BhagatSingh

Life is suffering. Way more suffering than in the womb. How do you explain Gurus and Avtars staying in life?

Is that what you think I said?

@Ragmaala Since you listen to Mahapurush so much, explain this to me Ragmaala - How can you have a creation and not have Hari present in it?

Don't just read one line and make that into a belief system. Keep reading. ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ May that mouth burn which says Prabhu takes birth, because he neither takes birth nor does he die. ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ Guru Arjun Dev ji says, my Prabhu permeates all things and all locations. He is consciousness. Consciousness does not take birth, nor does it die. It simply is. It extends out to infinity, permeating all things. That mind and body, which has perception, takes birth and dies, not the spirit, not he consciousness. That which I called the information field (which organizes the body)does not take birth nor die. It does not fit into that category of things which takes birth and dies. We also have to understand that everything Guru Sahibs say is a pointer to spiritual awareness. He is pointing you to your own atma and saying look at it and see whether it can be born or whether it can die. Can your atma ever change? Does it ever get effected by any experience? Now the above is what is relevant to this discussion. But here's the full translation of the shabad just for fun - This shabad is actually talking about people who say Krishan ji has been born on the day of "Krishan janamashtami" and they celebrate his birth by bringing out a Shaligram and feeding it. Guru Arjun Dev ji is saying that Krishan ji does not take birth, and does not die. If you worship shaligram without this knowledge then you are not performing any worship, instead you are committing crimes. And there is no reason to forget to meditate on him on other days. ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥ You throw away all other lunar days (when you could be worshipping Krishna), and you say that Krishna was born on this particular lunar day, on the Janam Ashtami. (They pull out a shaligram and set it up and say "today Thakur was born") ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ You are lost, you have forgotten and your talk is weak and frail. Krishna does not take birth nor does he die. ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥ After making Panjiri and you feed it to the Shaligram, you are a thief. Krishna does not take birth nor does he die, you filthy animal! ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥ (Since you do not understand that he does not take birth ) when you sing lullabies to this Shaligram that is a crime for you. (This is not worship. You are swimming around in filth, in ignorance) ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ May that mouth burn which says Krishna takes birth. ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ He does not take birth, nor does he die, he does not come and go in reincarnation. Guru Arjun Dev ji says my master is permeating in all places.

my dear Ragmaala, His soul never left the body. Spirit and matter are one, and united. When we have out of body experiences. It's not like we leave the body. To leave the body is death. The body will stop functioning and start to decompose. In out of body experience or what is called astral travel, there is perception of things out side of the body because the spirit extends out to infinity. So Suleman's consciousness expands outside of the womb and he can interact with people and things outside but he is also in the body. If you do an out of body experience, to you it will seem as if you are outside the body, because you are perceiving things from the outside. Perception is always localized. In order to have perception the field of consciousness has to become localized -> called Locus of Consciousness. In our body this locus exists at the eyes. And in meditation we can practice and move it around the body and even outside the body. Thus we'll feel as if we exist in the stomach or outside the body. However that is only the locus, our consciousness is as much inside the body as it is outside. Spirit limits itself to a location and thus there is perception. When spirit no longer limits itself then there is no perception. That is known as a Sunya Smadhi. You have withdrawn from perception and you exist as only spirit.

