chatanga1

Bhai Sukha Singh took amrit twice, once from Bhai Mani Singh and once from Baba Shaam Singh. has the 2nd volume of the english translation come out yet by dr kulwant singh?(i think)

there was another "official" jihad against the sikhs by ahmed bareilly, started in the NWFP, i think durin the times of M.Ranjit Singh. If i remember correctly, i read that he went around collecting suport form the local tribes before attacking, so i guess it may be down to whatever resources the jihadis have/need before it starts. news is instant these days with a world audience butyou still hear of madrassas encouraging jihad. i dont think that musicains would be very appelaing to muslims to come to jihad. after all they are promised 72 virgins, so who on earth would want to listen to matthew and son by cat stevens?

no it doesnt. it just skips round the question with smart talk and fancy words so you can avoid answering the question. I'l will ask for the 4th time, please answer with a yes or no: " did Guru Ji ever fight any battles against Hindus"?

You're right about not bothering with the gita. we only need gurbani. If we didnt Guru would have said. Gita is from times gone by. If we need the Gita in Kalyug, then would we have needed Guru Nanak, or could we have just kept Sri Krishan Bhagwaan from the previous yug?

why does gurbani say this about the Tre-Dev? Aasaa, 4 Ik-Tukay: No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya, who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1|| Having bitten and struck them down, she now sits in the immaculate waters. By Guru's Grace, I have seen her, who has bitten the three worlds. ||1||Pause||O Siblings of Destiny, why is she called a she-serpent? One who realizes the True Lord, devours the she-serpent. ||2|| No one else is more frivolous than this she-serpent. When the she-serpent is overcome, what can the Messengers of the King of Death do? ||3|| This she-serpent is created by Him. What power or weakness does she have by herself? ||4|| If she abides with the mortal, then his soul abides in his body. By Guru's Grace, Kabeer has easily crossed over. ||5||6||19|| doesnt it tell us the tredev were...

No, we dont slander anything, as we beleive Gurbani to be above vedic concepts. It is also the corrections of all societies, not just hindustani societies. after all Guru Nanak did travel way out of India to bring the Word. If Guru Ji were just here to correct hindu corruptions would he have done this do you think? actually you havent answered my question form a few days ago, so i wont hold out for an answer here. Om Namah Shiva.

harjas kaur, i'll ask again for the third time, "did Guru ji ever fight any battles against hindus? simple yes or no, if possible.

thats probably the only sensible thing you've posted on this forum. and unbiased, may i add.

harjas kaur, i'll ask again, "did Guru ji ever fight any battles against hindus? simple yes or no, if possible.

re hindusikh brotherhood forum. in order to maintain Hindu-Sikh unity and brotherhood, you know, the kind that harjas kaur loves, this is what truehindu posted: Even Harigovind who was not very spiritual at all, only became the guru after Arjun Dev because he was his son. He was more of a soldier and hence introduced the concept of Miri Piri to justify his Hunting and fighting in battles. Up until now all the gurus had been saintly and preached non violence. and this is the next post by shivbhagat: truehindu said : Even Harigovind who was not very spiritual at all, only became the guru after Arjun Dev because he was his son. He was more of a soldier and hence introduced the concept of Miri Piri to justify his Hunting and fighting in battles. ------ Exactly. Dontcha think harjas has a nerve to complain about how sikhs views hindus, when hindus are making these comments and expects us to maintain our proud "rajput" ancestry. she, like the rest of them with these views are very 2 faced.

too right!

Rajput khatris are not the same as the surajvansi khatris. rajput khatris came some time later. if i can remember correctly rajputs are agnivansh khatris. Guru Ji is from Surajvanshi khatri. does the same apply to Islam because we fought the muslims ? they also claim that Sikhi has copied from them. when did khalsa singh ever fight against Guru? here is what Guru Ji says of rajputs in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib: The sons born of that Sanaudh woman, Line 1 ਵਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨੌਢ ਕਹਾਤ ਭਏ ॥੧੭॥੩੦੭॥ Were called Sanaudh.17.307. Line 2 ਸੁਤ ਅਉਰਨ ਕੇ ਉਹ ਠਾਂ ਜੁ ਅਹੇ ॥ The sons of other kshatryas, who lived at that place, Line 3 ਉਤ ਛਤ੍ਰੀਅ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਏ ॥ They became Kshatriyas of many junior ccastes. Line 4 ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਕੇ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਜਾਤੁ ਭਏ ॥ Those Brahmins who ate together with the king. Line 5 ਨਰ ਸੋ ਰਜਪੂਤ ਕਹਾਤ ਭਏ ॥੧੮॥੩੦੮॥ They were called Rajputs.18.308. Line 6 ਤਿਨ ਜੀਤ ਬਿਜੈ ਕਹੁ ਰਾਉ ਚੜਿਓ ॥ After conquering them, the king (Ajai Singh) moved to gain further conquests. Line 7 ਅਤਿ ਤੇਜੁ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਬਢਿਓ ॥ His glory and magnificence increased enormously. Line 8 ਜੋਊ ਆਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਅਰੁ ਸਾਕ ਦਏ ॥ Those who surrendered before him and married their daughters to him, Line 9 ਨਰ ਤੇ ਰਜਪੂਤ ਕਹਾਤ ਭਏ ॥੧੯॥੩੦੯॥ They were also called Rajputs.19.309. so 2 things i have picked up from this , 1 that brahmins were also called rajputs, and 2 , that giving their daughters away to save their lives is an inherent trait of the rajputs.

havent the indians taken done the same in afghanistan ? why are they suporting civil war and causing mischief in that country? why did the holy sanatan people cause civil war in Sikh raaj enabling the brits to take over? did Guru Ji ever fight battles against any hindus? we dont want to throw it out. we just want to keep it i the perspective thatGurbani does.

i dont think anyone wants to do that. we simply wish to see Krishna in the context that Gurus put him in.

but that does not answer my original statement. it does in the fashion of the website in question skip around it. didnt the freedom loving indians forge an alliance with hitler? didnt the same freedom loving indians forge an alliance with the japanese? didnt india see bangladesh as seperate from pakistan? has the indian conduct with its minorities been any better than the pakistanis against india? one is terrorist group, the other a terrorist state. dont the same muslim groups who fight against china also use chinese weapons? did they buy them from china or produce them themselves in dera ghazi khan? really? most of the engish beleived that they had brought culture and progression to india by ruling it for centuries. And as for the naive assertion that the "weapons were planted by the Indian government," yeah, right. why not? they lied about torturing and killing people in false encounters. For example Simranjit Singh Mann, former head of Shiromani Akali Dal Amritsar videotaped shouting "Pakistan Zindabad" and praising their propaganda to achieve alliance with Sikhs and recognition of Khalistan together with his arrest for treason paint the picture that some radical Sikhs groups are actively collaborating with Pakistan. in the same way that india helped various factions of the mujahideen ? So when Sikhs begin to post hate speech against Hindu's and Hinduism and justify the murder of Sanatan Sikh dera leaders and trash Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts while many times promoting aims of the Pakistani Intelligence forces, then yes, it is reasonable to assume some people will believe you are acting in the interests of Pakistan to further divide India as a sovereign country and to spread the kind of hate and disunity which leads to violence. Is there a spiritual purpose behind it? See, many Sanatan Sikhs believe these political manipulations and corruptions defile Sikhi and don't represent it at all. what was the spiritual purpose behind the smearing of Sant Jarnaill Singh? This is some of things they have posted under the guise of Hindu-Sikh unity : calling the 5 ks useless. sayng that Guru Arjan copied Bhagat Bani without their consent. calling 8 of the Guru's a joke. claiming that Guru Harkrishan was given gurgaddi cos Ram Rai was the son of a lowcaste maid of Guru Har Rai. saying that Gurus beleeived in caste discrimination. What you are talking about are a collection of individuals with a collection of opinions, not one of which represents Hindu Dharma or even a particular sanatan Sikh sect. If you have a problem with those opinions, write you're rebuttal. But analyzing some of the issues under debate, can you explain WHY someone would believe the panj kakkars are "useless" from a spiritual perspective? there are way of asking questions in an enquiring manner and ways of insulting. sadly you harp on about my use of the words "turd and mofo" but overleook the deliberate insults of individuals. then bang on about how the singh sabhias are narrowminded. Now, you are mixing apples with oranges in this phrase: "saying that Gurus beleeived in caste discrimination." no, im not mixing anything. that was a topic on the website. There is a difference between caste "discrimination" and believing in the caste-varna-jati system. So here again, we're back to the issue of differing opinions and not "disrespect of teachings." tell this to the fools who mock your Guru, in the guise of brotherhood. Vaishnav sants initiated a caste based reform hundreds of years before Guru Nanak Dev Ji was even born. And these teachings of spiritual evolution and equality are what appear in Vaishnav bhagat bani. These teachings are based on the Srimad Bhagavatum which teaches that a persons gunas, his temperament, not his birth determine his true varna, and that everybody is intended to be a brahmana, servant and devotee of God. So in the original Vedic system, even the lowly Shudra can be a brahmin, and a born brahmin a shudra based on his mentality. And it is this Vaishnav reform philophy which is found in Sikh Gurbani. ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5|| The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5|| ~SGGS Ji ang 923 You do not find ANYWHERE in Gurbani, rejection of the caste-varna system. You do not find ANYWHERE promotion of caste discrimination. But the issue comes down to a matter of different opinions and different knowledge people bring to these discussions. Simply to read the Gurbani literally and believe the Vedic Vaishnav reform in the Varna system, together with the historical fact that not a single Guru Sahibaan ever married out of his caste and that Guru Granth Sahib records Guru caste surnames, or that historical pothis record what caste the panj piare were reflects that complete "rejection" of the caste-Varna system did NOT occur, although rejections of the CORRUPTIONS of it did. ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa || The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings. ~SGGS Ji ang 747 ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan || There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned. ~SGGS Ji ang 861 ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa || He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 68 ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥ babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa || BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin. ~SGGS Ji ang 258 ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥ adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae || The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime. ~SGGS Ji ang 381 It sounds like a foolish opinion of someone who doesn't know any better. But I don't read anything "bad" into it. Not even every Sikh understands the passing of the Jyoth from one Guru to another, why would you expect eveyone to have the same undertsanding as you do? Instead of calling him names, why don't you share that gyaan which you gain from dhyaan with him instead? If you can't do Sikhi parchaar why drop to the level of insults in the name of defending Sikhi? Vaishnav in Gurmat terms is not the same as Vaishanv in hindu dharma. perhaps you could kindly make it clear what these holy devotees of Vishnu are trying to do? You should know that not every Hindu is a Vaishnav. And the people who have different opinions about the meaning of Gurbani or the historical relationships and stories withing different Sikh sampradayas are not all going to agree on things. But your comment about "holy devotees of Vishnu" following calling as mo fo's and turds is "disrespectful" of Gurbani. an you should know that that i did not call devotes of vishnu turds or mofos. i called a particular person for what garbage he had written. stop looking for drama. ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥ babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa || BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin. ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥ baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa || A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma. ਬੀਰਾ ਆਪਨ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਵੈ ॥ beeraa aapan buraa mittaavai || One who eradicates his own evil is a brave warrior; ~SGGS Ji ang 258 Gurbani calls a Vaishnav as Gurmukh. and hindus call vaishnav as one who worship vishnu. the difference is blatant. ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ baisano so jis oopar suprasann || The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased. ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn || He dwells apart from Maya. ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ karam karath hovai nihakaram || Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards. ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥ this baisano kaa niramal dhharam || Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav; ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥ kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai || he has no desire for the fruits of his labors. ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥ kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai || He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory. ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥ man than anthar simaran gopaal || Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe. ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥ sabh oopar hovath kirapaal || He is kind to all creatures. ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥ aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai || He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2|| O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2|| ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ bhagouthee bhagavanth bhagath kaa rang || The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God. ~SGGS Ji ang 274 Gurbani calls the Vaishnav who worships Gopaal, name of Har Krishna as attaining the liberation. Nothing anywhere in Gurbani rejects or disrespects Vaishnavism or Har Krishana. Neither should you.

there is nothing wrong with hndu sikh unity on equal terms. I respect their religion but if I talk about Sikhi as a sepreate religion then they will either say im a singh sabhia or a pakistani agent. then they will deliberately misquote gurbani which contain the words RAM etc to try and prove that Gurus worshiped Vishnu etc . This is some of things they have posted under the guise of Hindu-Sikh unity : calling the 5 ks useless. sayng that Guru Arjan copied Bhagat Bani without their consent. calling 8 of the Guru's a joke. claiming that Guru Harkrishan was given gurgaddi cos Ram Rai was the son of a lowcaste maid of Guru Har Rai. saying that Gurus beleeived in caste discrimination. there is a mo-fo on that site called sant. this is what that turd of a person posted: "Guru Harkishen was a 6 year old guru, whose only QUALIFICATION for becoming guru was the fact that he was Guru Har Rais son. He passed on when he was 11 and made no contribution to the granth sahib, so does he deserve to be reverred as a guru?" now harjas this is the tip of the iceberg. there is a lot more. So plz dont giv that rubbish that you didnt read anything bad. perhaps you could kindly make it clear what these holy devotees of Vishnu are trying to do? Om Namah Shiva! Jai Shiv Shamboo!

do you think Guru Ji would have said this? it doesnt make sense if you read Akal Ustat, that Guru Ji would liken a part of a country to be like heaven.I think. when exactly did this kes/keski become an "issue"?

its a bleak existence and even bleaker future for these people. would an armed confrontation be any good? they getting hell kicked out of them as it is.

bro i can see it may be narrowminded, buts whats so fanatical about it?

sorry shaheediyan bro, what i meant to say was that in the quran there is, in black and white is that non-muslims are kafirs and are not to be associated with. also as the Holy Profit(pbuh) was the seal of the profhets would Bhai Mardana still be a muslim, ie one who accepts God AND his rasool, not just God only, or a disciple of Guru Nanak , making him a sikh? I just find from reading the Qu'ran that with it being Allah's word, the beleivers will never doubt it. Ever. ut here you are saying that Bhai Mardana did doubt it in parts but was still a Muslim. sorry if ive said anyting wrong.

how would Bhai Mardana being a muslim reconcile his Islamic "kill that kafir", with being the learner of a kafir Guru?

Maha Singh Ji how would Guru Gobind Singh Ji answer this question? chatanga

the only side im on is guru's. that is "only fools wrangle over flesh." fools, all of you. even me, so im not even gna get into this anymore. understand.

silence, did you read the sentence i wrote after that?

i think that all living things feel pain when they relinquish their body to enter another jooni. gurbani tells us about the " janam maran ka dukh" so i dont think any life leaves any body happily. im not sure that meat-eaters say plants do/dont feel pain, ( i dont say it myself) but rather that the life in each living thing is no different from another, just the life purpose they have within the immaculate creation of Waheguru. ie the food chain. Im not a vegetarian although i avoid meat,(my mum is psycho-veggie) but the mention of taste of tongue is foolish. i wont eat masri-moongi etc if it dont taste good. anyway. i want you to stop dividing the panth on foolish non-ending issues and work for the establishment of Khalsa raaj. ive told you this b4 on sikhsangat, but you are not listening. focus on stuff that unites us.