dalsingh101

I heard of a few youths cutting the halal chicken with the little kirpans on their saliees (thing to push hair in putka) in East London interestingly. I'm not surprised in one way because there is nothing but halal shops there. I don't particularly agree with it but it is very interesting to see youths try and resurrect a perceived puratan practice in this manner.

Cobblers. When the privileged can't be arsed, it says a lot. I see a strong analogy with working class whites and jats in cultural terms where there is a strong resistance and reluctance to educate yourself stemming from (different) deeply embedded cultural reasons. It's the culture that needs to change. That stupid attitude of unearned privilege and egotism that is generated from Jat culture these days. At least Jats used to work hard in the past, now they are generally lazy and have illusions of grandeur in their heads that they are all 'lords of the manor' or country squire types, when the reality is that many of their great grandparents generation used to have to take a little dope to graft all night to get crops in on time. Another case of flights of fancy that do not meet that thing called reality. FYI. Here ARE some people from peasant backgrounds who have bettered themselves through education in Panjab. They are the heads of sociology and Panjabi technical development in the university at Patiala, who are being interviewed here in Seattle after they had been called over by a few unis in the North American region.

Give it a test Suryadev. Try posting your very first Panjabi sentence in the thread.... aaawwww....it's like watching a child take their first steps.... awwww...

I wish I could download it to take home! sigh...

Download this unicode converter - you'll need it later! http://guca.sourcefo...lications/guca/ Also use this to practice your typing. The telephonic keyboard layout is the best in my opinion: http://g2s.learnpunj...org/unipad.aspx

Thanks for clarification brother. I was just anticipating the usual knee-jerk 'blame Bahmans for everything' reaction that usually gets thrown around when the subject is discussed, even though the Sikh 'caste system' is our own creation. However we got to where we have, what excuses people propagating that shite now? And singly out Ramgarhias, when you have the same shite going on in many other Gurdwaray (albeit in a subtle, insidious manner) is just lame. Just because one group of idiots post their casteism out in the open for all to see, it doesn't mean we ignore the hordes who are a bit more devious about it.

It is interesting to note that when Randhir Singh published Prem Sumarag (which McLeod later translated), he apparently expunged sections that dealt with consuming halal meat. Some Sikh researchers need to find and publish these missing sections just for interest. Personally I don't go near halal.

I find the idea that Mai Bhago is used in a symbolic way as a testy and harsh women by Muslim sources quite fascinating!

I don't know. How much can we really blame on outside influences for this. I mean look at how even now, after having dishes smashed over their heads about it, the casteists are trying to repackage their nonsense as 'tribal' identities. First thing to notice is the pure vehemence with which people defend the preservation of a 'tribal' or 'caste' based organisation of the Punjabi based panth. It is SO pervasive. Only the other week in my local supermarket no less, I was being tilled up by a cool auntie Ji and we got chatting and when I passed my debit card over she goes (discreetly) "Oh, you know I hadn't heard about THAT surname until recently you know, I didn't know that that was a.........<here she tapered off but was clearly referring to caste> I told her that people get too preoccupied with such things and they shouldn't matter. To which this otherwise nice auntie ji got all weird and defensive. I've had apnay fudus, who I have just met, bringing up their caste in conversations with me within a single minute of talking. 2/3 times as a teacher. Once randomly at Gravesend train station! 3 - 4 times by girls I've just met. The fact is that every last one of them was Jatt. One outside source that I would agree has played an enormous part in the calcification of casteism in Panjabi Sikhs is via the British colonial experience. The Anglo tendency to reduce all things to race, class etc. etc. is not unknown and shelves of libraries can be filled with academic studies of the subject - but still, it looks like our own lot (mostly our peasantry) have absorbed these outside classifications/ideas (i.e. martial races theory, Aryan invasion etc.) without giving wider thought to their background and implications to wider Sikh society. I do believe that groups like those nonPanjabi Sikhs you mentioned can help play a big part in helping us overcome this ugly, pendu, feudal albatross on Sikhi's neck.

Not at all, if anything it was a high period for them where they could flout Sikh 'royalty' even throwing clumps of mud at Ranjit Singh to bring him back to earth. By all accounts they were well respected by the common Sikh populace. I don't know what you mean by cool, but I do think Akalis held people in awe (and I presume some fear) back then. Even whitey noticed it. This is really noticeable in vol 2 of Panth Prakash even though Bhangu seems conflicted about it. He bigs up Jatts at a lot of opportunities but can't get away from the obvious esteem Sukha Singh was held in by his own family. Interestingly, Tarkhans don't seem to have starting doing that type of thing along caste lines until way after the 'annexation'. We know that Brits had difficulties recruiting them into the armies due to insufficient wages (as explicitly mentioned by Falcon). So it looks like pre-annexation some caste fissures were already showing but even then Sikh society was more 'flat' than post annexation when they decided to patronise (in both senses of the word) Jats. Yes they did. If you look at the earliest Persian references to him, he is called Jassa Singh Thoka, where 'thok' is a Panjabi word akin to the English 'thump', and a usually interpreted as a direct reference to hammering. What do you mean by 'their recent history' in this context? Only if you persist in asking the questions to ignorant pendus.

Cool! Looks like we are on track with verse 1! As for the word kaalja, I agree it means heart here, but it can also mean liver. Check on the online dictionaries if you don't believe me! As for THE (old school and slightly sleezy song) which popularised the word over the more often used 'dil' in the UK, cop a load of this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0lA3loQ7bI Ahhh.....memories......more innocent times... Anyway shera, we'll come back to fine tuning verse later (maybe when we go over teh whole thing again at the end?). Now on to verse 2! Which I took the liberty of completing (as you were so slow! lol).I took feedback off your partially completed one and adjusted mine accordingly. Unknown words are in red:

Well, what does it say when the better off actual 'high castes' are actually doing worse than the so called 'low caste' students! Personally I think there is a strong anti intellectual, unearned privilege, lazy spoil-brat mentality inculcated Panjabi peasant culture that produces hordes of pendus like this. Like the guys from back home you frequently meet in Gurdwaras whose families own x acres of land but who couldn't be bothered to pay attention in school and end up here looking to be labourers or truck drivers. PS - Zulu, there is now space in my inbox.

Start by downloading some fonts - especially unicode ones! Try here: http://learnpunjabi.org/pr.htm

http://www.sikhnet.com/news/only-72-rural-sikh-students-reach-college

LOL!!! Where in Canada you going?

Funny I was thinking something similar after reading Panth Prakash! Why has Jassa Singh Ramgarhia been lionised by Tarkhans more than Sukha Singh, who appears to have been a top ranked fighter/leader of his time?

That is just one example of how Orientalism works. Orientalism covers all studies of the 'orient' by the 'occidental' west. What Edward Said says (in the original work) is that he believes that whilst SOME progression might have taken place with the orientalism of Africa and say India, the one that remained the most retrogressive and obstinate was that towards Islam and Arabs. He says that the kind of racist comments that were commonly made about everyone (for example Jews, Arabs and Blacks) in past orientalism has shifted with only Muslims/Arabs being on the receiving end of the more stereotype statements. Personally I just feel that western orientalists have just learned to use more subtle language to mask their underlying notions of supremacy. For me W. H. McLeod was a text book modern orientalist on Sikhs. In my view the different ologies now represent different developments in orientalism and have their own flavour (or style of attack). Said makes the point that the economic and strategic importance of the Arab territory gives the orientalism from there its own agenda and importance to the westerners who want to dominate the region economically and culturally.

And you can't keep ignoring criticism just because it happens to point at your own community. Will take that attachment home and read it.

Okay, our latest joint version of verse 1: ਲੱਸੀ ਚਾਹ ਨੂੰ ਕਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ: ਮੈਂ ਸੋਹਣੀ, ਮੈਂ ਗੋਰੀ ਗੋਰੀ, ਤੂੰ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਲਵਟੀ! ਮੈਂ ਨੀਂਦਰ ਦਾ ਸੁਖ ਸਣੇਓੜਾ – ਤੂੰ ਜਗਰਾਤੇ ਪੱਟੀ। ਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਮੈਂ ਚਾਈਂ ਚਾਈਂ ਚੰਨੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਛਲਕਾਂ, ਕਿਹੜਾ ਸਾਂਭੇ ਮੇਰੀਆਂ ਲਿਸ਼ਕਾਂ, ਕੌਣ ਸੰਭਾਲੇ ਡਲ੍ਹਕਾਂ। ਰੰਗ ਮੇਰਾ ਵੀ ਮੱਖਣ ਵਰਗਾ, ਰੂਪ ਵੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਸੁਚਾ, ਦੁੱਧ ਮਲਾਈ ਮਾ ਪਿਓ ਮੇਰੇ – ਮੇਰਾ ਅਸਲਾ ਉਚਾ। ਜਿਹੜਾ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਰਿੜਕਣ ਬੈਟੇ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਵਾਰੀ ਜਾਵਾਂ, ਕੜਕੇ ਢੋਲ ਮਧਾਣੀ ਵਾਲਾ, ਮੈਂ ਵਿਚ ਭੰਗੜੇ ਪਾਵਾਂ। ਮੈਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੇਹਤ ਬਣਾਂਵਾਂ, ਓਹ ਤੂੰ ਵੀ ਸੇਹਤ ਬਿਗਾੜੇ, ਮੈਂ ਭੀ ਠੰਢ ਕਲੈਜੇ ਪਾਵਾਂ ਤੂੰਭੀ ਸੀਨੇ ਸਾੜੇ॥ Lassi said to tea: I’m beautiful, I’m fair, so fair. You are a dark misery. I’m the peaceful message of sleep – whilst you uproot throughout the night – not sure of how to translate patti here? And when I cheerfully spill forth in the moonlight, who will care for my glitter, who will preserve my lustre? Sounds like chien chien to me plus the meaning corresponds to the earlier use of liskhaan! And my complexion is like butter, my form too is pure. Milk and cream are my father and mother – my pedigree is exalted I am a sacrifice to those who sit and churn me; the drum of the churning stick booms and I dance within – not sure of vari jaavaan here, used ‘vari jana’ as in ‘a sacrifice to’ from the PU online dictionary I make folks healthy, O where you ruin health, I bring a coolness to the heart, whereas you’ve scorched bodies – I think kaleja can also mean liver

By the way: Your transcription attempt: - ਚਾਹ ਕਹਿੰਦੀ ਪੈ ਗਈ ਏਨੀ ਮਾਈ ਭੱਗੋ, ਮੇਰੇ ਮੱਗਰ ਤਗਾਣੇ, ਤਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਰਖੀਆ ਭਰਦੇ ਜਿਹੜੇ, ਉਹੋ ਲੋਕ ਸਿਆਣੇ, ਮੇਰਾ ਹੁਸਨ ਪਛਾਨਨ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਦਿਲ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਠਗਾਂ, ਮੇਰਾ ਰੰਗ ਕਲਿੱਖਨ ਉੱਤੇ ਲਈਲਾ ਵਰਗਾ ਲੱਗਾ Here's mine: ਪੈ ਗਈ, ਪੈ ਗਈ ਇਹ ਨੀ ਮਾਈ ਭਗੋ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਗਰ ਤਗਾਣੇ, ਤੇ ਮੇਰੀਆਂ ਸੁਰਕੀਆ ਭਰਦੇ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਉਹੁ ਲੋਕ ਸਿਆਣੇ। ਮੇਰੇ ਹੁਸਨ ਪਚਾਣਨ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਦਿੱਲ ਮੈਂ ਓਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਠੱਗਾਂ, ਮੇਰਾ ਰੰਗ ਕਲਿਕਰ ਉੱਤੇ- ਲੈਲਾਂ ਵਰਗੀ ਲਗਾਂ।1.38 ਤੇ ਪਿੰਡੇ ਦੀ ਮੈਂ ਪੀੜ ਗਵਾਵਾਂ ਜਦੋਂ ਥਕੇ ਮੈਂ ਪੋਰਾਂ, ਤੇ ਠਰੇਆਂ ਹੋਏਆਂ ਚੂਸੇਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੈਂ ਮਿੱਠੀਆਂ ਕਰਾਂ ਟਕੋਰਾਂ।1.43 ਤੂੰ ਇਹ ਕੰਘ, ਜ਼ੁਕਾਮ ਤੇ ਨਜ਼ਲਾਂ ਕੀ ਮੈਂ ਗਿਣ ਗਿਣ ਦੱਸਾਂ, ਮੇਰੇ ਨਿਗੇ This is just a heads up for later. Finish your Gurmukhi transliteration it, but we wont get into verse 2 fully until we've nailed verse 1! We'll do this systematically. I finding this a very good way to increase vocabulary myself (especially colloquial terms). This way seems more productive than what we were doing before with randomly listing unconnected words in that vocabulary thread we had going on a while back. What you think?

What an awesome find! You should scan or photo it and turn it into an ebook one day! I've got this massive old dictionary as well. Did you get this from your moms too? I take it your mum is from back home, I thought you was 3rd generation with vlathee parents before. Now I understand! Okay I'll listen again later tonight more carefully and check. See above. Don't be scared. It's not any gay shit! lol I was talking about compulsively pursuing a subject ala Freud - Read this.

I don't blame them (or anyone for that matter) for not wanting to be dominated myself. Plus when you talk to people who don't like Jatt domination, it isn't because they are just perceived to be thick or block headed, but rather because of obnoxious, supercilious, dismissive, exclusionary attitudes they experience. So it's no surprise people do their own thing. Instead of blaming people for this, why not point the finger at the real cause i.e. obnoxious and exclusionary attitudes by people hell bent on creating a caste system within Sikhi and placing themselves at the apex. This blatant ignoring of Sikhi's egalitarian streak is unforgivable and causes most of this crap imho. Also I too think that the whole Ramgarhia gurdwara thing started in Africa, not India.

Chatanga, you're a gem! (1)I still can't find a definition of kalvutti??? Where did you get 'misery, distress' from ? (2)Also we need to nail this word[s?] ਨੀਂਦ ਦਰਦਾ - Have I got it wrong? Is he saying something else? (3) What about ਸਣੇਓੜਾ ? Is it possible related to ਸਨੇਹ = love, affection, friendship, attachment, sympathy, tenderness ?? (4) Why do you think it is ਜਾਈਂ ਜਾਈਂ and not ਚਾਈਂ ਚਾਈਂ which is apparently an adjective meaning = cheerfully, eagerly, fervently, warmly I want us to be technical to an anally retentive extent about the words here, not vague about the meanings. lol. It's my own form of OCD I guess, but it is the best way to really nail the language, so endure! Storing these words for when we deal with them, great finds man!! ਕੁੜੱਤਣ - bitterness ਡਲ਼੍ਹਕ - glitter, shine, sheen, lustre, radiance; pain or fatigue in the eye when exposed to strong light What you think? We'll deal with verse 2 after we nail this one. I had a look at your transcription (of verse 2) earlier and it looks good!