@Ragmaala He is just having fun. We are not talking about objects. According to Guru Granth Sahib, Hari exists everywhere. How can you have a creation and not have Hari in it? Hari is supreme consciousness. Consciousness extends out as an infinite field over all of creation and permeating it. This is how I would answer this question seriously - The gurus came in the cycle of births and death due to their will and not because they were attached. They were free to do as they liked. And if they were ignorant in previous births, I don't know if they were but if they were and were compelled due to previous attachment then while they were alive they cultivated a state of detachment and detached themselves from the compulsion to take birth, and thus merged with the supreme consciousness that is Hari. And this is the difference between Karm and Nehkarm as well. Nehkarm are still karm but they have been performed with detachment, with freedom from outcome. And thus such freedom from outcome transforms the nature of doing into being. It changes the quality of the karm. One transcends past conditioning in this way and obtains the supreme state. But this is just words. One would have to meditate and experience such freedom for themselves. And then they will find out very how this freedom changes their entire life and transforms it into this "supreme state". If Gurus Avtar also comes into cycle birth & death then what is the difference ? If an avtar also has to see womb, then what is the additional benefit ? Also I must say this question assumes that there is an inherent negative quality about being born in a womb. While the gross fluids of the womb do make it unpleasant. Nobody remembers that. Who cares. What is problematic about life is that there is suffering that is unbearable. People say - "I am suffering too much. I cannot bear this." Guru Sahibs answer - If you meditate on Hari then you will be free from such unbearable suffering. People say - "This is too much for me. I wish I would die so that I don't have to go through this" Guru Sahibs answer - You are too attached to the body and experience so if you kill yourself, you are still going to return to this exact same experience you are having now because you are attached to such experience. You will come back through the womb and have this experience. So do meditation on Hari and cultivate states of detachment so that you no longer have to return to the womb and experience it. Short form -> ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਬਸੈ ॥ People then twist that up and get confused. They start asking stupid questions like if what is different if Avtars also came from the womb. Then all the Mahapurush collectively do a facepalm, and give these people an answer to distract their monkey mind so that they can finally start doing some bhagti. And later people start quoting those same Mahapurush about stuff they said earlier. These people have no understanding and they are further confused. Instead of finding out what the Mahapurush were talking about for themselves what is different about a regular person and an avtaar through doing bhagti. They just attach themselves to words. Btw Baba Nand Singh ji is sitting up there laughing at me for even attempting to rectify this. Whoever that is, he says that I am too attached to making things right and I should just let it go and let it be as it is.

@Ragmaala I have seen the video by Sadhguru and I don't think you understood him. As for the Sikh brahmgyanis, I don't know what those Brahmgyanis were talking about because you still haven't put up the relevant quotes from them, as I asked for in the previous thread. But I'll tell you what I think. I believe that what you are calling the soul or what I call the spirit of the body is the guiding process for the creation of the body. The spirit is the information field which causes the material in the fetus to organize itself. It is due to this field that the processes read certain parts of the DNA in order to create the protein necessary to build the body. In the video below, you can see how the iron filings organize themselves when placed under a magentic field. Similarly the body is organized by the information field, which is known as the spirit or Atma. So it is present in the womb right from the start and it organizes matter into a body. Does a spirit enter into a body? This spirit is not something that enters into the body or the womb. It is there from the start. It develops a sense of self at some point, it starts to become conscious, and sure that might happen after 48 days or 90 days or after birth. But that information field is there right from the start and it is the guiding force of creation of the body and of creation itself - ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ In case of an avtaar, an incarnation of Hari, the greater information field organizes a body for its purpose. It recognizes itself (ਅਹੰ) as the greater information field (ਅਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰ ਆਸ੍ਮਤਿ), it is aware of itself as the awareness in all beings (ਸੋਹੰ). An avtaar is the spirit of the universe (a collective spirit) organizing a body for its purpose, as opposed to any individual smaller spirit organizing a body.

@Lucky To go beyond the five elements doesn't mean you abandon them and go into lala land where you are made of fairy dust. The reality of life, the laws set up by Hari will still remain even after you transcend them. You will die if you get run over by a truck. You will get fat if you eat too much food. You will become tired if you exercise too much. You will get injured if someone slashes you with a knife. To put it bluntly for those over 25 - Once you become enlightened you will still have to have sex with a woman to produce a child. You can't chant some mantras and start ejaculating little babies. However when you do chant mantras, the nature of sex is transformed into something different. This is for you to find out as you do your spiritual practice.

