dalsingh101

What about Suraj Prakash or Panth Prakash (Bhangu), are they relatively straight forward Panjabi to you too?

I read Dalrymple's 'The Last Mughal' recently and was kind of surprised at the general portrayal of Sikhs in it. Not very positive. Being a Moghulophile seems to have effected his opinion on apnay. Was also surprised to read of whitey's savage reprisals, given that they like to make themselves out to be so noble all the time. Interesting stuff. Anyway, thought I'd start a thread where we could drop contemporary quotes regarding Sikhs during the 'mutiny'. Enjoy:

I notice the language is very strongly Panjabi - even seems a bit modernish too at places. Kahn Singh Nabha doesn't think it is a composition of dasam pita. Mahan Kosh say defines it as such: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਖਾਸ ਬੀੜ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਰਚੀ ਹੋਈ ਇੱਕ ਬਾਣੀ, ਜੋ ੪੩ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਹੈ.

Great stuff neo!! I downloaded them and look forward to hearing these.

Thank you bhai ji! Shame there isn't a tatkara though. lol Update: Found the tatkara - it's on pg. 537 (in case anyone else wants to find it).

I found the complete text in the online Suraj Prakash at ik13.com. I love that those guys have posted PDF Mahan Kosh and SPG, but you can't simply copy and paste Gurmukhi text from them as they come out as Chinese characters! Even trying to convert them to unicode doesn't help. Searching is pretty difficult to. Oh well, still, mustn't grumble. Anyway, I had to type it out. What we find is that (probably not too surprisingly) Ganda Singh seems to have sort of whitewashed some of the original context of the text that I posted above (from his edition of Sainapati's Gursobha). I'm not surprised at such stuff any more, and sort of half expect it from Singh Sabha exponents (remember the thread about Bhai Vir Singh's editing of Panth Prakash). Of historical interest would be the way the text seems to preserve the original bujjar kureit against sang with sullian - if the text is anything to go by, bhog with nonMuslian appear to be considered a lesser offense? Seeing as the SIngh Sabha lehar was to alter the bujjer kureit against physical relations with sulliah to one that encompassed all contact outside of marriage with the publication of the Rehat Maryada, it's no surprise that Prof. Ganda Singh didn't fully quote the text in Gursobha. The sakhi from SPG is very interesting. We can trace it's movement and development a bit. It starts of as the small sakhi in dasmesh pita's contemporary Sewa Das's 'Parchian', in the form of the Sakhi of the brother who came wailing into Guru ji's darbar after having been captured by sullay and forcibly had his kesh cut, and was fed Muslim meat and circumcised (ouch!) etc. Then he is reassured that he hasn't been made a sullah because he refrained from willingly having sex with a sulli etc. etc. In parchian the Sakhi is pretty short. It next seems to appear in the infamous 'Sau Sakhi' around the middle of the 1800s. Here it's significantly elaborated upon and extra dialog appears which give more detail about why physical relations with a 'Turkni' are so seriously prohibited, with the passage where Singhs ask about retaliating to sullah balathkaars in kind. Then it appears in Suraj Prakash Granth which was also apparently composed by the mid 1800s by the famous Santokh Singh but really became known amongst the Sikh masses after Bhai Vir Singh published his annotated edition between 1927-35. Judging by Attar Singh's English translation of Sau Sakhi (published in 1873), the texts in the Sau Sakhi and SPG appear to be identical or verbatim. Anyway here's my attempt at translation, you can compare to Attar Singh's earlier version through the scribd link below (its sakhi 32 on pg. 66). Attar Singh was obviously highly intelligent and a very competent linguist by the looks of things. He seems to have mastered the English language. Constructive feedback welcome as always. See Attar Singh's version here. It's in sakhi 32 on pg. 66.

