tonyhp32

It's strange how people who were faithful followers of Mohammed were assassinating each other only a few years later. The guy who broke down needs to get some perspective in his life Interesting how Abu Sufyan got his revenge against Mohammed through his grandson who killed Mohammed's grandsons. Mohammed destroyed all the idols in the Kaba which was a place of worship for the non-Muslims before Mohammed. Just my views.

SHAHJI You're becoming a caricature. Just as we can know of Spanish and Portuguese history which being able to speak Spanish or Portuguese so can you know Sikh history without knowing much Punjabi. The fact that your minority branch of Islam doesn't trust Abu Huraira is not relevant to the discussion. It was the Sunni branch that spread Islam with the sword in India so their view of the reliability of Abu Huraira is what is important and not the Shia view. If he persecuted the ahl u bayt it doesn't mean that he was unreliable, the majority of Mohammed's companions supported the Sunni version of the succession. Maybe in your version of Islam, Abu Huraira may be viewed as an enemy of Mohammed but the Sunnis don't see it that way. Therefore a majority of the Muslims view him as reliable. Your views are perhaps coloured by his subsequent non-support of the Shias. Killing 90% of a people is holocaust no matter how lightly you take it.

SHAHJI What do you call killing of around 90% of the population of Sikhs by the Mughals/Afghans? From many lakhs to just around 11,000 at one stage. Is that genocidal enough for you? That fact is that even if the verse had used Mohammed instead of Mahdeen you would have used some other wordplay in order to defend your prophet. What you find difficult is that there are people who do not see your prophet through the rose tinted glasses that you do. Contrary to your assertion that the massacres of Muslim invaders were against the teachings of Islam, they were clearly in line with the teachings of Mohammed. If rape occurred then it was easy to find justification through Mohammed who allowed his followers to rape captured women. I can paste the relevant hadiths but no doubt you will claim that it is a sunni hadith and you do not believe in it. The fact is that just as you claim that the hadith is not reliable, millions of Muslims throughout history have trusted this hadith and acted upon it. If you want to base your view about whether Islam was spread by the sword or not on your own personal version of Islam then that is a matter for you and your conscience. The relevant thing is that the Muslims who took part in the rape and pillage believed that they were following their prophet's example. They laid their trust in hadiths that justified their actions. The justification is there in the hadiths. The need for the papal bull was because the new testament contained the opposite of what the papal bull espoused. The fact that the bulls were needed clearly shows that these bulls were needed to convince the people who were to go and enslave the peoples of the Americas that their actions had been justified by the representative of God on Earth. In Islam there was no need for such bulls because anyone who had studied the Quran and Hadiths knew that it was justified to enslave non-Muslims. If millions were enslaved and taken to the Muslim lands so much so that the mountains in Afghanistan are called the Hindu Kush (killer of the Hindus), then the justification is there through Mohammed having allowed his followers to take slaves. You can write all you want and present Mohammed as some kind of Buddha figure spreading love and peace but the facts paint a different picture. Your presentation of the spread of Islam by these invaders as only some kind of looting expedition shows just how little you know about your new found religion. Part of the attraction of Islam to the first Muslims was the prospect of loot in this life and a orgiastic life in heaven should they die in the pursuit of that loot. The attraction of loot and the bandit mentality is clear to see in all the hadiths that relate to Mohammed's life in Medina. Even after his death it was the fact that his daughter Fatima could not get a part of Mohammed's loot in the form of land from one of the Caliphs that led to the schism in Islam. The invasions of the Arabs, Turks and Afghans were just a continuation of the career of Mohammed in attacking non-Muslims lands in order to take loot, slaves and commit rape. Whereas the Catholic church could easily accept guilt because in these enlightened times they understand that the bulls were totally out of line with the teachings of Jesus, the Islamic world cannot condemn the actions of the Ghaznis, Ghoris and Abdalis because that would mean they would also have to condemn the actions of Mohammed as well. Maybe this thread should be split as the arguments for Mahdeen being allogorical have been exhausted.