This is simply a misunderstanding of verses such as - ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਬਸੈ ॥ - and taking them out of context. Everyone comes from the womb, even special people. And there is always intercourse of some kind that is involved in the creation process. Even our father, Hari, is referred to as - ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ - one who has sex with Shri, matter, that which is material and physical has been penetrated by the spirit that is Hari. The universe is a mix of spiritual and physical. He is the spirit of the universe, the supreme consciousnss. This is why he is known as the husband of Maya Lakshmi. ਮਾਧਵ - ਮਾਯਾ ਦਾ ਧਵ/ ਪਤੀ - the one who is the husband of Maya/matter/ ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ - ਕਮਲਾ ਦਾ ਪਤਿ - the husband of Kamla/ Lakshmi/ matter. The spirit is the husband of the material and physical. This is why he is known as ਨਰਾਇਣ , one who dwells inside of man ਨਰ. And that which dwells in man dwells everywhere else as well. ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ This is why he is known as the Pran Adhar, the basis of life. ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥ Narayan is the very base on which your life is seated, without Narayan, consciousness, there would be no experiences to be had. ਆਪੇ ਅੰਡਜ ਜੇਰਜ ਸੇਤਜ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਆਪੇ ਖੰਡ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ ॥ Guru Sahib explains the ways Hari is born - (ਅੰਡਜ ਜੇਰਜ ਸੇਤਜ ਉਤਭੁਜ) consciousness is born in the eggs, born in the wombs, born in dampness, and sprouts up from the soil. He is the ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ - that one who dwells in all things. (ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ) He is in all the realms. Hari penetrates everything. So if Guru Sahibs are Hari swaroop ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥, then they too were born from the womb as Hari creates, were they not? Guru Angad Dev ji prays - ਮਾਤ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਦੇ ਤਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੇ ॥ In the mother's womb, you gave us your simran and protected us. ਪਾਵਕ ਸਾਗਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਹਿ ਤਾਰਹੁ ਤਾਰਨਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ Through the countless waves of the ocean of fire, please, carry us across and save us, O Savior Lord! ||1|| ਮਾਧੌ ਤੂ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ਧੋਰਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Madhav, you are are my master. You are my support here in this world and there in the next.

Yea your eyes will naturally go where you place your dhyan, if you place it on your torso or legs, they will look down. If you place it on oyur head or above your head, they will look up. If you place your dhyan in the eyelids or in front of you, they will look straight. As long as they are not strained, you are good to go. Yea there are many places you can place your dhyan and practice concentration. You can concentrate on - the tip of your nose - the air going in and out of your nose - the sound vibration as you hear it - the rise and fall of your stomach - an image your are imagining - anything - even elements and visualizations... So there are many ways to meditate, even meditating on an element is just practicing of dhyan and attuning yourself with what you are meditating on. If you are outside, one thing you can do is to try to place your dhyan in a tree, in the air or wind, in the water bodies, etc. Pull the dhyan way from the body and yourself and bring it into the tree. Become one with what you are meditating on. Get comfortable and try to move your locus of awareness into the tree. Be the tree. Your grandpa is someone I would like to meet and discuss with. Where does he live? It's important to be clear about what you have an experience with and what you have heard or read. Also many spiritual folks watch a lot of dharma talks on youtube or listen to katha, etc. For each hour of katha you listen to, you should do several hours of meditation and experience the things described in the spiritual lecture. However they do not follow those up with practice. They don't try to experience and yet still talk about such things as if it was their experience. Those that say they heard it somewhere are better off because they are being honest about their approach to this. however they are still worse off than those are actually practicing and trying to achieve those states What they think they are doing is preventing their ahankar from rising. And there is some truth to that because ahankar can flair up when someone talks about themselves. But what they are actually doing is preventing any sort of analysis in to what they are experiencing. They might get criticized by some so they are preventing their ahankar from getting hurt by criticism. If you don't share your experience, no one can help you progress. If someone is more advanced than you, they will be able to see where you stand and where you need to go and how to get there, simply by getting a good account of your experiences. There is tremendous learning potential from sharing experiences, but it's important to share with those whom you trust. You can talk about what you know and what you have heard, as long as you are clear about the distinction. There is belief and then there is knowledge. People are not clear about the distinction between the two. They confuse beliefs for knowledge. I think your grandpa and I would have some interesting conversations.

Those were the last set of questions. Clearing up Misconceptions about Agya Chakra meditation I'll tell you why I am asking such questions. I believe that it is not because of meditating on Agya chakra too early that you got a headache and such. And it's not an imbalance in the pavan. It's because your muscles in your face, your jaw muscles and maybe even your neck muscles are tightening up during your meditations on the agya chakra. I used to meditate on the agya chakra a lot and I would feel a pressure in my head between my eyes. My eyes were not straining but I felt a pressure. I thought "cool! my third eye chakra is activating". thus for many years I mistook the pressure in the forehead as the third eye chakra activating. Now the pressure is in the same region as the third eye however when a chakra is working properly you should ideally feel nothing. It is when the chakra is not working properly do you ever feel the chakra. One day I accidentally noticed that if I loosen my jaw everytime there is pressure in the sinus region, then the pressure will go away. I thought it was just a conincidence at first. But everytime I got pressure in that region, I just loosened my jaw and it would go away. Evertime. Muscle Tightness causes Pressure Tightness in the jaw can cause such pressure when you are meditating. It's either the jaw or other muscles in the face that become tight and they cause that pressure feeling. Sinus infection can also cause such pressure it but I didn't have that and if you don't then it is this tightness and tension in the face that is causing the pressure. Btw do you see why you would find it difficult to breath and get a headache if some of the muscles in your face, jaw and neck are tight? It is important to loosen all these muscles by proper stretching (yes you can stretch and loosen your jaw muscle). I think while meditating we tend to strain our facial muscles, by putting in effort into the dhyan. Some people even up straining their eye muscles. Your eyes should be relaxed and still while you meditate. The movement of your eyes is unimportant what matters is where your attention is, what matters is where you are concentrating. How do you know where you dhyan/attention is? You should not need to do this. You should not strain your eye muscles ever. That can cause problems. Keep your eyes relaxed and still, and if they get tense then loosen them up by rolling your eyeballs around and stretching all the muscles. Stop looking with your eyes, instead try to develop an awareness of your entire body, of each limb, each area of the torso where we describe the chakras to be, each finger, etc, without physically looking there. You know the shape of your body and you should be able to tell where you are focusing in on the body. meditating on the body is whole different field of meditation. However for naam japna, just do a basic body scan, and become aware of the shape of the body and then go back to focusing on the mantra. That's only if you want to focus on a body part while naam japna. This is not a requirement. Naam japna can be done with full concentration in the dhwani, the vibration of it. Other variations include - - Becoming aware of the sound vibration as it vibrates in the body. - Chanting with others and focusing on the entire dhwani/vibration generated by everyone instead of just your own. How do you know if you are meditating on a chakra? There are many ways of meditating on chakra. But what I consider the highest meditation, mastery level, is to dwell in the region of the chakra. To be able to move the locus of your awareness to those regions. What is a locus of awareness? locus of consciousness? It is the seat of consciousness in the body. The default position for it is in the head, in the agya chakra. When you are able to concentrate well enough, you can move this seat into your belly, your heart, your feet, etc. Then it will seem as if you are located in your belly and your head is above you. You can even move this locus of awareness above your head, and outside of the body. When you do that then it is known as an Out of Body Experience.

That's not surprising. Those two things are connected. Pressure that is experienced during the agya chakra meditation is connected to the inhibition in the ability to breath and with headaches. But it is not the meditation that causes this, at least not directly. Where was the headache located? Which areas hurt? or which areas hurt the most?

Oh you got a bad headache from doing so. Gotcha. What confused me about your condition was when you said your "dhyan got stuck there" Ok you felt pressure. "Dhyan got stuck" is probably not the right language when describing this. When your dhyan sticks, that's a good thing lol. Everybody is trying to get the dhyan to stick but it doesn't, that's the problem! They need to train their dhyan so it sticks! I got what you are saying, you felt pressure in your forehead and you got a headache from that. Was there any mental imbalance aside from the physical pain? Or was it just pressure and headache?

Lol I was thinking you were experiencing this below - If not that then... What do you mean by this? The way I see it, the locus of our consciousness is already located at the Agya chakra. So what was different about this episode? Was your attention pulled away from your body and into it? which caused you to not experience your body and ONLY experience the chakra?

True story lol. But she is spiritual herself so she eventually got what I was talking about.... I think.

ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਸੋਹੀ ਜੋ ਰਾਮ ਰਚੇ ਰਾਖਾ You mean your eyes kept staring at the forehead? And that caused a severe head-ache?

For a sikh of Guru Granth Sahib, this article should be easy to break apart. Guru Nanak Dev ji had a snake shading him when he was young. Rai Bhullar could have thought that was a demonic scene but not he connected the snake to spiritual state, and considered it a spiritual event. Bhagat Prahlad ji saw a scary man-lion beast when he was very young. And Guru Granth Sahib tells us that this was God himself - ਓਇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਭੇਵ ॥ He is the Supreme Soul, the Deva of Devas, God of Gods. For His bhagat, He took the form of Narsingh, half man half lion. ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋ ਲਖੈ ਨ ਪਾਰ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਾਰ ॥੫॥੪॥ Kabir ji says "No one can understand His limits. He has saved Prehlaad many times" My mom thought I was doing drugs back when I first started having spiritual experiences. To those who are worldly, spiritual states always appear strange and they might relate it more to worldly things, whereas the real cause of your strange behaviour may entirely be spiritual. So let's be honest, from what we know of spirituality, these verses actually clear up that Muhammad ji was enlightened because these prove that he is experiencing the divine! In Guru Granth Sahib, this is known as Anhad Naad, which may sound like air, a plain tone or a bell-ringing type. Kabir ji describes it as the Kinguri, which is a string instrument. It can be described in various ways. It is represented by a conch shell, a shankh, in the images of the all-pervading Vishnu ji. Kabir ji says - ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਨਹਦ ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ ਬਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਨਾਦ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ In the meditation on King Ram, there is the Unstruck melody of the Kinguri. By His kind gaze, we are attuned to this vibration, this Naad. So he was shook by an intense spiritual experience. Also this means that his consciousness, chit, was sensitive enough to pick up on spiritual forces. And thus he is not just sensing angels but also demons. One of which tries to trick him. Anyways he did not trust these experiences at first, he had his doubts as anyone would. But later it was confirmed that they were of divine origin. So after the squeezing experience the angel returns and explains to him that he is a prophet of God. Above I bolded the relevant bits. But I found something interesting in the first line quoted again below. In Guru Granth Sahib, this type of divine-induced sadness is called Vairaag. So let's not start concluding from faulty reasoning that the prophets of other faiths were possessed with demons, when the prophets of our faith are explaining all the symptoms of Spiritual Enlightenment in Guru Granth Sahib. Those sikhs who have practiced what the Guru has taught will easily recognize the symptoms of Prophet Muhammad ji as spiritual states. Guru Ram Das ji expressed this divine-induced sadness as such - ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ In Rag Gaund, by Guru Ramdas. ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨ ਕਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਤਪਤੈ ਜਿਉ ਤ੍ਰਿਖਾਵੰਤੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਨੀਰ ॥੧॥ My mind yearns so deeply for the vision of Hari, the way a thirsty man yearns for a drink of cool water. ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਲਗੋ ਹਰਿ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਹਮਰੀ ਬੇਦਨ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਪੀਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ My mind has been pierced by the arrow of His love; only He understands my pain, the pain I feel from having been separated from Him. ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਕੀ ਕੋਈ ਬਾਤ ਸੁਨਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਭਾਈ ਸੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਬੀਰ ॥੨॥ Whoever tells me stories of Hari, whoever talks about my Beloved, he is my brother, my true brother. ਮਿਲੁ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਖੀ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇ ਲੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਧੀਰ ॥੩॥ Come together my friends and sing the praises of my Lord, and listen to message of the patient Satguru. ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਹਰਿ ਆਸ ਪੁਜਾਵਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸਰੀਰ ॥੪॥੬॥ ਛਕਾ ੧॥ Guru Ramdas ji says, O Hari please fulfill our desires to unite with You. When we see You, when we get a glimpse of Your form, we find peace.

@Amarjeet Singh_1737 Where've you been bhaji? Welcome back!

@Lucky Let me know if you don't want to share those details. Don't leave me hanging.

You can say that 10 times more. Can you explain in detail? I am curious about how such things occur from a knowledge perspective. Where did you concentrate exactly? What was your experience of concentrating there? How did that experience change into a problem, a mental imbalance?