I thought that too bro! But when I looked into it ਬਿਖੈ is actually an old form of vich or inside also (see below). If we could get a solid translation for ਪੁਚਾਵੈ it would help big time. However when I checked a few instances of the use of ਬਿਖੈ in Suraj Prakash, it was always as in 'inside', so for the moment we'll stick to that, but it could well be referring to poison? (1) ਵਿਸ਼ੇ। (2) ਵਿਚ, ਅੰਦਰ। (3) ਜ਼ਹਿਰ ਵਰਗੀ ਕੌੜੀ। (4) ਵਿਸ਼ੱਈ। (5) ਮਾਇਆ। (6) ਜ਼ਹਿਰੀਲੀ। (7) ਵਿਕਾਰ, ਔਗੁਣ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਭਗਤ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਖੈ ਅਧਾਰਾ॥ {ਦੇਵ ੫, ੨੦, ੨:੧ (532)}। ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਿਖੈ ਹੰਤ॥ {ਮਾਲੀ ੫, ੪, ੩:੪ (987)}। ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੋ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਮਾਨੈ॥ {ਗਉ ੫, ੮੨, SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary 1. var. 2. indecl. 1. from Bikha. 2. in, within SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA. Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਸੰ. ਵਿਸਯ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਦ੍ਵਾਰਾ ਗ੍ਰਹਣ ਯੋਗ੍ਯ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸਪਰਸ਼ ਆਦਿ. "ਬਿਖੈਬਿਲਾਸ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ". (ਟੋਢੀ ਮਃ ੫) "ਬਿਖੈ ਬਾਚੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਚੁ ਸਮਝੁ ਮਨ ਬਉਰਾ ਰੇ!" (ਗਉ ਕਬੀਰ)। (2) ਪਦਾਰਥ. ਭੋਗ ਦੀ ਵਸਤੁ. "ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਖੈ ਕੀ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਤਜੀਅ ਨਹਿ ਜਾਈ". (ਬਿਲਾ ਕਬੀਰ)। (3) ਕ੍ਰਿ. ਵਿ- ਅੰਦਰ. ਭੀਤਰ. ਵਿੱਚ. "ਜਲ ਤੇ ਉਪਜ ਤਰੰਗ ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਹੀ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ". (ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ).

I heard that some of the larger (unedited) Dasam Granth manuscripts have a worked called Sukhmana Sahib in them. Anyone know anything about this?

Found out what 'ਕਲ ਮਲ' means. ਪਾਪਾਂ ਦੀ ਮੈਲ, ਗੰਦਗੀ, ਬੁਰਾਈ, ਕਾਲਖ, ਬਦਫੈਲੀ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਕਲਿਮਲ ਡਾਰਨ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਧਾਰਨ ਇਹ ਆਸਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਤਰਨਾ॥ {ਦੇਵ ੫, ੧੬, ੧*:੨ (531)}। Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਸੰ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਪਾਪ. ਦੋਸ. "ਕਲਿਮਲ ਡਾਰਨ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਧਾਰਨ". (ਦੇਵ ਮਃ ੫). ------------------------------------------------------- Still can't figure out what ਪੁਚਾਵੈ means though?? Could it be a variant of ਪਚਾਵਣ as defined below? Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਕ੍ਰਿ- ਰਿੰਨ੍ਹਣਾ. ਗਾਲਣਾ। (2) ਨਾਸ਼ ਕਰਨਾ. ਭਾਵ- ਜਿੱਤਣਾ. "ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਚਾਵਣਿਆ". (ਮਾਝ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੩)। (3) ਹਜਮ ਕਰਨਾ. So we have to (1) ਰਿੰਨ੍ਹਣਾ - boil or decoct (2) ਗਾਲਣਾ - To melt, to decompose, to smelt, m t dissolve, to ruin, to decay, to spoil, to waste, to sink. ??? Also I find this line hard to understand? ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਬੂਝੇ ਗੁਨ ਖਾਨੀ। ------------------------------ Another attempt: Feedback???

