navjot2

how am i supposed to answer such an obvious question without being patronising? SIVA= SIHARI -SASSA-VAVVA SIVAA= SIHARI- SASSA-VAVVA-KANNA (like i already explained)

there you go Matheen!

so you can read Gurbani eh? welldone! So you know that theres only one 'S' sound, unlike in Devanagri? Very good! So you also know that the word that has been used has a 'kanna' (half line vowel sign) so the word is actually Sivaa? If you want to know how 'S' becomes 'Sh' go ask your 'santhia' masters at your taksalis who are teaching people such things. By the way the first post is saying some text came out of nowhere recently with new information not me.

when was 'before Durga'? And this same Shivaa (and for third time its Shivaa not Shiva) is living on Mount Kailash and rides a lion. Have you even looked at Chandi di Vaar? Durga- Hindus would say Durga will always be there too, dont you think?

Oh so now Mahdeo is a reference to the 'Hindu' Shiva yet Shivaa isnt 'Hindu' Durga? How strangely selective! so it refers only to a Hindu Deva when it suits your argument? By the way, are you aware that Sadashiv is actually a single word? Some people think the word 'sada' is seperate as in 'continuous', but how do they know it is not the word 'Sadashiv' being used here? And the Shiva you think is being descrbied in Chandi di Vaar is Akal and is someone different from the Shiva mentioned elsewhere in Gurbani? Strange! And how do you determine which is which? Whatever suits your fancy? -- What you quoted also- Yes those words refer to Krishna. Otherwise how is Akal Purakh, who I assume is Nirgun, being described as with a Flute (murraray) or the slayer of demon Madhu? Isnt that sakhi fo Krishna slaying Madhu?... Is it perhaps that It is Akal who is in Essence Krishna? And vice versa? GASP! Words like Madhusudan and Krishan Murraray refer specifically to Krishna. This may not make sense to you but is a Vaishnava reads it they will get it straight away that it refers to Akal. Only they call It Krishna. You and your ideological buddys may be fixated on the word 'Akal' but Gurus weren't. sorry. the truth is that there is more than one way of looking at things. 'aapay ek aapay anek'. You people want to formulate an conceptual God in order to feel self satified but it seems to me that Gurbani warns us about trying to limit God to anything. -- First you are saying that Shivaa is refering to Akal Purakh and not Durga even though it is a name of Durga and in the text Itself it describes this same 'Shivaa' living on mount Kailash, who rides a lion. So you cannot run away that this Shivaa is that same Chandi who is wielding the sword (i.e. Durga). To Hindus Durga is: 1. union of shiva and shakti (where Shiva means Akal and Shakti means power of nature) 2. the protector of the Devas (which is what is happening in the story- Indra has sought out a Devi named who lives on Mount Kailash). 3. Power of Shiva (what you call Akal). (That is my understanding anyway). So you can say make up whatever little explanations you want (which frankly anyone can do, be they RSS, Kala Afghana, Charlie Chaplins descendents etc etc) it doesnt mean anything. Saying that Durga, Chandi etc are in essence forms of Akal Purakhs splendour is not something I am argueing with. but whereas I see it as marvellous you appear to see it in some bigoted fashion. You can selectively quote from the Dasam Granth all you want. I can do the same. so you can spare me your 'quoting' games.

are you denying he used the word Sivaa?

So you hardly know the histroy of zafarnama as your top line indicates. You are a google scholar oterhwise you would have known what is the link of zafarnama with Bhai mani singh ji. Bhai mani singh compiled a combined bir of SGGS and Dasam granth. Since zafarnama was written after compilation of hazuri bir, it was included in Bhai mani singh's bir. Zafarnama is also mentioned in rehtanamas. At least that guy gives details. You are just giving me some fairy story about what Bhai Mani Singh did without any explanation. Am i reading this right? Are you saying that Zafarnama was written after the 'Hazuri Bir' so some sikh at some popitn just added it to it? good for you! but this has not value to this discussion at all.

It makes me laugh to see people on this board so liberally quote Gurbani or Dasam Granth. The fact is that minus the English translation, you people wouldnt even touch it. You wouldnt have even half a leg to stand on. You do not even know how accurate the English translaion would be. You people all the time act as if you knwo alot more than you really do Who/what is Chandi do you know? Do you know what Durga is in essence? i suggest you try and understand the idea od Shiva/Shakti. for the second time, it says SIVAA not Siva. ਸਿਵਾ . This clearly refers to the central character of this text, Chandi di Vaar, whos is Chandi Herself. Now you go ask a Durga devotee/pundit who Sivaa is and he will tell you its a name of Durga. So now the question arises who is Durga (in relation to Siva)?

please spare me your crap, Mr 'Google Scholar'. You cannot talk straightforwadly so run to making bitchy aside comments. Why is your argument that weak? Like your ideological brothers used to admin cut about McLeod. Funny they couldnt right anything half as clear? Heres some more Google reading for you too: 1. whats this stuff about Bhai Mani Singh recording Zafarnamah? How did the Zafarnama, in its present form, reach us? Original letter written in the hand of Guru Ji in not available. However it is said that a copy of Zafarnama, written in the hand of Guru Ji, was found with the Mahant of Patna Sahib in 1890 and one Babu Jagan Nath made a copy; this copy was somehow misplaced by him. Since Babu Jagan Nath was himself a scholar in Persian language, he could reproduce it from his memory and got it printed in Nagri Parcharni Patrika in Benaras. He is also believed to have sent a copy to Sardar Umrao Singh Shergill in Amritsar who is said to have given it to Khalsa college and which in turn reproduced in Makhz-e Twarikh Sikhan. In Punjab newspapers, it first appeared in the Khalsa Samachar of 16 July 1942. Then in 1944, Sardar Kapur Singh ICS published it in Urdu Ajit of Lahore under the heading "Fatehnama". It is quite possible that in the process of translations and publications of Zafarnama at different stages, some verses were not reproduced correctly and what we have today is not the original Zafarnama of Guru Ji in its entirety. The abrupt end of Zafarnama also indicates that it is not complete and that some verses have been left out. Objections raised by some scholars on the authenticity of a few verses may be viewed in this context. http://www.zafarnama.com/ at least that guy spelled it out clearly, unlike you. so whats your story? shall I go google it myself and save you the effort? 2. i didnt say Dasam Granth came into existance in 1800. (im not even anti- Dasam Granth btw). I am disputing the authenticity of so called historical texts that sudddenly show up. I am not disputing that Bhai Mani Singh maybe did compile Dasam Granth after Mahasamadhi of Guru Gobind Singh. But I am not a follower of Bhai Mani Singh sorry he wasnt a Guru. If you people want to follow him thats your choice. But you better clarify what is the work of Bhai Mani Singh and what was authorised by Guru Gobind Singh and stop misleading people. 3. What does this 'Guru Mata' stuff prove? That sikhs used to hold meetings? So everything the sikhs did in 1800 is correct?

NO. It is actually SIVAA (Shivaa). The long 'AA' sound implies it is Goddess Durga. You can make whatever petty squibles you want, saying 'oh its not Hindu God Shiva/Durga'. But the fact is that Guru used the word Sivaa. Not Vaheguru or Akal Purakh. If you cant even accept that what kind of 'sikh' are you?

bullshit. just looking for excuses. what has this got to do with what you are saying exactly? that theres no proof because the manuscipts were lost hence scholars shouldnt ask questions? bullshit. fyi it seems to me that most manuscipts were 'lost' in 1800s, not 1700s. look at the original Zafarnamah for example. now were they really lost or 'conveniently' misplaced? so funny how these thigns turn to show up with 'only parts remaining'? like they couldnt keep the whole thing safe but managed to grab a few pages? and this so called gursikh family decided only to realise it now? The Sodhis maintained the Adi Granth of Guru Arjan Dev up until now. please explain how. because their lineage wasnt mainstream sikh so werent persecuted? also dont forget that Sikhs werent persecuted in south india (Hazur district) or Bihar, were they?

can you explain what they said about hearing it?

i assumed sabad was another word for naam.

where did the rabab go? in panjab i mean!

he doesnt give much details ont hese texts, does he?

what constitutes 'shudh' in your opinion, and what doesnt? please specify

this guy just disappoeared!

khalsa fauj i assume you missed my last request? can you lay out some basics on your understanding of Gurbani grammar for me? i am interested to know peoples take on it example in this artical it is 'Guroo' as opposed to 'Guru'. does that differentiation mean difference in the word meaning also in Gurbani?

a book that came out of nowhere is proof? proof of what? funny no info on what this is where it came from who discovered it how its authenticated etc cant even access the image files

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why hasnt anyone answered? i thought you lot were really into steeks etc hey i personnally REALLY dont like steeks, but im sure theres lots online, from having browsed sikh sites in the past i presume you know about Guru Granth darpan? http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/ Fareedkot tika also well known: http://www.ik13.com/faridkot%20wala%20teeka.htm

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thanks Raagmala

wow thats interesting i can only recall having seen jot/deevaa (and even not that always) and pani at paaths. or even Guruduare. Coconut has ancient significance. is known as Sri Phala in Hindu lore. (Auspicious Fruit). what i have heard when Gurus passed Gurgaddi to next Guru the ascending Guru was to offer coconut and 'panch paisa' (five monnies) to residing Guru as diksha (initiation gift). so i assume coconut is seen as approved offering in religious ceremony of Sehaj Paath.