SHAHJI as always goes around in circles. Only he knows what Gurbani says and everyone else is wrong. Is your Nirmala Guru under whom you became a Nirmala wrong if he as the rest of the Sampardas believe, that Mahdeen is Mohammed? Strange how you who used to say that the Protestants were the worst Christians and Singh Sabha was an imitation of the Victorian protestant mentality yet now Catholics are the bad guys. Could it be that the Catholics were more avowed opponents of your desert religion than the Protestants? The Catholics in Spain achieved what many countries which had been invaded by Muslims could not. That is, they managed to wrest back their country and were able to expel the Muslims from their midst. A glimpse into what their history would have been like had they kept their Muslim population can be seen by the Madrid train bombings. Recently even some Pakistanis were caught planning attacks in Spain. Unfortunately the successor states of the Mughal empire could not achieve what Spain did and this is why we had to witness the Partition. Portugal as well as Spain is such a hotch potch of ethnicities that the funny thing is that SHAHJI could very well have Jewish ancestry, the ones whom he has to fight on the judgement day being guided by rocks and trees as to where the Jews are hiding! Ironic that his ancestors could well have been Jews forced to become closet Catholics because of the Inquestion and now thei descendant claims to be proud of his 'islamic' ancestors!

Wow from simply Bahadur Ali he now becomes Bahadur Ali SHAH! Such a meteoric rise! Anyway since most of the people referred to as SHAH in Punjab are Bania traders who uses all their guiles to sell substandard wares and with dodgy weights and measures hoodwink the simple people of Punjab, perhaps he has chosen his name wisely! As with the Bania traders of Punjab, our very own SHAHJI uses his self proclaimed scholarship to try and subvert three centuries of Sikh vidhaani and try and convince us that Mahdeen isn't his prophet. Let's look at his arguments (along with those of a similar viewpoint)-; 1. Mahdeen is not known in Arabic or any other middle eastern literature? As Shaheediyan has stated this, who are we to limit the words that maharaj can use or not use. Jaap Sahib is replete with description of God many of which are no doubt the first time that such descriptions have been used. As a supposed scholar, SHAHJI makes the mistake of a novice by failing to understand that with all writings belong to and make the most relevance to the people who read or heard them at that time. It is with this in mind that we can best understand them. Trying to find mahdeen in Arabic or other middle eastern literature is a fools search. What is important is what the people who listened to or read the texts at the time of its composition would have understood by it. SHAHJI has also made this mistake previously by saying TURK was a term used to describe a Muslim-Hindu combine against the Mughals and not as ALL Sikh vidhvans and historians have understood it to mean, namely that TURK and MUSLIM were interchangable terms. A reading of Gurbani and Sikh literature makes this quite clear but as with all self proclaimed scholars they need to put their own spin on a subject otherwise they will just regurgitate the works of previous scholars. With the above in mind then it is easy to understand the true import of the verses from Bachittar Natak. 2. Mohammed didn't convert any kings. What about the King of Oman? Mohammed sent him a threatening letter and he submitted. In the light of note 1, we need to consider what the word Raja mean to the people of the Gurus time. The term for the highest temporal king was Badshah or Padshah. The use of Indic regal terms had fallen into disuse and did not always mean what they meant only a few centuries earlier. The Mughals allowed a number of minor Rajas to exist mostly on the very edges of their empire in the hills of Himachal and Kashmir and in Rajasthan. Some of these Rajas were in conflict with Guru Gobind Singh in the Anandpur Hills. Raja could easily mean a Tribal chief and not as an equivilent of Badshah with all the rights to issue coins and right to inflict capital punishment as SHAHJI implies. The term Rajas here could easily mean tribal chiefs and as anyone who has studied Mohammed's career would know he converted a number of tribal chiefs. SHAHJI's argument that only the Byzantine Emperor and Persian Shah could be considered Rajas is a nonsense. 3. Mohammed was never a King of Arabia Again in the light of note 1, Raja could refer to any minor potentate and Mohammed was one of these in Medina. Later after his invasion of Mecca he acted as a conqueror, so he could very well be considered as a Raja by the people of Guru Gobind's time. 4. Mohammed and Satnaam. The whole import of the verses are about people raised by God to serve his purpose of bringing the people to worship Him but who instead subvert the message and make themselves more important than God. Mohammed is a classic example of this and instead of being surprised that a man who is considered a prophet my millions of people is given such a treatment, one would have been more surprised had Mohammed not been used as an example in Bachittar Natak. Look at the Hadiths where Allah is seen rushing to pull out verses to support Mohammed's position on issues such as adoption (Mohammed wanted his adopted son's wife and Allah provided the verses to outlaw adoption), rumours of adultery (Child bride Aisha left behind with a youth- 4 witness to prove charges of adultery) etc. The next verses states that-; Everyone looked after his own interests and did not comprehend the supreme Lord. The accusation towards Mohammed is that he did not give the message as God wanted him to and subverted it in his own interests. No doubt Muslims as well as SHAHJI would be aghast at this but this is the import of the verse about Mohammed. Given the way that Mohammed used to get the verses to support his position and lifestyle then it is a fair accusation. Any way to look at this is that given the major differences between the way God is described in the Quran (hates unbelievers, changes his mind over direction to pray, is a deceiver etc) then if one accepts Sikhism's view of God then the only way to look Mohammed is that he was at best a faulty broadcaster of God's message or that he deliberately subverted God's message. Comments on some of SHAHJI's side issues 1. His ancestors converted to Islam by choice and Islam wasn't spread by the sword. That might or might not be the case. We will never know but given that Dhimmis had a much lower status under Sharia law then even a conversion undertaken to escape second class status is in a sense a forcible conversion. Only a fool would think that Islam was not spread by the sword. Look at all the accounts of the then contemporary Muslim historians and how they praise the way the Muslim invaders and Kings persecuted the Hindus. Millions were killed by Islam which in todays terms is equivalent to hundreds of Millions. If as you say, Islam says there is no compulsion in religion then why would these historians want to praise the Muslim kings for doing unislamic things? As you are well aware that verse belongs to Mohammed's docile Mecca period when he did not have any power and was at the mercy of the Quresh tribe. This verse has been abrogated by later more belligerent verses from the time when Mohammed had power. I'm surprised that a supposed scholar like you believes the lie about Islam not being spread by the sword! What will be get next time SHAHJI? Embryology in the Quran? Btw I can't believe that you posted a photo of Ayotollah Khomeini, are you following his instructions not to sell a sheep that you've had sex with in your own village but sell it in the next one..LOL

The word Sehajdhari - adoption by stages gives a clue to the meaning and position of Sehajdharis in the Panth. Sehajdharis were those who came from a non-Sikh background who were moving towards taking Amrit at some later stage. The reason for this interpretation is that if you believe as all Sikhs should that all the ten Gurus were one light then it makes it impossible for someone to following 9 Gurus and not the 10th as well. I know a few people who have come to Sikhi from non-Sikh backgrounds and they took Amrit after they had first started to live their lives according to the rehat. They read Bani, listened to Kirtan, started to follow Nitnem routine and as a consequence started to stop cutting their hair. And then finally they took Amrit. This is what a Sehajdari should be, there is no time limit on how long them should take on each stage but it is important that it is understood that taking Amrit is then what transform them into Sikhs.

Let's be realistic here, I'm sure that all the Nihangs and even the Nirmala mentioned here would make great Jathedars, but the Panth would never tolerate a Nihang or a Nirmala in such a position. Whether this is a good thing or not we can debate until the cows come home but none of them would be allowed by the Sikh masses to take charge. Baba Hari Singh Randhawawale would make a great Jathedar but unfortunately I have the feeling that if he is offered it then he would refuse. Unless the truely religious take charge and sweep away the filth that Badal has brought into the SGPC and Akal Takht then I fear we are in for more of the same.

I feel sorry for the poor women but I am sure that she has only now experienced what effect the implementation of 'divine law' has on her and other citizens of Saudi. But then again if she had not been affected her then I think she would blindly go around arguing how this 'divine' law is superior to 'man made' laws! Maybe like the gang rape victim who was whipped for immorality she will start to think for herself and evaluate whether sharia law really is 'divine' law.

It was transmitted some months ago, I think during the 60th anniversary of 'independence' in Aug 2007. Overall it was a good documentary but woods downplayed the atrocities of the Muslims during their invasions of India and was pretty much ga ga over the Mughals and Taj Mahal.

I don't think there was any mass movement against Sadhus in the Kharkoo days. It seems that it is all too easy to blame them for almost any killing that took place then. I don't recall Hindu sadhus being killed let alone Nirmalas or Udasis during that time. If any did get killed then it would an extremely rare event and more connected with some forms of personal emnity or land grab than a Khalistani connection. Even during the heydays of the Kharkoos, Hindu sadhus used to wander the Punjab countryside much as they did before 1984.

You are right, it's up to the people who followed this guy to now realise that he was just another ego that needed their constant praise and awe. He was similar to Gurmeet Ram Raheem, the Bhaniara, Ashutosh and a host of others who no matter what bukwas they sprout they will always find fawning followers. Bahadur needs to be controversial, he lives to be controversial because by being thus he is able to exercise some power over those who follow him because they fool themselves into believing that controversy equates to research and scholarship. Everytime he is banned for making an anti-Sikh comment he comes back under another name and make even more outrageous statements. The fascinating fact here is why does he bother to come here or on Sikhsangat? He's left Sikhi and his statements make this clear. The reason in my view is not hard to fathom, he needs to create controversy and in his new found religion he knows that controversy is like asking for a death sentence. I highly doubt that an ego as big as his which considers himself to be the be all and end all of scholarship believes all the fairy tales of hidden Imams and the Mahdi or immoral beliefs such as temporary marriages. But unfortunately for him he's joined a religion that brooks no controversy, I mean if they can blow each other up without any qualms then do you think they would think twice of him? If he did ever came up with the bukwas he did here about Shia'ism then I have no doubt that any one of his so-called brothers and sisters on Shia Chat would slit his throat without a second thought. So is it any wonder that Bahadur comes on Sikh forums to peddle his bukwas here firm in the knowledge that even though he might get threats it's very unlikely that a Sikh would be as mentally unbalanced as his Shia friends are and try and act on the threat.

Then isn't that the fault of the parcharaks rather than the college or the magazine? If Budha Dal has a particular stance but say some members of Budha Dal say something different then it doesn't mean that Budha Dal is inconsistent.

The problem is that if you a rigid viewpoint even if it is in line with Sikh tradition/ history then you will always been seen as an extremist by some people. Whether it's Khalistan - Raj Karega Khalsa or a Dehdhari Guru - Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukum Hai some people will always try and liberalise the tradition in order to make your view the extreme one. Raj Karega Khalsa then become the rule of the 'pure' meaning any person who is 'pure' whether he is Sikh, Hindu, Muslim etc. Then you become the extremist because you only equate Khalsa with Amritdhari Sikh.

I think the first two pics have been photoshopped with turbans. The only reason I can think of is that the photos of the two kids who have decided to keep their Kesh was unavailable. No doubt for Jassasingh this proves Sikh Phulwari is Asikh phulwari. Probably his view is more to do with Sikh Phulwari's Singh Sabha ideology rather than their use of photoshop!

Overeaction? This coming from the latest recruit to a religion that puts frumpy teachers into jail for naming a teddy bear Mohammed and burning embassies when the Pope quotes a Byzantine emperor!

SoT, Is this a different paper from the Khanda and Dhulfiqar one or are they the same. If they are different then could you email me a copy of the Sikhs and Shias one to tonyhp32@hotmail.com Cheers

Just be thankful he didn't fall for a Jehovah's Witness, can you imagine a John Bahadur all dressed up in a suit and tie coming to your door trying to flog you the Watchtower magazine and refusing to leave until he's saved your soul! On a serious note, SoT don't you think that a person who converts to another religion just after they have met/fallen for a person of that religion, is a relevant point when that person then starts to propagandise his/her new found religion as the 'truth'? Doesn't this have an impact on his/her antecedents considering he/she goes from proclaiming the truth of their previous religion to proclaiming the truth of their new religion? This isn't a statement about you but an example. Or perhaps a better example would be that isn't it easier for say a militant atheist/marxist to become a Muslim terrorist than it is for say a peaceful Buddhist to do the same?

No I didn't discredit Mann for being published by Havard but because I don't view every book on Sikh Studies being published by OUP or Harvard as the final word on the subject. You seem to view the Harvard or OUP publishing label as the seal of authenticity. Celophon Ahiyapur Pothi --- One God realised through the True Guru's grace. Sambat Magh vadi 1, 1652 (Jan 7, 1596) the Pothi was written by Guru Abir Baba (Guru Amar Das) Naam Kartar Nirbhau Nirikar Ajuni Sabho. This blessing has been given by Guru Baba (Guru Nanak) to Guru Angad who passed it in all three generations whoever attunes his mind to the Bani would obtain liberation. ........ If anyone from our progeny (Bhallas) deserts the Guru to follow a Guru from another family (Sodhis) will go to hell. The above seems suspiciously like an attempt to keep together a group within a rival Guruship. Guru Amar Das couldn't have written this pothi in 1596 because the Guru had passed the Guruship to Guru Ram Das in 1574. If Guru Abir Baba is not Guru Amar Das to whom the pothis are ascribed then who is Guru Abir Baba? First sources authorative? Doesn't the biases, the origin, the group to which the source belong to have any bearing on the matter. So, I assume that as the gospels predate the Quran then they are authorative about the life of Jesus and the Quran is wrong? I really don't think this debate is going anywhere especially due to your refusal to come up with your take on the questions asked by me, so I will take my leave on this particular thread.

The questions were for you and not for Mann. No, the price doesn't discourage me,. As we have established a long time ago, you are the one who doesn't have book that is being discussed at hand. What's the matter, your SOAS library card been cancelled or something? This is a discussion about whether Gurbani is fixed or changable. Therefore the onus is on you to provide the proof as you see it or do your answers to any debate always consist of asking the other to read a particular book. Come forward with your answers to the questions asked if you wish the debate to proceed further. Otherwise we will just chalk this up as another cut and run job as usual.

SoT, You have still not answered the questions I posed. Why if the Pothis are dated as around 1574 according to Mann, do they contain shabads of Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjan? It's so easy to accept something because it fits into you agenda but quite a different matter when the acceptance conjures up more difficult questions. I see that although you don't like your former mentor or should I say tour guide you still accept his theory about the Pothis yet you have no answer to the questions posed. Not everyone accepts Kavi Santokh Singh's writings as 100% authentic. I would have thought you knew that already. On the 7 variants of Mool Mantar where you find fault with Gurbani and allege that it wasn't fixed, I find fault with the scribe of the Pothis because he took a blaise attitude to the Mool Mantar. This is where we have to agree to disagree. I sincerely hope that you won't repeat your previous modus operandi of throwing allegations and then running off when you can't handle the subsequent debate. So your prophet was unschooled. That's a new one. I see you pick and choose your beliefs in Islam as you did when you were in the bhes of a Nirmala. Aisha was 16 according to you because you don't want to follow a deviant prophet. Then you accept Mohammed was unschooled and not illiterate. I suppose it affects the vanity of a scholar such as yourself if he followed a anparh 'prophet' I thought when gabriel roughed him up in the cave during the first 'revelation' he shouted that he couldn't read! I'm sure that's in the hadiths somewhere.

SoT My comment about Qibla and abrogation was to do with your comments that does God change his mind. The truncated Quran does pose problems because isn't the Quran supposed me some kind of miraculous copy of a tablet held in heaven? Rather than a reliable transmission it does appear haphazard. As for abrogation doesn't this have a similarity with the allegations that you are making regarding the changes made to the Mool Mantar? The problem with your analysis and your support for Gurinder Singh Mann is-; 1. You accept the Goindval pothis as authentic following the lead taken by GS Mann. What such a stance fails to take into account is the very real problems that scholars have with these pothis. As I remarked previously just because GS Mann says something is authentic does not make it so. At best the pothis are proof of a parallel line of Guruship centring on the descendents of Baba Mohan. 2. Your take on the GS Mann and BS Dhillon view of the Pothis is that because GS Mann is published by Havard and OUP it means that his scholarship has more validity than BS Dhillon. I think we discussed the nature of scholarship when you were in your previous avatar of lalleshvari. Just the fact that someone is published by OUP (especially in the field of Sikh Studies) doesn't imply that that scholar is the be all and end all in that field. If anything it just shows how successful that scholar has been in towing a particular academic line, being beholden to the benefactors of his chair etc. I remember a decade or so ago GS Mann went to Punjab in order to garner support from the Sikh leadership in Punjab which could then be used to get financial support for diaspora Sikhs for his chair at university. He used a video camera to get interviews with GS Tohra and I think some other leaders and it was only afterwards that the leadership discovered just how credible he was and Tohra issued a statement disassociating himself from Mann. If you really want to know the level of integrity in the top academic centres that you yourself know that you were teaching Punjabi at SOAS and yet your knowledge in the language is very limited to say the least. If you, for the want of a better word could blag it at SOAS then it's possible for another scholar to blag it at other academic institutions and get his work published. I wonder how well read up the publishers at Havard are on Sikh scriptures so that they can decide that Mann's work is worthy of their esteemed name? 3. You placed great store on the alleged changing of the Mool Mantar. “And most importantly the mulmantar. What you have failed to mention is that the pothis contain in all SEVEN variant versions of the Mool Mantar. This should indicate that the lineage that got the pothis written had no regard for keeping the Mool Mantar consistent. One version of the Mool Mantar contains a invocation to Guru Nanak (Guru Babay Patishah), another has an invocation Babay Nanak Vedi Patishah. One of the versions even excludes the '1' of Ik Oankar. Although GS Mann’s work in only footnoted in page 98. The rest of the chapter has a discussion on the assumptions made by Mann. How is that wrong? The only thing that links Baba Jeth Chand to Ghulam/ Sada Sewak, the writer of the verses is this signature. The fact that the signature was not noted earlier especially when scholars who had came specifically to study the pothi casts some doubt over this. Surely as GS Mann implies with the use of his catch all ‘Bhalla Family tradition’, any Sikh scholar would have been aware of this tradition of Guru Ram Das using the pen name Ghulam Mast. If Baba Mohan crossed through the verses of Ghulam Mast then why are shabads of Guru Ram Das included in the work? A total of about 5 Shabads which in the Guru Granth Sahib are attributed to Guru Nanak are attributed to Guru Ram Das. As for Kavi Santokh Singh, his use of fantasy tales in order to explain inconsistencies is well known. Guru Amar Das was able to give detailed instructions on how his passing was not be to a time of mourning as well as proclaiming Guru Ram Das as Guru. There was ample time for the Pothis had they existed at that time to have been passed on to Guru Ram Das. GS Mann has accepted the date of the scribing of the pothis as around 1574 but when then there is a clear colophon at the start of the work which claims the blessing of the three generations of the Gurus and is dated 1596. He knows that if that is the correct date then he cannot continue his line that the Goindval Pothis were used by Guru Arjan during the compilation of the Guru Granth Sahib. This is why he needs to prove that Ghulam Mast has to be Guru Ram Das previous to ascending the Guruship because that could only have occurred before 1574. The crux of the matter which is not addressed is why would Guru Arjan having procured the Goindval Pothis then-; 1. Change the authorship of some Shabads from one Guru to the next 2. Not include the work of his father (Guru Ram Das) previous to him becoming Guru. No credible answers are given by Mann but just conjectures.

I read somewhere a long time ago that the original characters of Heer and Ranjha were Hindus who were then transformed into Muslim characters by the poets such as Bulleh Shah and others. A bit of trivia and something that not many people think about. Karam Singh Historian wrote an article about Heer-Ranjha to a Sikh journal in the 1920s. He remarked that while a lot of people will make merriment singing of Heer yet none in their own families would name their daughters Heer or sit by and allow their daughters to act as Heer did. A very worthwhile article if anyone gets the chance to read it.

Sword of Tabriz As someone who follows Islam you should be aware that God/Allah changes his mind a lot during the creation of the Quran so I fail to see why you are attacking Gurbani for doing the same. Changing the direction of the Qibla comes to mind as is the problematic concept of abrogation in the Quran. That being said the view held by Gurinder Singh Mann are disputed by a number of Sikh scholars. Just because Mann accepts something as authentic does not make it so Have you read Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition by B S Dhillon. A much more scholarly book which blows Mann out of the water.

Xylitol, This isn't just a Sikh problem but a worldwide problem. We know the media has tried to suppress the evidence that Pakistanis are luring young white girls into prostitution in some of the cities up north. A couple of these scumbags were jailed a few months ago. Here is a report from Israel which should open a few eyes who doubt the mischief that Muslims seem to have inbred into them. Yad B'Yad rescues Jewish girls Jerusalem Post by Sarah Katz August 7, 2003 Imprisoned in the Arab home, subjected to six months of servitude and abuse by her captors, Dorit (names of the women have been changed) anxiously awaits rescue by a veiled woman accompanied by two Arab men. Disguised as a Muslim woman, Rachel Schwartz, founder and director of the Yad B'Yad (Hand in Hand) project, smuggles Dorit out of captivity and returns her home. Yad B'Yad, which operates under the umbrella non-profit organization Am Echad United, attempts to provide a 'refuge for young Jewish girls manipulated by Arab men,' says the group's Web site. The group focuses on 12-to-17-year-old girls who are in 'direct high-risk' - defined by the Labor and Social Affairs Ministry as homeless, having poor attendance in school, and living at the poverty level - making them 'prime targets for Arab men who know how to take advantage of them,' says the Web site. According to the Ministry, 10% of Israel's 313,000 Jewish girls between the ages of 12-17 are in 'direct high-risk.' Of the 31,000, between 15,000 and 18,000 are involved in relationships with Arabs. The organization claims that Arab men often deliberately lead the girls to believe they are Jewish, in order to lure them to Arab villages where many are treated as slaves and housekeepers or even murdered. Schwartz identifies the seduction of these girls as 'another form of terrorism at work.' 'This is a Jewish nation and these are Jewish souls. The fact that this is a non-Jew trying to steal a Jewish girl makes it a Jewish problem. It's easy to report a suicide bombing on a bus - that is tangible evidence. But these are silent terrorists,' explains Schwartz. At age 11, Yael would buy groceries to bring back to her home in Gilo. She formed a friendship which blossomed into a romantic relationship after four years with an employee of the grocery. He identified himself as Yossi, a blonde observant Jew who 'spoke to me in excellent Hebrew about Shabbat and kiddush and seemed to know more about Jewish learning than I did,' Yael told The Jerusalem Post. Four months into her pregnancy, at age 18, Yael discovered that her boyfriend was actually an Arab when she read his identification card. Yael spent the remainder of her pregnancy in an Arab village, in close proximity to her home in Gilo, where she was 'treated like a queen.' During her pregnancy, said Yael, her boyfriend forced her to pray in a mosque, dressed in Arab clothing. 'He threatened, 'you must become Muslim for the baby - there can't be two religions.' ' Two days after she gave birth, Yossi moved Yael into a different home in the same village. 'I saw a woman and her three small children - Yossi's wife and family. They took my child and told me from then on I was to their slave. If I didn't cook using the right amount of salt, they would kick me, hit me, and burn my skin with cigarettes,' said Yael. Yad B'Yad pays two Arab men $5,000 per victim to conduct surveillance and execute the rescue. Schwartz meets with each girl three to four times in a period of between two to three months before a rescue can be conducted. Although in January 2003, the Israeli government imposed a ban upon anyone entering an Arab village, including police and soldiers, Schwartz continues to intercede and free girls who request help. Under close supervision and threats of death and further physical abuse, Yael remained a prisoner in the house for 10 months. After three interrupted attempts to use the telephone, she was able to reach a friend who contacted Schwartz at Yad B'Yad. After three weeks, Schwartz arrived in her disguise at Yael's door, and told her to prepare to leave. Yael escaped with her daughter three days later. Since the projects's commencement two years ago, Yad B'Yad has rescued 65 girls confined in Arab villages. However, the organization also addresses the prevention and education of girls before this problem can escalate. Four girls between the ages of 15-and-a-half and 17 live together in a neighbor's home in Gilo. All from homes with divorced parents and extreme poverty, the girls gratefully accepted the attention and gifts of their new neighbor Rafi, who moved in almost four years ago. Rafi, 23, who claimed to be a Sephardi Jew, introduced them to smoking and drugs and presented the girls with stolen cellular phones, clothing, and shoes. One-and-a-half years after meeting Rafi, one of the girls saw him in a bus station speaking Arabic. The teenagers continue their relationship with the man and his Arab friends out of what they believe to be necessity. 'The situation is very sad that I have to ask the Arab, our enemy, to feed me so that I don't starve,' says Dina, one of the girls. Rochelle, her roommate, blames the government. 'This country should go to hell!' she exclaims. 'The government doesn't care if our refrigerator is empty, if we don't have a place to sleep at night. The state turned off our electricity because we couldn't pay the bill, so we steal it from a neighbor.' The girls do fear that the Arabs might 'kidnap us to their villages,' yet feel that they must continue with the men who provide them with food and money. Yad B'Yad attempts to educate and provide these girls with resources in order to eliminate their dependence. Ultimately, Yad B'Yad is 'looking to create a village of 50 houses with the aim to strengthen the girls' Jewish identity and minds and give them the skills to develop themselves. We have the goal to meet the needs of these girls, train them with a skill, and help them finish school,' says Yad B'Yad staff member Tehila David. However, the expenses overwhelm the young organization. To maintain a group home for 18 girls would cost $200,000 per year. Recently, the Ministry of Welfare agreed to match any funds raised by Yad B'Yad. Schwartz travels throughout the United States and Israel in order to raise funding and awareness. 'The word must get out, first to the Anglo community. The American people must be aware that this is a very serious problem that must be addressed,' says Schwartz. In the middle of her interview, Dina asked, 'I want to know if I am wasting my time sitting here and telling you my story or are you going to help us?'

Something never rings true with all these Muslims who go around saying how in love they are with their non-Muslim girlfriends. Just to paraphrase Chris Rock during his rant about black people and niggers "I ain't never been to jail" http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kpUSElgJcyI&...feature=related "You're not supposed to have a girlfriend at all you dumb ass stupid admin cut. Maybe I'm on to something, who thinks that Muslims are to normal people what niggers are to hardworking black people! Before someone starts to have a heartattack about racism, watch the Chris Rock stand up for some context