I took it to be as in the modern ਤਾਂ or ਤਾਂਹੀਂ - as in 'that is why'

Edward Said – Orientalism (Introduction)

“History, unendingly revised and reinterpreted, is seen upon examination as merely a different class of fiction; becomes hazardous if viewed as having any innate truth beyond this. Still, it is a fiction that we must inhabit. Lacking any territory that is not subjective, we can only live on the map. All that remains in question is whose map we choose, whether we live within the world’s insistent texts or else replace them with stronger language of our own.” Alan Moore – Voice of the fire

Thanks for the tips guys. Just rechecked the OP and realised that I somehow missed out a bunch of lines in the quote. Sorry and doh! Here's the full thing: My stab at translating: ਜੋ ਤੁਰਕਣਿ ਸਿਖ ਭੋਗਹਿ ਜਾਇ । ਸੋ ਨਹਿ ਬਖਸ਼ਿਓ ਜਾਇ ਕਦਾਇ....॥ 13 ॥ Whatever Sikh ravishes a sulli That Sikh is never given blessings ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਬੂਝੇ ਗੁਨ ਖਾਨੀ। ਬ੍ਰਿੰਦ ਤੁਰਕ ਭੋਗੈਂ ਹਿੰਦਵਾਨੀ। Singhs understand that the Khans consider it to be meritorious [As] all of the sullay ravish Indian women ਸਿਖ ਬਦਲਾ ਲੇ ਭਲਾ ਜਨਾਏ। ਕਿਉਂ ਗੁਰ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਰਜ ਹਟਾਏ॥18॥ The Sikhs recognise the extraction of revenge to be a good [thing] So why does the Guru's teachings prohibit this? ਸੁਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੋਲੇ ਤਿਸ ਬੇਰੇ। ਹਮ ਲੇ ਜਾਨੋਂ ਪੰਥ ਉਚੇਰੇ। Listen to the Satguru speak on this matter I have recognised this way of life [Khalsa/Sikh] as an exalted one ਨਹੀਂ ਅਪਗਤਿ ਬਿਖੈ ਪੁਚਾਵੈ । ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਲ ਮਲ ਕਰਨ ਹਟਾਵੇ॥ I do not [condone] lowly behaviour within it (?? what does ਪੁਚਾਵੈ mean?) That it why I have prevented ਕਲ ਮਲ (??? what does ਕਲ ਮਲ mean?) Might be a while before I get back online to check feedback, but I will definitely be interested in getting to the bottom of this text, so your comments are appreciated.

Are they (the government) that desperate? lol Truth is that the UK can't survive without sulleh, what with the oil, the money they invest in the country and spend on luxury crap. I mean Arabs here, not Paks btw.

I was reading this A level Panjabi book I have at home yesterday, and it went into how it was a mistake to call the script that we use as 'Gurmukhi', as its origins were much older than the faith going into Prakrit and Brahmi. The writer expressed the opinion that the script was the natural one for the Panjabi language but its affiliation to the Sikh faith meant that it became point of contention between Panjabis of different faiths with their attaching to a particular script as a marker of identity. The guy also made the point that when nonSikh material is written using the script, like a play or even erotic texts, it gets affiliated to 'mouth of the Guru', which it shouldn't. I found the points interesting.

Shall I take the silence as an indication that the writing was of the crap variety?

Seriously? No one wants to help get it translated? lol

Some of you regulars will know that I’ve been on a mission to try and develop my Panjabi/Gurmukhi knowledge/ability of late. Here’s something that has emerged as a consequence of that endeavour. It WILL certainly be full of flaws, and it is in the very hope of possibly identifying and removing these flaws that I share this. So I would really appreciate any native Panjabi speaking/reading brothers or sisters scrutinising this piece and identifying areas of weaknesses. ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰਾਂ ਨੁਕਸ ਕੱਢੋ! I found aligning the gender of verbs and adjectives with nouns within longer sentences, more difficult that I had previously imagined it to be (the 2nd sentence in the piece represents a typical example of such difficulties for me), so I’m sure there are plenty of mistakes in that respect (at the very least). If you see mistakes, correct me and let me know how I should have wrote the offending phrase/sentence. Apart from that, on a wider level, how does it flow? Does it make its points clearly or are they on the ਅਸਪਸ਼ਟ side? How about the spelling? Is it oddly constructed (I’ve consciously used English language influences in the style)? Have I used the vocabulary correctly (i.e. ਉੱਸਰਨਾ, ਪੱਧਰ, ਫੁਰਨਾ, ਮਹੱਤਵਪੂਰਨ, ਮਹੱਤਵ, ਵਿਸਥਾਰ, ਜਾਪਦਾ, ਸੌਜਣਾ)? Respectfully expressed, constructive criticisms/suggestions are positively encouraged and considered an essential component to development!