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਗਉੜੀ ॥ Raag Gaurhi kabir ji. ਕਿਆ ਜਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਤਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਭਾਉ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥ What use is chanting, penance, fasts and worship, to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality? of something other than the activity?. 1. ਰੇ ਜਨ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Hey folks, put your mind towards the Husband of Lakshmi. The Four-Armed Lord cannot be obtained through the intellect. Think about this. ਪਰਹਰੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਕਾਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਪਰਹਰੁ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ Set aside your greed and that display you make in front other people. Set aside your lust, anger and pride. 2. ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਬਧੇ ਅਹੰਮੇਵ ॥ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਹੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੩॥ Actions bind you to pride, and together you all worship representations without deep devotion in your thoughts 3. ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਭੋਲੇ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਰਘੁਰਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੬॥ Kabir ji says, He is only obtained through those actions, during which the mind is lovingly focused on Him. The innocent through love find the King of Raghus. 4. 3. Summary Here Kabir ji partially answers the previous shabad that innocent action is that which gets us closer to Ram. The innocence must be present, and cleverness must be shunned. Innocence takes us away from duality. Cleverness takes us deeper and deeper into duality. What is innocence? Innocence is without the sense of 'I'. Innocence is the intense focus on the activity without thoughts of anything else, as if nothing else matters during the activity. Kabir ji has been telling us so far that meditation on Ram is the way to go. Here he clarifies that if there is love of duality/if one is not focused completely then that meditation has no use. Then meditation is empty and without any deep meaning. So set aside anything that steals the value of your actions. Set aside greed, pride and false displays (sense of 'I'). Innocence is not greedy, proud or has any need to put up a front. Cultivate this innocence. Meditation loses it's value when one becomes trapped in pride. One says, "I do meditations and fasts" and when full of pride this devalues beneficial activities such as meditation, penance, fasts and worship. The idea is quite simple. You are doing these things to rid yourself of the 'I' so when you bring the sense of 'I' into your actions then you have devalued them. Don't be clever and claim that you performed those actions; maintain your innocence.

Visualization would be something else. I mean which element are we attuning to when focusing on a mental form? I think visualization is not connected to any elements (at least not without experience the element itself). When you said we attune to the air we breathe in order to attain smadhi, I thought you were also thinking of other elements in the body that we could attune to. But after giving it some thought. I don't think we attune to any elements exactly. We attune to our body, which is composed of 5 elements. In meditation we are largely attuning to the body. In order to connect to air or any other element, we would have to go outside and experience it. When we breathe we aren't attuning to the air but rather the repetition of the breath, the breathing cycle. Some people focus on the sound vibrations of the mantra as they hear it in their ear, others maybe quiet and focus on the sensation of air on the tip of their nose, others might watch the stomach rise and fall. But one could also focus on the nerves in the body and feel the entire body. Feel the aliveness in the body. This is something I do a great deal. I focus on the body form and bring it into sharp focus where I know exactly where my limbs are, all of them and I can feel their distinct shape. I slowly turn up the 'concentration nob' until the sensation of the body, the experience of the bodily shape, starts to turn into a fuzzy cloud. Then I focus on the fuzzy cloud body, until that starts to dissipate into nothing, where the body shape is completely out of focus. That then leaves me with no body as experience in my state of awareness, where I am present only in my head What is the next step for you? From where you are standing what it the step you must take to get to the next stage?

Ah ok I see what you mean. Perhaps attune might be a good word for this. How would this idea work with the other 4 elements? How do we attune ourselves to those elements in the body? How far along are you on this path? What are your goals? What are you aiming towards?

Exactly. Everyone and everything fails. Guru Tegh Bahadur ji puts it bluntly - ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੋ ਮਾਨਿਓ ਦੇਹ ਸੋ ਤਉ ਤੇਰਉ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਖੇਹ ॥ That stability you seek in bodies (and in the world), can never be found there, your body will soon become ashes. ਕਿਉ ਨ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਹਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਨਿਲਾਜ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ So then why don't you chant the name of Hari you foolish person? Why don't you seek stability where stability is actually found, in Hari? Godwara lol, God da dwar

I dunno if air can be mastered first. But I know it is very easy to tap into air, connect with it, and have it respond to your connection. In this video, Michael is demonstrating his connection with the air around him.