggers are not attracted by sigheh, and there is no chance of them taking a share of your estate upon break-up. Given that there is sigheh in Iran, what's the problem exactly? Do you want to stalk and rape strangers at night? If no, then what's the beef? What is it that you might want to do in Iran, that makes you fear the 'moral police'? Do you want to molest girls on the train or something? If you're homosexual, then did you know that there has never been a case in Iran where someone has been convicted solely on the basis of homosexual acts? That's despite the fact that homosexuality is an offence. Iran is a very tolerant place in practice, but the difference with some other places is that you can't treat it like a red-light district because it's not. Iran has a culture which values respect, honesty and diversity. Like I said, it's an ancient culture and it has its rules. Rules are what makes 'civilisation'. Under the Iranian criminal justice system, rape itself is referred to as an 'immoral act'. It's semantics: moral police versus immoral acts. The government and judiciary in Iran are highly complex systems, with complex interdependencies. Iran is nothing like Iraq. The only person who thinks it is, is you. And it's safe to walk the streets at night in Iran, unlike India. So far you have come up with at most 2 examples of injustices having been commited by the legal system in Iran, including the instance of the 16-year old girl hanged from a crane. Javanmard helpfully explained the actions taken against the judge responsible for that decision, but you had him banned. This story of the 16-year old girl is all over the media, but the judicial and political review following that event is not. This here is SikhAwareness and we are interested in knowing about Iran, Shirin Ebadi and the real nature of the Iranian regime. We are less interested in your personal opinions. It is indeed disappointing that all you seem to have to offer us is hatred, and that you have not once cited any of the many documentary sources concerning the matters under discussion here.

w-bol please restrict yourself to addressing the matters under discussion if indeed you are capable of rational debate, and refrain from making baseless allegations about me being someone else. I am not Javanmard. FYI, in Iran the institution of sigheh is common and widespread. It means that couples can formally commit themselves to each other in a monogamous relationship for a finite period of time, without the complication of going through divorce procedures. Effectively, it means that if a man and a woman are attracted to each other and both give their mutual consent, they can enter into sexual relations without breaking any laws and without inviting the attention of state officials. You obviously don't have a clue about Iran to think this is 'pure BS'. I suggest you read this: http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/tmpmrig.htm On the other matter of the Punjabi fellow I saw in the subway, I aver that this is the truth. I saw it with my own eyes, in the light of day. The guy noticed me, but didn't seem even slightly ashamed. IN FACT HE WAVED. This is what much of Indian society is like. Important exception: high caste people and Parsis. I would have liked to have given him a kicking for waving at me while doing that, but I didn't want to become impure and unclean like he obviously was. I was singularly unimpressed. The streets of Iran, unlike the parts of London frequented by certain sections of the Indian community, are clean. Now YOU tell ME: How safe is it for couples to go through the villages in India without being raped??? Honest answer please.

Supposing for just a second that this misconstrued Tantrik interpretation of Shiv-ling is the only widely acknowledged version (which isn't true, but anyway). What would be so shocking about that?? Surely if you're shocked by this, it means you would be happier in Iran, which according to you is a bastion of 'moral' sexual repression? Doesn't SGGS acknowledge Shiva? And Guru Gobind Singh exhorts Shiva? And nihang Singh is image of Shiva? And Shiva in form your described represents your father's line? At least Iran is free from such hypocrisy...

w-bol in London I have seen a Punjabi new arrival type drop his pants in a subway in a busy urban area, and use it as a toilet. He didn't care who was watching. Obviously this guy was not a Brahmin.. So you tell me which is better now - Iran or India?? Right at this present moment in time. From Iran, land of Aryans, we derive the notion of purity and cleanliness which is the basis for Vedic Brahmanism too. Purity and cleanliness is purely an Iran-Aryan concept which spread eastward to India in Vedic times. But which is now forgotten in modern India? So being completely objective, and ignoring the strained diplomatic relations with European countries and USA for the time being, Iran wins hands down against Pakistan and India. Who cares about alliances which will all reverse in due course anyway? The people of Iran have some humanity and compassion. Contrary to what you're saying the girlfriend-boyfriend relationships in Iran are very common, and fit inside a cultural framework involving vows being consenting adults. Your perspective on Iran is very skewed. Persia is an ancient civilisation. On human rights, respect for life, forward-thinking and democratic values, India has nothing to say to Iran.

Is that in the capacity of a serving police officer mate? The reason I ask is that I think the Home Office immigration people take a different view of the vast majority of asylum claims from Iran and, especially, India. But I think the UK police are more sympathetic when forming personal opinions about such claims, perhaps. Are you still on 'the force'?

http://www.nickfleming.com/Podcasts/Podcas...r_the_Dead.html Wow. 10ft tall! And this is the same region that Homo Erectus is supposed to have lived in, supposed extinct, but possibly assimilated into more modern people? Who knows?

Wahegurubol I think you should just hear him out and read his considerable research on the subject of the Sikh-Shia connection. He is a scholar in the Sikh classical tradition and a Western academic too. What has happened here today on this forum is just a personal conflict. These things happen all the time, and in a few days nobody will remember it, but unfortunately in this case it has resulted in a tremendous loss to the forum. What is different about Javanmard from other scholars is that the truth itself is of a very high value to him. It matters to him, if he perceives that people are misled on something of importance. Frankly, your perspective seems to me to be quite conditioned and reactionary in some ways, so I would have been interested to read more on what he and you had to say in your interaction. In addition, I cannot support the idea of censorship here. This is one of the better Sikh forums and generally we see the full spectrum being expressed here. Therefore I hope he's coming back.

Dear shaheediyan, I think you have misunderstood me. I was referring to a time well before the modern era and the Gurus, when the two great powers India and Persia were inextricably locked together. India has had many great dynasties, including the Mauryan Empire of Chandragupta Maurya and then Ashoka. Persia has the great Emperor Cyrus, and his cylinder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Cylinder) Subsequently the enlightened Emperor Xerxes, and his alliance of tribes as diverse as South Indians (Dravidians) and Ethiopians, against the Spartans. And way before all that, when the Aryan people brought their language and culture intact from Persia. The influence and respect for humanity of the ancient culture of the mighty Persian people and their race, is what I admire. To me, our Gurus were trying to show a way BACK to that state of unity, brotherhood, tolerance and understanding. Regardless of your views about the current Iranian regime (and I don't want to share my opinion on that) I find it striking the way that every Iranian person I have spoken to has been knowledgable, polite and respectful regarding the Punjab, Sikhs and India generally. The Zoroastrian religion carries remnants of traditions of cleanliness, purity and NOBLE conduct which finds exact parallels in ancient Vedic religion (Brahmanism) and which survives to the present day in the teachings of the Gurus. I feel that Javanmard is best placed to provide relevant information to us, so that we may each come to our own understanding based on our intellectual capacities. My sincere wish is for a strong and brotherly alliance between the Persia and the India. I would like to see both these powers come back as the champions of philosophy, science and human rights that they once were. I don't know about the bad language on this forum. It does happen from time to time, so I don't find it a big deal, but disclosing PMs publicly as wahegurubol has done is, as you have rightly pointed out in the past, a breach of etiquette that reflects badly.

I fully concur with everything Javanmard has said, and fully echo his sentiments regarding Iran and India. India would indeed benefit considerably from being a part of a greater Persian confederacy. Furthermore it is a duty for every right-thinking individual to challenge institutions such as female infanticide and foeticide and cultural revisionism with the vigour exhibited by Javanmard here on this forum. Sadly we see too many apologists or downright apathy concerning the problem that is modern India. I am disgusted by the attitude displayed by wahegurubol here. Are we now supposed to lie about the origins of the Punjabi language and pretend the Guru Sahiban made it up?? This is ridiculous. And apart from Punjabi language, the Indian subcontinent has drawn from Persian culture for millenia. If we wanted to know more about this, we could ask Javanmard. We could, but now we can't, because he's banned because some unknown guy called wahegurubol who thinks the Gurus created Punjabi language feels offended?? Unbelievable.

If their deaths are unaccounted then how can you or anyone else know that 5 or 6 people have consistently fallen from the tower to their deaths every day for 200 or 240 days? What is the evidence for this? Are we to believe that the main contractor, the sub-contractors, the workers themselves, the public health and safety officials, the police, ambulance service, hospitals, coroners and mortuaries are all involved in a conspiracy to cover up the alleged death toll of 1200 and rising?

Yes, I saw that one. Found the photo on another forum, and thought it was pretty funny so I posted it here.

[center:6cd9893050][/center:6cd9893050] "If you wanna be one of the non-conformists, all you have to do is dress just like us and listen to the same music we do."