NOTE: This thread was renamed to be a bit more sensitive about the subject. This brief extract from Bhai Santokh Singh’s Suraj Prakash (quoted in Ganda Singh’s Sri Gur Sobha) purports to be Dasmesh Pita’s response to queries regarding reprisals in kind, for the rape of Sikh women by Moghuls. Can we try a group consensus type translation folks? I’ve listed some of the words I found more difficult to understand below and offered definitions, but these are by no means carved in stone! It may help if people to have a look at the attachment I posted which gives definitions of some of the words from MK. Please contribute, especially ‘first language Panjabi’ speakers <ahem....ahem.....Mithar and Lal Singh>: It would be interesting to find the missing bits of the text around the first piece of the extract (the bit that goes ....ਸੋ ਨਹਿ ਬਖਸ਼ਿਓ ਜਾਇ ਕਦਾਇ....॥ 16 ॥, anybody????

Some interesting stats from Omissi’s study: Indian army recruitment November 18 by province*: (*These figures appear to refer to the provinces of British India only; but they seem to include recruitment to the Imperial Service Troops, as well as the Indian Army. Province Combatants Non-combatants Total Punjab 349,688 97,288 446,976 UP 163,578 117,565 281,143 Madras 51,223 41,117 923,40 Bombay 41,272 30,211 71,483 Bengal 7,117 51,935 59,052 NWFP 32,181 13,050 45,231 Bihar & Orissa 8,576 32,976 41,552 Burma 14,094 4,579 18,673 Assam 942 14,182 15,124 CP 5,376 9,631 15,007 Ajmer-Merwara 7,341 1,632 8,973 Baluchistan 1,761 327 2,088 Total: 683,149 414,493 1,097,642 Recruitment by class, Aug 1914 – Nov 1918 Punjabi Muslims 136,126 Sikhs 88,925 Gurkhas 55,589 Rajputs 49,086 Jats 40,272 Other Hindus 38,546 Hindustani Muslims 36,353 Pathans 27,857 Dogras 23,491 Brahmans 20,382 Ahirs 19,544 Gujars 18,296 Tamils 16,390 (Source VanKoski ‘The Indian Ex-soldier’)

This is very interesting Urdu letter sent by a Sikh police inspector in Panjab (Eshar Singh) to Jemandar (junior officer of infantry of cavalry) Jai Singh of the 6th Cavalry in France. It provides a clear insight into just how successfully colonial forces had entwined their own propaganda in relation to some men’s perceptions of the Sikh faith. Remember at this time, the Amrit ceremony used by the British for Sikh recruits interpolated vows of loyalty to the British monarchy. Despite the staggering simple mindedness on display here, it is worth remembering that other Sikh men, such as the Ghaddrites obviously didn’t swallow the imperialist version of Sikh identity. Contraband drugs seem to have been sought by at least some personnel. A number of letters request narcotics, providing advice on how to successfully hide the substances in packages. Presumably the availability of such substances was not unknown to the soldiers on the receiving end: Open western style relationships witnessed by the soldiers, who were accustomed to the conservative, restricted nature of interactions between genders in Panjab are commented upon a few times. It appears as if some soldiers viewed the practice of choosing one’s own partner favourably as can be seen below. Maharajah Ranjit Singh’s granddaughter, Sophia, makes contact with the Sikh soldiers: Comments about the education and treatment of daughters: The lack of literacy and reliance on outsiders to write is mentioned thus: Some men contracted venereal diseases: Sympathy to the Ghaddarites can be detected in this Urdu letter sent by a 3rd year Sikh student in Agra Chank. Men were under serious pressure to recruit back in Punjab: